progressive questions

[ID_shooting]

I have been reloading for many years, but have only done single stage reloading. My .38\.357 process is:

1. resize/deprime
2. tumble
3. clean primer pockets
4. trim
5. flare
6. re-prime
7. fill
8. seat
9. crimp

A friend of mine has an RCBS progressive press that he has never used. We want to sit down and knock out several thousand .38s and .357s. I have been studying the process. But I am left with a few things to ponder.

My questions are...

Do you tumble before you start working the press?
At what point do you trim?
When do you clean the primer pockets?
Do you crimp on a seperate press? There aren't enough stages to use my Lee FCD.
Single-stage affords many opprotunities to inspect the cases (typically at each seperate process for me). When do you typically inspect during multi-stage?

And finally, please describe your processes.

THANKS!

 

[halvey]

Do you tumble before you start working the press?

Yes.

At what point do you trim? When do you clean the primer pockets?
Do you crimp on a seperate press? There aren't enough stages to use my Lee FCD.

Why would you ever trim pistol brass? Why clean primer pockets. You can crimp on station 4. Ditch the Lee, get a Dillon 550 and be done with it.

When do you typically inspect during multi-stage?

After you drop the powder the first few times, if everything is ok, you don't have to.

Get the video Dillon puts out. For $5 I can't recommend it enough.

 

[caz223]

+1
(And why would somebody have a progressive press, and never use it?)

 

[CB900F]

ID;

Depends upon the situation. If I'm using brass that I've had all it's life it's tumble, dump the media, inspect, and load.

If it's brass that I've been given, scrounged, etc., then it's deprime & inspect, tumble & dump & inspect, inspect as I clean the primer pockets, run 'em through the case gauge, & then load.

For loads near max, ie combat/bear, I have a smaller set of cases that I use for those particular loads & change them out as necessary, say 5 reloads. But for general run-of-the-mill practice/plinker loads, it's just crank 'em out.

I use the Dillon RL550B to do so & have done so for years - and years. Decades even.

900F

 

[ID_shooting]

Why would you ever trim pistol brass? Why clean primer pockets. You can crimp on station 4. Ditch the Lee, get a Dillon 550 and be done with it.

Get the video Dillon puts out. For $5 I can't recommend it enough.

Well, uniform crimping and clean burn (translation - accuracy).

Besides, um, Just how does a Dillon press replace a Lee Factory Crimp Die?

But then, why on earth would I watch a Dillon video to learn how to run an RCBS press?

I really appriciate your time in responding, but I seriously wasn't looking for a Dillon comercial.

 

[vis35]

I think he may have thought that you had a Lee progressive press, they are not very well regarded (at least by myself, I know that others differ). I also feel that the Dillon is a better press than the RCBS (and I work at a shop where we only sell RCBS, how is that for an endorsement ) but if you all ready have it use it and it will produce good ammo.

As to trimming, trim your cases once to a standard length and I do not think you will have to do it again. The .38 special brass pretty much will not stretch and the .357 brass not much. I do not clean primer pockets; do not think it is worth the bother.

With range pick-up brass, I wash it in a bucket with hot water and a shot of dish soap, dry in a 200 degree oven and tumble and bag it up in Ziploc bags. This is with 9mm brass fired thru my Uzi SMG, I pick up mine and any else that is lying around; some is pretty grungy and muddy. With brass you fire in your own revolver and put back in the box you can skip the washing and even the tumbling.

 

[SASS#23149]

since there's two of you loading,put the fcd in a single stage and crimp 'em seperately.using the progressive you'll still be saving hours of time over your regular routine.I also like to crimp seperately,always have.
Curious just how much accuracy you strive for with your regimine of loading.Way more than most pistol reloaders go thru....not saying it's wrong,just a bit overboard for my tastes.I"m a 'crank 'em out and shoot 'em up' kind of guy.

 

[ID_shooting]

I think he may have thought that you had a Lee progressive press

I am certain that is the case; however, I find it rather annoying when somone asks a question about a process or how to use a specific tool and somone comes along and tries to turn it onto a "this product is better than that product" thread.

Anyway, back on topic.

90% of the brass we are going to use is once-fired factory. It was all fired by us out of different .357s. It has never been trimmed and of different manufacturers. I have noticed a severe difference in lengths and will need to bring them all to a uniform length to match what I have allready developed load data for. If the case is too long, then there may be too much crimp and over pressure could result.

As to accuracy, out of my 6in 686, I get right at 2 inches at 50 yards with the round I have done up, My wifes Blackhawk is just a smidge looser (both off of the bench). Good ballance between the two guns.

I believe that reducing the number of variables when reloading makes the ammo better quality. I get a MV of ~ 10 FPS with this load technique in my pistols and can get it down to ~ 5 in my riflles if I use only brass from the same manufacturer and sort it by wieght.

Very time invlolved process I know, but none of the people I shoot with worry about shooting my ammo in thier guns becuase they know my QC is so detailed.

