"Proper" fit for a handgun

[AStone]

Howdy all,

It's been another informative day of reading on THR. Today, I've focused mainly on handguns, even though the shotgun forum has my interest as well.

I've read several threads over the last 24 hrs about autoloaders, focusing on Kahr, S&W, & Glock. Ever since I fondled a Kahr P9 at my local shop on Monday, I've started to crave one.

I asked to look at it with an intro like this: "i've had a smith & wesson 3914 for several years, but am having thoughts of either supplementing it or more likely replacing it (I only feel a need for one pistol right now) with something slightly smaller. I'd probably like to stay with 9 mm. What would your recommend that I look at?"

The fifth of five guns that came out of the case was the P9. The way it fit my hand, and the feeling that resulted was nearly instantaneous. About 0.223 sec after picking it up, i said outloud, "nice", and to myself nonverbally, "i want this gun".

I spent my web hours today doing searches on Kahr P9. There's at least one very interesting (to me at least) thread by that name already going.

But in this thread, I'd like to pose a broader question than brand.

In several handgun threads today, i've read words to this effect: "Get the one that fits, that feels good in your hand".

That resonates for me. The reason the P9 resonated immediately for me was the fact that it just plain 'felt' right. The fit didn't require analysis of lengths of fingers & distances to triggers. It was just intuitive.

But in handling my 3914 today, which now doesn't feel as intuitive as the P9, I've realized something. I don't really have a good understanding of exactly what a good fit is in a technical sense.

Yeah, I know what "feels right" feels like. But what do the top gun instructors say. How would they adivse a novice about how to buy a gun, what to look for that works for his/her sized hands.

For example, i have fairly small hands for a man. (Tall, thin.) When I bought my 3914, I was trading in a Taurus .38 snubby which fit me well. The 3914 was my first autoloader. At the time, due to inexperience, it felt pretty good. I liked the weight and balance better than the 38. I also was allured by its single action nature for most shots.

The 3914 has a roughened patch on the front of the trigger gaurd, ostensibly for resting my index finger when it's not on the trigger. (Finger off the trigger until you're ready to pull it.)

Yet, my hand is not large enough to use it. Instead, I find that my finger simply lays just above the trigger gaurd just underneath the eject port, or else hangs out inside the trigger gaurd but behind the trigger (which no doubt would make a handgun instructor raise an objection).

So, here's my question: aside from how it feels, how does one know when an autoloader handgun fits in some 'ideal, technical' sense (that hopefully is congruent with the more intuitive "feels good"?

Just as i've learned how to tell when a shotgun 'fits' me, when the stock is a proper length, by craddling it in my elbow joint and seeing where my trigger finger is relative to the trigger, there's probably some similar technical test for a HG.

Yes, I acknowledge that 'feeling' is just as important, but humor me here.

Thanks,

NemA~

 

[SnakeEater]

So, here's my question: aside from how it feels, how does one know when an autoloader handgun fits in some 'ideal, technical' sense (that hopefully is congruent with the more intuitive "feels good"?

By taking it to the range and shooting it, a lot.

 

[Jimbo1]

Something I use, probably not scientific, but take the weapon to the range. At about 10 yds, hold weapon the way it feels "right". Then WITHOUT aiming, pick a spot on the target and fire a few rounds. A weapon that "fits" will have a natural aim in the way your hands follow your eyes. And the rounds going down range will hit what you are looking at without lining the sights.

This works for me, probably better ways to "fit" a weapon.

 

[Berg01]

By taking it to the range and shooting it, a lot.

When people talk about "handfit" and "balance" being good or bad, a lot of times its good or bad compared to something else they have more experience with. I think common sense dictates that a lot of range practice with a given handgun will help to get "grooved" with it.

 

[JoeHatley]

With an unloaded gun pick a target, stand like you are getting ready to shoot, pick up the gun and hold it down to your side, close your eyes. With your eyes closed, bring the gun up and point it to the place you remember the target being. Open your eyes. If the sights are "on target" you've found a gun that "fits" you naturally.

This doesn't always translate to a gun you will shoot well, but it's a pretty good place to start.

Good Luck...

Joe

 

[AStone]

A slight clarification

Hey folks!

Thanks for the feedback so far. Good advice, and a nice couple of chuckles to boot.
I'll be headed to the range in a day or so with it. I'll try out your tips.

I'll also add one more clarification for anyone who'd like to add their 2c.

