proposed federal high cap. mag ban

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You know, you could make the argument that if he had had a full-auto pistol, he would have expended all of his ammo on one or two targets, thereby saving the lives of 4 or 5 people...!

These arguments, of course, obscure the real issue, which is NOT the tool, but the individual.
 
"what is the purpose of a 30 round handgun mag?"

Most people are thinking of laws and government when they ask a question like that. What they are wondering is why it should not be illegal to own the mag, which is the same as asking "why should I not be allowed to use force to keep you from doing (X)." After all, the essence of government and laws is force.

When talking about the use of force/laws/government, I ask a different question: why SHOULD you be allowed to use force to restrain somebody from possessing/doing/saying something? I believe that force is only justified as a response to a threat to liberty. By "liberty," I mean unobstructed action according to one's will within the limits drawn by the equal right of others to do the same. The only legitimate purpose for laws or government or force is to protect liberty.

So when someone proposes to ban the mere possession of something, the question that should be asked is "how does the mere possession of this item constitute a threat to the liberty of others?"

It is difficult to come up with an explanation how the mere possession of ANYTHING can be considered a threat to anyone. I suppose the mere individual possession of something that has the capacity for extremely widespread destruction, such as a nuclear bomb, without any additional safeguards, could be considered a threat to one's life, liberty, or property by a rational person because of the possible magnitude of the damage of such a weapon.

Of course, if you accept this premise, this leads you into very subjective line-drawing territory... in the spectrum of dangerous weapons, where do you draw the line? When is something so powerful and destructive that it's mere possession can be considered a threat to the liberty of others?

When it comes to the protection of liberty, there is another issue: the fact that prohibiting the possession of weapons limits the ability of individuals to protect their own liberty against those who might violate it. Experience shows that the most serious violations of liberty usually come from the same people who claim the role of protecting everyone, along with the power to make laws and coerce people into following them.

So if the object is to provide for the maximum possible amount of liberty that can be equally shared, maybe one has to ask whether the mass destructiveness of a weapon outweighs it's usefulness in defending liberty and all other legitimate uses so greatly that it's mere unrestricted possession poses a threat to the liberty of others.

So maybe it is proper to ask what the possible defensive use of a weapon is. For any small arms, including the 30 round mag, it is an easy answer: the defensive use is to fight those who are attempting to deny liberty to you. Currently, small arms are the primary method humans use to kill each other, and are necessary to oppose an attempted use of force. This applies when the threatening party is a single individual or a small group (like criminals), but it's rationale is especially strong when the "threatenors" are organized and come in large numbers (like a government).

Recent conflicts have shown that small explosives are also highly effective for individuals resisting organized force, and I believe it is a violation of the liberty of individuals to keep them from owning such explosives.

Where the question becomes difficult for me is when it comes to weapons like anti-aircraft missiles and extremely large conventional explosives (like the one that destroyed the Murrah building). These weapons have some very powerful defensive uses... for situations in which one's oppressors are employing aircraft, or are grouped together in large numbers inside a structure for instance... but they also give the single individual who is intent on violating the right to live of his fellow man the ability to do so on a fairly large scale.

What do you think? Would a rational man perceive another person who possesses a nuke, or a Stinger missile, or a 2000 lb. laser guided bomb, or an RPG, or a Claymore mine, or a Glock with a 33 round mag, to be a threat to his liberty?

Personally, I do not believe that it is rational to see the mere possession of any kind of small arm to be a threat to anyone's liberty. I think this would be a good starting point... we should eliminate all restrictions on the ability of individuals to own small arms, and then we can worry about the other stuff.
 
Well Prince,where and when do you call a person a danger to society??
A 17 year old guy that gets into a fight?
Someone who daydreams constantly?
A person who constantly puts slime green tattoes over his body along with enough piercings to look like a friggin pin cushion??

A teenager who gets into a fisticuffs is generally not a threat.

All the others mentioned on not crazy, just eccentric.

Someone who a interrupts math class to ask about the meaning behind numbers or feels that bad grammar is a government conspiracy= crazy.
 
So far i have been unable to independently substantiate the gun control zone around safeway in research, inspite of report I heard. I retract the comment as heresay unless somebody can confirm it...
 
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My opinion on this whole matter is pretty basic.

Law makers are not stupid or blind to basic facts. Everyone knows that if you take something from the "people" you are taking it from those who will obey the law and GIVE it. Everyone knows that criminals do not obey the laws whether they are brand new fresh off the press or if they go back as far as moses with the 10 commandments.

Any step forward in gun control is just that, control. Any excuse anti gunners can use to make that step I.E shootings, natural disasters, threats of security, they are going to blame the gun, characterize it as bad and try to take it away. Taking Hi cap mags is just a nudge closer to what they really want, whether we have practical uses for them or not.

No body with the intelligence to advance themselves in politics and debate really thinks that guns kill people by themselves.

It is all about control and how to get it.
 
none of these knee-jerk lawsuits will go anywhere. One visit to the committee and that'll be the last we hear of them. IF they even make it to a single hearing.
 
Panzercat said:
So far i have been unable to independently substantiate the gun control zone around safeway in research, inspite of report I heard. I retract the comments as heresay unless somebody can confirm it...

Yeah I looked for something for quite a while earlier this week and I cannot find any reference to any Arizona law that would have made carrying at this gathering illegal.

I read one report as well that it was illegal but it was from a media source I do not trust at all.
 
Yeah I looked for something for quite a while earlier this week and I cannot find any reference to any Arizona law that would have made carrying at this gathering illegal.

According to Fox news (take it how ya want it) the laws being proposed are not to be discussed until after this week, this week is suppose to be for mourning

I can't remember who said it because im not up on anchor names but that is what was said.
 