 

[Grump]

I find it rather annoying when somone asks a question about a process or how to use a specific tool and somone comes along and tries to turn it onto a "this product is better than that product" thread.

Your question was a bit more broad that "how to use a specific tool". There are a large number of common elements to using any progressive. That said, and having spent a large amount of quality time with almost every progressive except yours and the 5-station ,,,,uh,,,the red one from the lock 'n load guys... here goes a post RESPONSIVE to your question.

Inspection--I start when I pick the stuff up. Quick check on casemouth and body scratches and flat primers. Any doubt, throw it out. Next quick inspection is when I pull them out of the tumbling media, but tumbling is generally once at the beginning of a batch of brass and not done again.

NEXT inspection is when Igrab them from the bin and get ready to put 'em in station one. Same routine, but the "inspection" includes how heavy the sizing resistance is (sudden increase can be overblown out brass), AND the primer seating resistance...too little means expanded primer pockets and I don't want those, either. Found one last night, in fact.

I'm not big on cleaning primer pockets, and will typically do it, if ever, only at the beginning of putting a batch into service. Have had only two batches ever need it anyway (one rifle and one .357 mag).

The roll crimp on .357 mags requires, as you know and is lost on some posting above, uniform case OAL. When I first put a batch into service, I trim them all (recently went to using the "nominal" rather than "trim to" length), which allows the detailed inspection you seem more accustomed to. THEN, I just keep the brass segregated by number of times fired since the trim. I'm on reload #3, so haven't re-trimmed yet and doubt that I will before retiring the stuff.

With some, I crimp on seating, but the .357 is one where I crimp on station 4. It really doesn't seem to make much difference when using uniform brass. Taper crimping auto pistol cartridges is no problem, and I load boattails on rifle so there's no flare to remove anyway on my match loads. I will crimp FMJBT loads, and toss 1-2% that are long and get shoulder-bumped--which illustrates the next inspection stage--EVERY STROKE OF THE PRESS. I can usually feel the difference between a stiff resize and a long case buckling under the crimp die, and just toss the bad ones as they happen. You come to know by handle position whether it's a cocked bullet on the case mouth or the station one case mouth hanging up on the bottom of the size die (most common hangups).

Last inspection is when I pull them out of the bin, loaded. Case neck splits can show up there, unless weak resistance to bullet seating alerts me early. Many of these "reject" moments are nothing more than noting what position and then pulling the case out when it cycles around to the kickout position.

If you insist on decapping before inspection and trimming and want to clean primer pockets, you can do the first batch super-slow and do those steps after each resize and before putting 'em back in to advance the system. If everything is close, it can work. An efficiency expert would say batch process them through decapping, clean pockets in a batch, trim them all, and then go back to the progressive for a straight run-through. After that, load them 5-6 times without all that ritual and you should find your ammo behaving just fine.

This applies to RCBS Green Machine, Dillon 550 and Square Deal, Star loaders, and the Lee Pro 1000. The auto case feeds on a few of these will prevent the cumbersome resize/case processing/resume stroke approach.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Hey Grump...You'll have to explain to me (not all that bright sometimes) how you keep from trimming your .357 magnum cases after the initial trimming. I load mostly .357 magnum (I have three to feed on a regular basis). I have to trim about every two firings to maintain equal length for crimping. I know that the length for the revolvers isn't all that important until they start interfering with the cylinder rotation and that is almost not going to happen. I trim to the shortest one about every two loadings. But I DO have to trim. If you have a secret that makes it posible to not have to trim except once, let's have it.

 

[caz223]

Let me just jump in here.
Cannelure seating and a lee factory crimp die would be my answer to that.
I have never trimmed ANY brass. Should I?
If you have enough brass, you don't have to load every case once a week, and the brass lasts a lot longer.

 

[WESHOOT2]

handgun only

Specific to 357:

clean (I use a vibratory cleaner, corn media, and Dillon Rapid Polish).

dump in case-feeder of Dillon XL650.

load (with room for oneamy Redding Profile Crimp dies).

Trimming cases? Once in their life, maybe; specific applications ONLY. All other cases get used as-is (still have some from the '70's, still getting used).
Cleaning primer pockets? No; same as above.
Inspection? Alla time.

Dump in cleaner, set timer, come back a few days later and sift. Dump in case-feeder and load. Inspect (based on use, either gauge or look-see). Box (final inspection).

Ammo for me; ammo for you? Different.........

Testing shows one what is truly required......and what is simply a waste of time :banghead:

 

[The Bushmaster]

Hummm...I must be just TOO persnickity. I must have all my brass within +/- .004 of each other. Where I must crimp, to me it is neccessary and where I don't crimp (Rifle) it still must be the same. It also adds to the overall inspections that I do. Even after five individual inspections from the range to a new seated bullet I still catch one out of spec and have to unload and throw it away . I will continue to be persnickity until someone can prove to me, beyond a doubt, that I am wrong to trim and maintain those specs.