When I was writing my question last evening, I was thinking mostly in terms of the fit of my index finger on the trigger (even though, yes, i fully acknowledge that other dimensions may be just as, or even more, important).

Of course, it's a no brainer that if ones finger does not reach the trigger comfortably, then the gun is too large. (That's not the case for me here.)

But are there any guidlines about what's too small or too large? For example, I can imagine that Shaquille O'Neal may not do so well with a Glock 26, but would be better with a Glock 17.

What stimulated my question mainly was that well-defined rectangular patch of roughened ("sharp-beaded") metal on the front of the trigger guard (hey look, ma, i spelled guard right today). Since my finger doesn't reach it, it led me to ask, is this gun maybe a bit large for me? Maybe it's more optimum in a larger hand.

(Related observation: my 3914 is probably, say, five years old or more. When I look at images of more recently built 3913 (not finding 3914 even listed anymore), I notice that they now have extra letters after the number (e.g., 3913TSW) and appear to be significantly shorter than mine (plus a couple of other minor modifications in shape). Of course, it's hard to tell for sure without a side by side comparision, but I'm pretty sure it's been redesigned since I bought mine. I'm wondering if they shortened not only the total length but also the distance from back of grip to trigger. (My local shop doesn't have one, so I can't try it. For the record, on mine, the shortest distance from back of grip to front of trigger is 2 & 7/8" or 7 cm.)

OK, please keep the opinions coming in. I'm learning with enjoyment.

NemA~

 

[brickboy240]

Joe has you covered...its a "feel" thingy. Its different for everyone.

For me, the Browning Hi-Power, CZ-75, XD-40 and 1911s "fit and feel" best for me. I can't hit ???? with a Glock, Beretta or Smith autopistol.

-Brickboy240

 

[AStone]

The fit & the trigger reach

{Albanian from another thread} If you are thinking of getting a Kahr, I would jump on it. After I got my first Kahr, I was hooked. No other guns fits me like a K-9. The trigger takes some getting used to but it is worth the time because surprising accuracy can be achived in both slow fire and rapid if you do you part. It is never going to be as fast as a 1911 but it will be as fast as any revolver. Basically, if it fits your hand, you should love shooting it. The only problems I have heard with them is that they are too small or the trigger reach is too close for some shooters. If it fits your hand and you can master the trigger, I can't imagine you not loving it.

That post is the closest yet to really addressing my original question in a holistic way.
(Not that I haven't learned from other responses. I have. Thanks to all.)

The full answer I seek (being a science & mathematics type) combines what others have correctly asserted, that i intuited from handling (ok, ok, fondling) a Kahr, with an (at least approximate) quantitative range of dimensions relating finger size to trigger position. (Really folks, even in getting back to Earth from space, inches count.)

That is, it combines these two factors:

1) Fit is everything. Fit, fit, fit. If the gun don't fit, you must omit {it}.

2) It hints at a quantitative explanation of #1: "The only problems I have heard with them is that they are too small or the trigger reach is too close for some shooters."​

Yeah, now we're getting somewhere.

NemA~

<whistles> "K9. Come on in, boy. It's getting dark out."

 

[g1726]

This doesn't relate to the Kahr, but to your 3914. The checkered patch on the front of the trigger guard is not for your trigger finger, but for the index finger of your support hand. Try it like this and you'll see the purpose. The theory is that you gain leverage over the muzzle jump of the pistol. This is something that is generally seen on the triggerguards of European pistols, though many American models now have them as well.

This isn't accepted by all camps, but what I can offer for fit guidelines is that you should be able to reach the trigger comfortable without the rest of the inside of your index finger touching the frame. I find that keeping my index finger on the trigger face only and completely independent of the frame helps me have a more consistent pull on the trigger. This is most likely not a problem with your 3914, nor will it be on the P9.

 

[pauli]

if you notice that you're holding it, it doesn't fit right.

 

[DT Guy]

To test a handgun for fit, do the following:

*Bending your elbow, extend your forearm and hand upward.
*Open your hand into a 'V', with the thumb and the forefinger defining the primary outline of the shape.
*Orient the V so that it is centered above the straight line of your forearm.
*Place the handgun in the V so that the long axis of the gun (rear sight to front sight) is aligned with the straight line of your forearm.
*Attempt to wrap your first finger joint around the frontstrap of the gun, and the second finger joint around the far side of the frontstrap; the area your between the joints should be flat and perpendicular to the long axis of the gun.