In this case if he had a ten 10rd mag he may have been stopped sooner. I understand he was reloading when they got to him.

Personally I don't feel I need a 30 rd mag. As far as a ban goes, if there is no law to surrender mags above 10 rd's, it would be ridiculous because people will once again go to preban mags.
There doesn't need to be a "reason" to have them. And anyway it was my understanding that he was stopped when someone pulled the magazine from his gun, which wouldn't have been able to happen if it had been a 10-rounder flush with the frame.
 
Don't forget, a lot of us own kel-tec sub2000' in glock configuration, and use these 31/33 round magazines in these carbines. So, a 31/33 round glock magazine is not by default being used in a handgun, at all.
 
I'll rig up my coat to hold six handguns, Boondock Saints style. Then they can ban longcoats because they can hide weapons. Kinda like how some government prisons...er schools, force kids to have transparent backpacks, for their own safety, of course.

boondock_1.jpg
 
For what it's worth I like how the NRA is dealing with all the hub-bub. Remaining calm and staying out of the catfights. The organization is a pretty savy political dog and knows it's way around Capitol Hill.Trust me the phones are being worked and meetings are happening, but it's quiet. Lets all pray for the victims and have a moment of calm. Next week we climb into the ring. Does anybody here remember 1999 after Colombine? This is all very similar. The Clintons had a press conference and presented a laundry list of gun control measures that they wanted. Those measures passed through the Senate, but not the Congress. There was just as much screaming and yelling and name calling then as there is now. Then I was stressed out and angry. I was a total wreck by the fall and basically unbearable. I'm working on keeping control of myself now. I'd like to think I've learned a little bit more after twelve years.

The NRA and the GOA ran a very skillfull campaign and the NRA saw it's membership increase by one million in just a few months.

Lets take a breath and get ready. Panic mode might be fun, but does it really accomplish anything? The opposition is always out there with some type of lunatic bill ready to go, ready to exploit a tragedy for political points. Lautenberg and Feinstein are old enemies of the American gunowner. They're very capable (I hate saying that about them) and one of the things they like doing is pushing our buttons. They want us out of control.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be taken seriously, but they aren't fifteen feet tall. We've lost some ,very true, but we've also won over the years. We're pretty formidable as well. Try to remember that.
 
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Gun laws do nothing but make people acquiese to government control, and whittle away gun rights slowly, which erodes the second amendment over a period of a few generations.

Look at what we've learned in the history of the world.

First thing is that gun control is a red herring and civilians are never safer - instead they are at more risk of widespread oppression from government and crime from criminals.

Secondly, direct gun confiscation generally results in the masses fighting back. However, slowly enacted common sense laws "for our own good" are hard to resist but they take away gun rights one at a time. People don't tend to band together and care if 'someone else's rights' are taken away. And by the time it gets to their right, they are powerless to do anything because now they are in the minority.

33 round magazines may not be your thing - but we've learned that the gun control movement will NEVER rest until ALL guns are banned. I guarantee that even if 33 rounders are banned, some shootings will occur and people will die and then that weapon system or bullet type will be demonized; maybe it's a shotgun, maybe a long range hunting rifle, who knows... but we as gun owners must hold a solid unified line against gun grabbers!
 
The canard:
If it saves one life isn't it worth it?
get trotted out at these times.

I finally heard (in an unrelated conversation) a fascinating rebuttal.
To wit:
"Anyone ask the few hundred widows and orphans if it was 'worth it' that a thousand died that they be saved?"
 
So I would not be able to sell my M&P 40 FS if I wanted to because is comes with 15 rd magazines. That bill is sickening, the wording is offensive, and it just shows how little this government cares or knows the people they supposedly govern.
 
The people who so blindly support this measure frighten me. The knee-jerk reactions by politicians to further their own personal agendas is also exceedingly disappointing, yet expected (sad, isn't it?). It seems that people forget that man is born free, and the sole purpose of laws is to limit that freedom.

I wonder if people who support this (even those on these forums), have really thought about the issue in perspective.

Do you know that alcohol is attributed to about 18,000 deaths from automobile accidents a year? Do you know it accounts for over half of all teenage deaths in car accidents? How many lives are ruined because of it, yet people preach for the banning of this or that, whatever so happens to be brought into the limelight by the media.

Think long and hard people, because if we stand for this, it won't be long until they take control from something that you're passionate about, or affects you on a more personal level, but by then it'll be too late.
 
Standard cap mags are already banned around here... hasn't stopped the killing as far as I can see. Anyway, these weasels can propose whatever kind of bill they want, it doesn't necessarily mean it will pass.

Checkman post 266 is full of wise words. Well said my friend.
 
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I don't really see a practical point of those magazines in a handgun because how they would be looked down upon by a anti gun jury even if the shooting is a legitimate shooting.

But hey they look like fun at the range!
 
... the availability of large capacity ammunition feeding devices. This includes magazines that can hold dozens of rounds of ammunition. The only purpose for the existence of these devices is to be able to shoot as many people as possible as quickly as possible. (emphasis added)

The above quote was taken from Carolyn McCarthy's letter to Congress, which can be found here:

http://carolynmccarthy.house.gov/uploads/mccarthy-magazine_bill.pdf

I find McCarthy's assertion that a 10-round magazine can be used for legitimate sporting purposes but that an 11-round magazine can only be used "to shoot as many people as possible as quickly as possible" completely preposterous. If you need further convincing that Congresswoman Carolyn McCarthy is clueless and ignorant, watch the following video of her trying to ban something she can't even define:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rGpykAX1fo
 
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