Pseudo Scout

[Risasi]

!@#$it, this forum is pissing me off!!!

This is it. I've got to quit coming here.

WildsohairbrainedheneedstoquitpostingandjustgetajobatFedExsohecanTomHankshimselfonadesertislandandleaveusalone Alaska got me thinking again. (Thanks a lot)

He posted this:

I submit the Enfield is the ultimate SHTF rifle...


Then later that day I found this:


Would like to build a .308 scout for under $500


Which after feeling like a fool for giving away a Jungle Carbine to a friend, searching high and low for another. Too embarassed to ask for my old one back (after they have gone up like $150 in value). And considering finding an old Mosin, wondering what my BAR would look like chopped, then just barely refraining from chopping 8" and special porting off of my Sako in 30-378. I am now sitting here having exhausted my body of all blood sugar, and impluse bought this:

We Don't Need No Stinking Manual..

I have been thinking about building a Scout Rifle. I can't stop thinking about it. I also keep weighing whether or not to build a true scout as Jeff Cooper defines. (Bolt, 308, 1 meter, 2.5xscope) Or Coop be damned and build it like I want. Or both versions.

I guess I am posting this because I want takes from people who have seen the book I posted above, have owned/shot/or handled a scout, or bastardized version of one. And any who have tried to put one together. Is it worth turning this into a winter project?

My thoughts are this right now; I'm not thinking about price. Obviously it matters in the end, but I'm after what has been done, and what is possible.

Not opposed to semi-auto. I thought about trying it on my BAR in 7mm Rem Mag.

Which leads to why I won't bubba my BAR; 3 rounds. I want at least five, ten is better. Fixed magwell is fine. Stripper capable YES, detach mag, even better.

Accuracy, 1MOA. And not a lot of work to get there, (bye, bye Ruger Mini). Better than MOA, great.

Weight, 7lbs or under. Fiber stock is the obvious answer.

Caliber, nothing lighter than .303, and the more common the round the better.

Scope, slid forward obviously for eyes relief. Need you ask? That's the predominate feature of a scout. (I also thought it would be cool to have a peep site built into the top of the scope like some Trijicon ACOG's)

I'm looking for suggestions from people on weapons that would meet the criteria above.

The obvious short list:

Enfield (especially an Ishapore, Jungle Carbine)
M44
M1/M14 (I can hear it now from the M1 crowd "Just get one of the new M1 Scouts"...thanks guys.)
Savage
CZ550



---------------------

I know it's a big list. But, the deal is I like big boom, loud guns. That leave big holes. That's why I bought the Sako. I can throw a 150gr slug down range at 3500fps. And I've got a special porting added on the barrel, along with something like 2" of padding on the back. I can shoot it all day the recoil is that light. I can get 3" groups at 600yds. This sucker leaves big holes. Not just down range though. In my pocketbook too. It's something like $4 a round, even $2.50 if I reload. It gets expensive quick. I rarely shoot past 200-300 yards, and the stinking thing is 50 inches long, and weighs something like 11 pounds. It's a beaut, but mostly just sits in the safe, if she escapes for the day it's just to the target range. It's just not "fun" anymore.

I want something I can take out again, carry all day without losing feeling in my hand/shoulder. Snap shoot with at close range, yet plop my slugs into a 4" group at 300 yards. Throw around and not being afraid of scratching up, 'cause it's a "safe queen". And ammo that is inexpensive enough, I also don't have to sell a couple units of blood just to shoot for an afternoon.

Any suggestions/experience?
(I already know what you will say Wild)

 

[litman252]

I have the book, it is ok for ideas not much of a how-to-do-it-step-by-step guide.
I bought a 308, converted mauser for my project. Have not even had the headspace checkes so that's how far I've gone. Keep us updated, a search will turn up a lot of info.
Jaegar (sp) has a really nice one posted
Scouts by Robbie ( I think thats right ) has some good stuff as well.
Tony

 

[Risasi]

Yeah, saw scoutman308.com

He does nice work. He only guarantees 2MOA I think. Which is still within Cooper specs. If I was only shooting for 2 MOA I think I would just wait and get one of those new springfield scouts. Or put together a cheap bolt action. If I go bolt action I want this puppy shooting the eyes out of Washington on the quarter at 100yds. That's why I'm not dead set on just putting together a cheap scout out of a Mosin or Enfield. Though if I do that I'm leaning toward the Enfield, in 308. Wild makes pretty good arguments for the SMLE over other bolts.