If you cannot do this, the gun doesn't 'fit' correctly. You grip will then have to accomodate the firearm by wrapping around from the dominant side, rather than the rear, and your ability to control the gun in recoil, isolate the trigger finger and otherwise be proficient with the gun will be compromised.

To an experienced shooter, picking up a gun can instantly provide this information-to a novice, not versed in the correct grip for a firearm, this can be used to size guns before purchase.


Larry

 

[AStone]

bingo

The checkered patch on the front of the trigger guard is not for your trigger finger, but for the index finger of your support hand.

Got it. That sounds very reasonable.

Hypothesis: shooters who understand that & fire lots of rdns in a 3913/14 (and other pistols that employ that trick) have a callus on the inner surface of the first digit of their support hand index finger.

 

[AStone]

Front strap test

Oh, this makes sense ...

DT Guy wrote: To test a handgun for fit, do the following:

*Bending your elbow, extend your forearm and hand upward.
*Open your hand into a 'V', with the thumb and the forefinger defining the primary outline of the shape.
*Orient the V so that it is centered above the straight line of your forearm.
*Place the handgun in the V so that the long axis of the gun (rear sight to front sight) is aligned with the straight line of your forearm.
*Attempt to wrap your first finger joint around the frontstrap of the gun, and the second finger joint around the far side of the frontstrap; the area your between the joints should be flat and perpendicular to the long axis of the gun.

FRONT STRAP - That part of the revolver or pistol grip frame that faces forward and often joins with the trigger guard. In target guns, notably the .45 ACP, the front strap is often stippled to give shooter's hand a slip proof surface.
http://www.gunshop.com/bbp6.htm

Pardon two simple questions, please, but just to be clear:
1) Is the front strap the front of the trigger guard or the front edge of the grip inside the trigger guard, behind the trigger?
2) Is the first finger that wraps around the front strap that of the trigger finger or of the support hand. I'm guessing the answers are: 1) front of trigger guard; 2) support hand, since the support hand is the one that reaches the "stippled" surface on the front of the 3914's trigger guard.

If so, then: 1) that is an elegantly simple test; and 2) my 3914 fits me well.

NemA~

 

[pax]

So, here's my question: aside from how it feels, how does one know when an autoloader handgun fits in some 'ideal, technical' sense (that hopefully is congruent with the more intuitive "feels good"?

Here's what I have heard from instructors at FAS, Marty & Gila Hayes.

With an unloaded gun, and with the gun pointed in a safe direction, place the crease of the distal joint of your trigger finger on right edge of the trigger, so that the pad of your finger is resting on the face of the trigger and the tip of your finger protrudes out the other side of the trigger.

Then, without removing your finger or pulling the trigger to the rear, wrap the rest of your hand around the gun. When you do this, the backstrap of the gun should be centered comfortably in the web of your hand (the area between your thumb and forefinger).

The gun is too big for you if, in order to keep the distal joint on the right face of the trigger, you have to move the back of your hand so that the gun will recoil into the joint of your thumb.

The gun is small for you if very much more of your finger than just the distal joint will easily go through the trigger guard area while the gun is still centered in the web.

HTH.

pax

 

[AStone]

a "flat distal joint test"

Pax relates a test taught by instructors at FAS: The gun is too big for you if, in order to keep the distal joint on the right face of the trigger, you have to move the back of your hand so that the gun will recoil into the joint of your thumb.

This test makes even more sense (to me) because it explicitly relates to the trigger finger.

By this test, my 3914 is ~ 1/4"+ too large for my hand - because I have to rotate the back of my hand for a comfortable grip on the pistol grip - which is what i have intuited from handling the Kahrs.

Hmmm.

 

[AStone]

Fas

A bit off topic, but since I started the thread, I'll risk the disapproval.

Pax, after reading your post, I explored the FAS web site & it has my attention. I've been looking for a Pacific NW based academy for basic instruction in handguns & shotguns.

Even though I've lived my life with handguns, rifles & shotguns, I've never benefitted from a real class. (Sad, since I'm a professional educator.)

Now that I'm getting back into both handguns & shotguns as HD/SD weapons for the first time in years, I'm interested in taking some classes.

I'm not yet permitted for CCW, but would like to be. (Have already emailed the instructor recommended by FAS for a CCW qualifying class for my state.)

Here's my question. Feel free to PM about this if you'd prefer.

Have you taken classes at FAS? Did you find them to be good classes?