 

[caz223]

Prove it to yourself.
Instead of culling or trimming your brass, separate it into two groups, 'good' and 'bad'.
Shoot under your normal conditions.
If there's a noticeable accuracy difference, then continue your routine.
Don't leave it up to others, challenge yourself to find a difference.
A measureable difference.

I used to do all sorts of extra stuff when I loaded single stage.
Then I loaded progressive, and skipped all that. Compared the ammo.
I found I was wasting my time. Man, was I pi$$ed, I had bags and bags of brass that was primed, bell mouthed, etc. All that work for nothing.


It prolly depends on your shooting style, if you're a slow, deliberate shooter, and you're shooting pistol ammo at rifle ranges, you'd notice a difference.
How about speed drills at 15 yards, I really doubt you'd notice it then...

 

[The Bushmaster]

Aah caz223...There you go...Wrecking all my fun. I just keep reading all of these manuals that we keep telling the beginners to read and they keep telling me to trim. Besides, as I have said, I like uniform brass, shinny and the best I can produce. By the way. What's the problem with seating primers that I have been hearing about. Primers are supposed to be just below the case head. This is easy to see and accomplish. I use the Lee Auto prime II (here we go again on the brand thing. I can see it now.) and have had absolutely no problem seating primers to their proper depth. You??

 

[caz223]

Never had a problem with primers.
Used to tumble my brass.
Then resize and de-prime.
Clean the pockets.
Tumble again.
Then clean out the media out of the flash holes.
Then hand prime using a RCBS tool.
Then bell mouth.
Then I kept the prepped brass in baggies of 1000 to load at a moments' notice.

Not counting all that work, I could load at 200+ rounds an hour using a powder measure, then seating and crimping in one operation. On a single stage. So, if I neeeded ammo, I could crank it out in an hour. (But remember, for every hour I spent adding powder, then seating and crimping, I'd spend 2 prepping, priming the brass, and bellmouthing.)

When I noticed it made no difference to me, I loaded brass just out of the tumbler, letting my 550 put the primers in.
Other than missing 1 primer out of 1000. (My 550 just looses one somewhere.), I have no primer problems.

It actually takes LONGER to run primed brass through my 550 because I have to skip the decapping step, because nomally I'd operate the handle with my right, index with my left, then feed case with right, feed bullet with left. Very efficient.

To load primed brass, I'd operate handle with right, load case with my right, then index with my left, and load bullet with my left.
My right hand has to wait while the left is doing 2 operations, then my left waits while the right side does 2 operations. That's not very efficient, thus taking longer.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Looks like the same procedure that I use except that I don't have to clean out the flash holes as my media is fine enough to slip through the flash hole like and hour-glass.

cas223...You have a fine day. Today was "beat up my horse" day...At least he thought so.

P. S. caz223...Went back and reread one of your posts...Not to sound too critical here, but doesn't Lee Factory Crimp die require pretty close trimming requirements. At least that's what I read for mine...

 

[caz223]

Mi' cuvuyo, Mi cuvuyo. (If you don't get it, don't ask me, ask someone who knows spanish.)

ABCs of reloading is a very important tool to learn to reload, and I'm certainly glad I learned on a lee loader, then single stage.
I'm just glad I got the 550 now.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Well Damn...Sorry, but I only know but one language and that's spoken only in America...I have traveled world wide and found that's all I need.

 

[caz223]

The LEE FC dies are different for rifle and for pistol.
On the rifle FC dies, yes, trim length needs to be consistant for consistant crimp.
Same with their new bottle necked pistol FC dies. 357SIG, for instance.
Granted, it's less important than rifle, but more important than straight-walled pistol rounds.

On their pistol FC dies, trim length is less critical, that's one of their advantages.

Google it, search for LEE factory crimp and trim length.
If you have a trim length problem with FC dies you'll basically have a seating depth problem with cannelured bullets, or if it's really THAT much longer or shorter than normal, you're going to have bigger problem than an inconsistant crimp.

 

[The Bushmaster]

caz223...Egads...I'm not having a problem reloading any of my rounds...They are. Not me. You have entertained me this Sunday though.

 

[caz223]

NP, just trying to prevent a little misinformation.....

Quote:
P. S. caz223...Went back and reread one of your posts...Not to sound too critical here, but doesn't Lee Factory Crimp die require pretty close trimming requirements. At least that's what I read for mine

Oh, and I'm not having any problems with my crimp, either.

 

[g56]

For pistol calibers:

1 After shooting, clean your brass
2 Reload
3 Shoot

Note 1: There is absolutely no need to clean primer pockets on pistol calibers, I'm a Master Class shooter and there is no detectable difference in accuracy.

Note 2: There is normally no need to trim pistol caliber brass.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Oh rats!!! Now, I suppose, that I will have to stop cleaning my primer pockets too. Besides trimming my cases. Drat!! And I was having soo much fun doing so...

 

[Rockstar]

California! That pretty much covers it!