But I got time to decide, and I want to hear from as many people as I can. Especially from those who have put something together I haven't already seen on the Net. As for Enfields and Mosins you guys who have scouterized one you better be feeding me range reports. Specifically accuracy.

Thanks,

Bryan out

 

[billofthenorth]

Get a Yugo M48

You can find beater M48s for under $100 that will shoot well, replace or "sporterize" the stock (apologies to the purists) and put a scout mount and scope on it. Then you'll have a handy 8mm that will reach right out there, make a big noise at the range, looks cool and is a total chick magnet.

 

[Risasi]

Okay, you might have sold me on the chick magnet part...

Checking after market parts, and local suppliers...

 

[Risasi]

Update: Give me a Tim Allen grunt/Howard Dean Yearrgh!!

For posterity:

Okay, I have been working this project off and on for (looking at last post date)... um, 49 days, 23 hours...give or take.

To bring this thread up to speed about a month ago I stopped at the local moneypit and impulse bought an M1A, with bushnell 6x and mount. I him-hawed with one of the locals and of course since I buy so many idols there they talked me into $1100 on the M1A AND threw a Mosin M44 in for free. (You hafta understand though, I went in for just the Mosin, honest)

Anyway. As it stands now:

Bought Bob Cashner's book on cheap scout rifles. Read, then re-read. Very interesting book. Saw that his least favorite project was the Mosin, nonplussed I continued my adventure. Cashner had serious problems getting the bayo mount off. But he did it by popping all the pins and then reattaching the front mount. Me I said "Screw that".

**Warning, C&R guys stop reading now**

I took a hacksaw and lopped the barrel right behind the bayo mount. This brought the barrel length down to either 16.25" or 18.375", filed roughly even. I then used the old roundhead brass bolt/rubbing compound recrowning trick. Then I dropped the wood stock and put on an ATI fiber stock.

**C&R guys continue reading**

I was trying to install the SSK scout mount, turns out I was trying to install the M91 SSK scout mount. (CURSES!!) I ordered both of these parts from Gun Accessories, but they sent me the wrong part. Well just so you know you need SSK part# 4465, NOT #9165. The find receipt/send back/get new correct part step has to be accomplished yet. But I do have some thoughts with what I have done so far.

1. I did shoot this rifle right after purchasing it. Big kick (but very manageable), BIG fireball (big grin). It was grouping somewhere around 8" high and about 4" left from what I could tell at 85 yards. (Bayo retracted) I could not tell how well it was grouping, just wanted to make sure the action was okay. Sucky sights though.

2. This is a heavy dog, over 9lbs stock. Changed stock, dropped it to 8 1/4lbs, chopped the barrel now it's at about 7 7/8 lbs. (BTW they didn't Monte Carlo this ATI stock enough, the bolt hits my thumb)

3. Barrell length between 16.25" (bolt face) or 18.5" (breech opening) (BTW where do I measure from) I did this hoping to strenthen the barrel, and change the harmonics for better accuracy, plus drop some front weight, PLUS streamline it for brush use.

4. Overall length is 36 3/4"

5. After all this it now balances roughly 3'' back from the bolt face, or about 5" forward from the trigger. Very handy.

So I'm waiting for the SSK mount again. I have a Nikon 2.5-8x28 EER scope I picked up today. And I am thinking about finding a very light wood stock and/or chopping the ATI stock down in the back. To reduce weight even further, and perhaps balance out the weapon even more.

I'm trying to get Gunaccessories to get me that mount by Friday, if so I'll have a range report after this weekend (any Gunaccessories.com guys here? This is me shamelessly groveling for you to call me tomorrow )

Eventually I'll have pics of what kind of group it shoots, how bad it kicks, and overall look.