Their web site is informative. Their prices are right, with a nice schedule, and they're offered not too far from my home.

Thanks.

NemA~

 

[pax]

Nematocyst ~

PM sent.

pax

 

[GunGoBoom]

For me, the Browning Hi-Power, CZ-75, XD-40 and 1911s "fit and feel" best for me. I can't hit ???? with a Glock, Beretta or Smith autopistol.

+1. If the Kahr feels good, do it!

 

[AStone]

If it feels good, do it

If the Kahr feels good, do it!

And so I did. Thanks for the encouragement.

Thanks also for all the tips on fit. The one that really did it for me was Pax's digit test (see above). On the SW 3914, my trigger finger would not lay flat on the trigger as my hand is not quite long enough. Even the guy in the gun shop said, "yeah, it'll work, but it's a stretch."

I had tried the Kahr P9 a couple of days ago, and loved the feel. Today, at Albanian's advice in another thread , I tried the K9. Loved it even more!

And, the darned thing stuck to my hand like it had superglue on it. All I could do was trade in the 3914, pay the difference and take it home.

I feel like a daddy with a new baby. I've attached a couple of photos of the new kid.

Thanks to those in several threads with help on this decision.

Next, break this baby in at the range with a couple of hundred FMJ's...

Gratitude,

NemA~

 

[Justin]

When evaluating a new handgun this is what I do:

Take a comfortable two handed grip on the pistol.
Get into a shooting stance.
Pick a point on the wall that isn't occupied by anyone.
Bring the pistol into a low ready position.
With eyes closed, bring the pistol up as if you were aiming at a target.
Open your eyes and see if the sights are anywhere close to being properly aligned.

Repeat a couple of times. If the sights continue to be properly aligned, or close then the pistol is a good fit.

 

[AStone]

A point on a wall not occupied by anyone

Justin,

Thanks for your suggestion. I get it.

I logged back onto the forum to leave a ... responsible? mature? clarification of my last post, in which i {while feeling slightly giddy from the presence of a new handgun} referred to a new k9 as "baby" & referred to myself as "father".

ok, that experience reminded me of the kid thrill of my first 'real' gun: a Remington Nylon 0.22 (circa '63). even then, although fascinated with it, i was also, fortunately, aware - both rationally & intuitively - how much damage small projectiles can do while traveling at such high velocities, especially to living tissue (sez the biologist).

oh, you know what it's like. you get a new one home, & - to some potentially dangerous extent - the feeling as you're unpacking it for the first time, wiping it down with the silicon rag, racking it, trying out new holds ... all that is sorta like trying out a new {inappropriate word} "toy".

oh, come on, now, admit it: handling a new gun is at least related to the feeling you got as a kid when opening some hot new cutting edge toy. for some elders, it was a wooden Colt .45. For others, a plastic GI Joe. For younger folks, a Sega system with Angelina Jolie kicking serious alien ass.

still, being an older (than kid), wiser person, you remember that guns are not toys, but serious weapons that can maim and kill. 115 gr. metal objects moving at over 1000 fps can wreak havoc in tissues & organs.

like newton said, f = ma.

so, as i'm fondling this new k9 (unloaded, of course; triple checked, with finger off the trigger), getting accustomed to its feel; racking the slide; locking the slide open, then quickly close it (don't inhibit slide closing, says the manual, which MUST be read first); pointing at a place on the wall behind which no one is standing, recognizing that it's all about lining up dots...all this time, i'm looking at this piece of metal and a bit of plastic in my hand.

The machining of the body, from body to beveled edges. The solid feel of the slide mechanism with a lack of slack. The smooth pull of the trigger. The Hogue synthetic grips that are beyond ergonomic. Laser inscribed letters. (Did i mention, i inadvertently bought an Elite 98. Didn't seek that one specifically; i really sought the matte stainless - but as luck would have it, it just happened to be the only one there, and - presumably because of market driven forces - was less expensive than ordering a new matte stainless. {explanation offered: prices are going up due to fuel prices. uh huh. so, what're ya gonna do? take the one that's there).

Then, with the help of a well-written manual - which should be read thorughly before even unpacking the gun {trust me on that one} - i found the labelled diagram of parts. Under good light, i started examining the inside of this weapon with slide locked back. wow. did i mention the phrase "engineering marvel"?

Then, in the midst of that, once again, the reality of responsibility sinks in.

This is a weapon. As fine as one may feel while handling, exploring or even <ahem> fondling this engineering marvel, one must always, always remember: this thing can kill in irresponsible hands. It only takes one fleeting moment of inattention, one stupid mistake.

Be responsible with it. Keep fingers (and other objects) off the trigger until you are ready to fire it. If 1) there is a round chambered, and 2) you pull the trigger, then, 3) the gun will fire as there is no safety on a k9. (etc, etc, etc.)


________

And, in the context of a desire to affirm that realization after a nearly 'kidlike post', i logged back on to find a cool, informative post with a great recommendation about how to evaluate a new handgun:

Take a comfortable two handed grip on the pistol.
Get into a shooting stance.
Pick a point on the wall that isn't occupied by anyone.
Bring the pistol into a low ready position.
With eyes closed, bring the pistol up as if you were aiming at a target.
Open your eyes and see if the sights are ... aligned.

i'm going to go try them out now. Unloaded. {triple checked}

Evaluation time.

Hypothesis: align the sights by connecting the dots in ghost ring fashion.

NemA~

 

[SnakeEater]

racking the slide; locking the slide open, then quickly close it (don't inhibit slide closing, says the manual, which MUST be read first);

I believe it is refering to when you actually chamber a round, that is the time to not inhibit the slide closing. Doing so with an unloaded gun will cause no harm and might actually save a little wear an' tear on her.

 

[Justin]

Thanks for your suggestion. I get it.

Sorry. No disrespect intended. I've just seen a lot of people pick up a gun in a gunshop, and dry fire it with no thought as to where the muzzle is pointed.

 

[AStone]

No apology needed!

Sorry. No disrespect intended. I've just seen a lot of people pick up a gun in a gunshop, and dry fire it with no thought as to where the muzzle is pointed.

Hey Justin,

No apology needed on my end!

I think you may have misinterpretted what i was communicating; i'll take responsibility for not being more clear. I'm, in part, a professional writer (essays, stories, etc), so my posts can be fairly, um "wordy" (at times more story-like than information-based) and in those cases, the main point doesn't always come through.

I saw NO disrespect in your post at all. In fact, quite the opposite. I enjoyed reading it - the timing of your suggestion was perfect for my new gun - it was like, "this is logically the next thing to do" - and i much appreciated your suggestion: concise, clear, relevant & interesting.

That's actually what I was trying to communicate - but admittedly, i didn't say that up front without ambiguity; i was feeling storyesque last night, and probably used too many words to make the point. Sorry 'bout that.

I really did use the idea last night immediately after reading it - which led me to say "I get it" - and will continue to. It's a very simple, quick exercise to check and practice ones aiming process. It can be repeated over and over to find that intuitive, felt-sense 'zen' of pointing that seems so important in defending one's life against an attacker.

(I'm mainly a biology teacher. In western anatomy & physiology, we'd describe that "zen of pointing" in terms of training our body position with proprioceptors, little specialized nerve endings embedded in muscle and connective tissues (tendons, ligaments) that send your brain information about the position of your limbs and joints. That's how you know the position of your arms, say, even with your eyes closed.)

Again, thanks for posting it, Justin.

And thanks again to all who have posted. I've learned from each one.

SnakeEater: yes, you're right. A clear read of the directions finds this under Loading & Firing: "Pull the slide fully to the rear and allow it to spring forward into the locked position. Do not impede the forward travel of the slide or attempt to ease the slide forward." It says nothing about operation when it's unloaded, but I suspect that especially after the break in (it is one stiff little puppy right now) there would be no problem with easing the slide travel in an unloaded gun. Point taken. I'm open, of course, to opinions from others about that.
______

Forums like this - and THR in particular - are like little on line schools where everyone is both student AND teacher. They are fantastic places to share ideas, tricks, suggestions.

In case I haven't said this at least once today already, I'm a relative newby here (only 25 or so posts), but already favorably impressed with the quality of thinking & communication skills, and - perhaps most importantly - with the civility & respect with which folks communicate with each other (in 99.99% of what i've read so far) especially given the diversity in backgrounds, life views, etc.

Respect,

NemA~

 

[GlenJ]

I'm wanting to get a GLOCK so what I did was tried out the 17, 19 and 26. the 17 fit my hand great the 19 didn't and the 26 did with a Pierce extension. I mainly want something enjoyable for range shooting and occasional carry since the 26 fits the bill that's what I'm getting. So bascially just go where you rent some guns and try out a bunch before you lay your money down.