P.S. No collectable M44's were hurt in the making of this thread. This was a badly beaten up M44 with a decent bore, and fairly tight action, but has some pitting beneath the stock.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Glad to hear that you are also experiencing the fun and aggravation of building a psuedo-scout, especially off of the mosin platform. I did the same thing on an M38 and its become my handiest and favorite rifle. I couldnt find any aftermarket stocks that 'did it' for me, so I stuck with the wood. I also chopped the barrel and recrowned it, and thanks to that it gives fantastic accuracy. I also couldnt find a mount that didnt feel like the line of sight was resting 2" higher than it should be, so I took off the entire rear sight base, drilled and tapped, and added a mini-14 scope base. Now the scope is as low as it gets. Finally, the only other part I couldnt take about the mosin was that tee-tiny straight bolt. So I chopped the old one and put on a nice, long (normal length) bent bolt that makes it cycle like a dream. So after all that and a comfy little foam cheek pad, viola! Handy-dandy, sweet shootin, bubba'd up psuedo-scout.

Overall it makes a really fun project, and the results are usually worth it.

Note: The mosin used was non matching and in horrible shape. The bolt stuck, the crown was shot, wood was in poor shape, exterior pitting existed. I keep my minty mosin in precisely its original condition.

-Spooky

PS - If I had the cash, I'd still prefer a scoutman.com enfield by far. I think they would also come closer to that 1 MOA you want than the mosin. Plus, you'd have some decent back up irons to work with when the scope fails.

 

[Risasi]

Hey Spooky,

It doesn't sound like you shoot it much on paper.

But generally what kind of groups were you seeing? The reason I cut the barrel was because I was hoping to get the gun down to less than 2" MOA. Even if that meant sacrificing some speed.

Also are you shooting off the shelf ammo, or do you load your own? Being this is a bolt action, and powerful, I plan to reload. Maybe load a little softer. It's only meant for 200-300 yards anyway.


Edit: Also this is call to any others who might know if there exists an aftermarket wood stock for this old warhorse.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Hi Risasi,

You're right, I'm not much for paper punching. But I will have to learn to love it seeing as how I just became a member to a local range. I did most of the work on my 38 a couple of summers ago. I do handload too, and can't remember what the loads were. I went ahead and shot for a group when I was zeroing my scope and I believe I was getting 1.5"-2" . Experiences have made me a big believer that a good recrown job makes all the difference. Best of luck playing with the loads too, I think mine liked lighter bullets the most. Anymore it pretty much gets a regular diet of czech surplus!


Take care-

Spooky

 

[Sistema1927]

I picked up an Ishapore 2A1 with really nasty wood for $80. (Big chunks of wood were missing, and what remained was rotting out.)

Stripped off the wood, cut the barrel down to 19" and recrowned.

Put on an ATI synthetic stock, added a B-Square Scout scope mount and LER scope.

Since the original mag had a weak spring which would keep the last three rounds from picking up consistently I picked up 2 aftermarket 10 round mags.

Right at $300 invested, and it will keep Portugese or Aussie surplus in 2" at 100 yards offhand if I do my part. I have not tried any commerical .308 yet, but hope to check the headspace with .308 gauges. Even if I never fire .308 through it, it is tons of fun with 7.62 NATO surplus. It may be a tad heavier than the Colonels specs, and doesn't have back-up iron sights, but it works for me.

One additional note. The metal on this rifle is painted, and I found that the auto touch up paint from Wal-Mart for Chevrolet black makes a good match.

 

[Risasi]

Okay, this sucks. I hope I'm not making a mistake here.

Gun Accessories is out of S&K M44 scout mounts. I found the M44 B-square mount on makarov.com. I have it coming overnight. (shipping increased the cost to $67, nearly double) Boy, I sure hope I haven't made a mistake.

Anybody have any experiences with the B-square mounts? I found bad reports online, but it was a Glock forum. Why would a listen to tupperware guys?

Oh, BTW thanks for the input so far.

 

[Sparky]

For the aggravation I think I'd find a Savage Scout used. You'd probably stay within your budget and avoid the masochistic fun of dealing with incorrect parts, hacksaws etc.
But then fun without frustration isn't REALLY fun is it?LOL

 

[Northwest Cajun]

I've heard mixes reviews from the B-square. Most had to be fit to the particular gun. (not that it's a bad thing)

I'm building as true a scout as possible but I'm going the more expensive route with a commercial action, Haven't nailed one down yet. Either a Rem model 7 youth or a Howa ultra light/youth, either will be about the same $$. I'll use the XS scout mounts, good and solid. They run about $50. The stock will be a B&C Carbilite camo. I'm heading to a gunshow this weekend to see if there are any suitable new/used actions out there. My delima is do I get a youth rifle and develope my loads while I piece together the rest of the parts or, do I get a barreled action and then a stock, sights, mount, ect ect.
Caliber will be 7mm-08
Cajun

 

[artech]

I am in the process of building a mauser scout rifle. Took a pre bubba'd junker from the local gunshop, think it was about $125. Stovepiped, I mean barreled, in 7.65 Argentine. New 19" 7x57 barrel from Sarco, about $50 shipped. Got a scout mount from XS Sights which was the wrong size(tried to return it, they wouldn't even return my e-mails), spent two days fitting the damn thing, about $80 and a lot of swearing.

Found a sporter M-98 stock in the junk bin of local gunsmith, dented and scratched, $20. Picked up Timney trigger from Midway on sale, about $40. Had wood filler left over from kitchen table dremel-gouge repair job, about $5 and a lot of yelling. Can of Krylon satin spray paint, $4. Got a chinese crappy EER scope for about $45, functional but planning to replace as soon as possible.

Shoots very well, roughly 1.5 MOA from a rest if I do my part. 7x57 is easy on shoulder and gets the job done. Very light, about 6.5 pounds. Only 5 rounds but it does feed from stripper clips. I think If I had it to do over I'd have done one in 6.5 swede and tried to lighten it even more.

 

[c_yeager]

I read somewhere that one could rechamber a .303 enfield to fire 7.62x54R without too much work (same bore diameter). With an no4 you would already have your peep sight, as well as a wealth of cheap practice ammo with some nice commercial options for more serious use. I thought the idea was interesting.

 

[Okiecruffler]

I've used B-Square mounts on M44's, 91/30's and M48's without any problems, but they do take some work to get aligned properly. Almost finished with my "scout" M48A. Need a Timmey trigger for it and a decent sling. Will be Way over weight, but looks nice and traditional.

 

[Slingster]

Terminology check

Not to be pedantic, but Cooper's term "pseudo-Scout" refers to a rifle that is in all aspects a true Scout except in a long instead of short-action chambering, typically of .30-06 class performance, and the weight allowance is also increased from 3 kilograms to 3.5 kilograms (roughly from 6.7 pounds to about 7.5 pounds, if I recall correctly).

What seems to be going on here falls more into the "bargain Scout" category.

 

[Okiecruffler]

Or maybe the "milsurp scout" catagory. I always thought people get too hung up on the gospel according to Cooper. It's not like he was John Browning.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Agreed Okie!

 

[artech]

Amen! While Mr Cooper has done a lot for the industry, he puts his pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us.

Anyone watch Babylon 5? "Put your nose in the book."

Lighten up, folks! it's just someone's opinion!

 

[Okiecruffler]

Don't get me wrong

I'd love to get my Mauser down to 7 lbs, but I ain't loping parts off of an all matching mauser to get there. I'd love to have a removable mag, but I'm plenty quick with clips.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

Okie : I saw a removable magazine they make for the Mauser in a sportsman's guide catalog a while back. I think you just had to take off the old baseplate and it would snap in and out. Maybe 3 or 4 rnd capacity, so you take a hit there. Im pretty happy using clips on my nagant though.

Hope the B-square mount works out for you Risasi.

-Spooky

 

[Okiecruffler]

I've seen those, thought about it, then forgot about it. Wouldn't mind playing with one of those 20 rd trench mags tho. Don't think they fit on the M48.

 

[steelhead]

Here is my attempt at a milsurp scout.

 

[Cosmoline]

Ruger has a new scout rifle coming out. It's called the "Frontier" IIRC, or something like that. Built for use as a scout rifle from the ground up, at a Mark II price (I hope).

Yeah, here it is, just announced last month: