Pulsating Light VS Normal Light

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Puncha

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I went to my local tactical goods dealer lately and he was trying to sell me on the merits of the Blackhawk Gladius flashlight Vs a similarly priced Surefire which was brighter. I need an innoculous tool that has a self defense application and the retailer suggested that the Gladius which has a pulsating light function would be more effective in blinding/dis-orientating an assailent than the surefire even though the surefire had a 125 lumen output while the gladius only had an output of 85 lumens.

So what do you fellas think? Is my retailer trying to sell me some BS? :cuss: Do flashing lights at a certain frequency really mess up the eyes? Or should I just rely on the sudden blast of raw incandessant light that the surefire provides?

Lastly, if one uses either flashlight like a kubotan, which one is tougher, the Gladius or any 2 cell surefire?
 
While I know from experience that a blinking light at the right speed can be quite annoying, there is probably no substitute for retina searing lumen output.

I'd go for the Surefire.
 
Flashing lights are disorienting, but that applies to you as well as the attacker. I'm not sure if you want to be disoriented by the light you use for target identification.
 
Any opinions as to how the Gladius or Surefire (2 cell type) will hold up when used to smack a perp in the head via a hammer strike or hook? :evil:
 
even though the surefire had a 125 lumen output while the gladius only had an output of 85 lumens.

Important not to get hung up on the lumens alone. Lumens is a measure of total output, not how bright the hotspot is. If you buy a Surefire C2, you can get a 60 lumen bulb (runs for 60 minutes) or a 120 lumen bulb (runs for 20 minutes). While bulbs vary, in general, the looking into a 120 lumen bulb doesn't hurt your eyes more than looking into a 60 lumen bulb. Why? Because the hot spot is rougly the same intensity -- it's just that the hot spot on the 120 lumen bulb is bigger, giving it the higher total output.

I haven't looked into a Gladius yet, but reports from people that have say that the result depends on how sensitive the person is to strobing lights. Worst case, some people get merely as disoriented as they would with a Surefire P60 or P61; on the other end of the spectrum, there are people who get much more disoriented and dizzy. I haven't seen anyone report that, as the person actually holding the light, the disorienting effect splashes back. I'm still looking to shine this thing for myself to see, but so far reports on it seem really positive.
 
If you've ever had a Surefire shined in your face you will know exactly how incapacitating that light can be. Get the Surefire.
 
If you have ever had a Gladius shined in your face in direct comparison to a Surefire all the way up to any of their standard head 125 lumen versions, it will become immediately apparent to you the tighter LED frequency, strobing Gladius is much more difficult to look at.

As in take a SF 6P, 9P, M3 and do a side by side in the dark, in your face. I do have some direct experience with Surefire lights.

The idea is that it is just as disorienting to you is simply not the case, mostly put forth by speculative people, not the ones handling these things.

Think standing behind a large speaker as opposed to standing in front of it.

Get the Gladius... :D

Higher power incandescent lights still out-throw LEDs, but that gap will be closed in the next couple of years.

Following force-on-force training we offer, folks are opting to purchase the Gladius at a buy rate of 70% of the participants. When you are dealing with people that shoot back, the Gladius is the choice for many of these guys.

An opinion...No bias here... :rolleyes:

Respectfully,

Ken J. Good
Night-Ops Illumination tools
Strategos International
 
Is the motivation of the salesman based on relative prices of the two options?

If the gladius is the cheaper of the two, maybe not.

Also, what does He know about SD (remember to switch on your BS detector!)
 
An additional factor to consider (and probably dismiss, for obvious reasons) is that strobes at certain frequencies can trigger epileptic fitting in susceptible people.

Two points: (i) is it likely that anyone would be allowed to sell a device that was designed to trigger epilepsy? and (ii) do you want to take the chance that your random attacker is one of those that is susceptible?
 
Here is what we have put on the website:
___________________________

This is an important question and the phenomenon is known as photosensitive epilepsy.

If the subject is being hostile, then any number of less lethal alternatives can be selected to handle them. All have downstream consequences if deployed at the inappropriate time or manner. The use of light is clearly at low end of any disruption protocol.

A certain percentage of the population can experience extreme reactions to strobing light; be prepared for severe disorientation and even seizures in some individuals.

Some Background:

Contrary to popular belief, only a small percentage of people with epilepsy are especially sensitive to flickering light patterns, such as sunlight, strobe lights or computer screen flicker. This condition is known as photosensitive epilepsy. A flickering fluorescent light, the flicker of sunlight while driving past standing trees or on water and other reflective surfaces, certain video games, or flashing strobe lights can trigger seizures in photosensitive people.

(SOURCE: Epilepsy Foundation 4351 Garden City Drive Landover, MD 20785-7223 www.epilepsyfoundation.org)

Given 2.5 million Americans have some form of epilepsy

- 5% of epileptics are subject to the phenomena of Photosensitive epilepsy (125,000)

- Most of these 125K fall into the age range of 8-20 years - This eliminates many of the potential encounters

- Most of these are the female - This further reduces the population base

- The phenomenon is strobe rate specific, color frequency specific, as well as field of view specific and other factors play into it - This further reduces the probability of an episode.

- The Gladius Flashlight is strobing at a rate below the optimal range of 15-20 for this phenomena although other sources indicate lower rates can trigger this response - This further reduces the probability of an event. The probably of it happening are much higher from the same subject watching T.V. or playing video games. Natural light sources are just as likely to trigger seizures in a photosensitive individual as artificial ones. For example, sunlight shining off water or through the leaves of trees, or rapidly flickering as a person travels past railings, can trigger seizures.

See: http://www.nfld.net/epilepsy/laephotosensitive.html#whatisphoto


Should something occur, recommended procedures include but are not limited to:

Stay calm. Help, but don't force, the person to lie down on his or her side, preferably on a soft surface, and place something soft under the person's head. Take the person's glasses or backpack off and loosen any tight clothing near the neck. Don't restrain or hold the person.

Do not put your fingers in the mouth or worry about the tongue.

Move objects, especially sharp or hard ones, away from the person. Stay with the person or make sure another friend or trusted person stays with him or her. Talk with the person in a calm, reassuring way after the seizure is over. Observe the event and be able to describe what happened before, during, and after the seizure.

When the shaking stops put them in the "recovery" position (laying on left side); Reassure and expect them to be very confused, they will likely have been incontinent of at least urine, they may have vomited.

They may be paralyzed on one side of the body - this usually resolves (Called Todd's paralysis) but beware the first thing that happened to them is they dropped completely unprotected to the ground and could have head injuries or could have neck injuries.

Bring up a tactical medic or tactical physician, or call an EMS unit by dialing 911 in most areas.
 
15-20 Hz? (I'll remember that!)

I was thinking that relying on this effect would be foolish because the attacker would be unlikely to be susceptible (and the statistics quoted seem to support this). If they did succumb, then I don't think that any sensible person would hang around to see if they were OK.

Anyway, as I think Don Rearic said, the idea is to 'flash and smash' (I won't elaborate for legal reasons :). In fact, why don't you check out Don's excellent site (http://www.donrearic.com) where he covers flashlights and much else besides.
 
good info Ken, very illuminating (sorry). Seriously, I did question the logic of a strobe because of the disco effect mentioned above. It does sound like you could work some tactics around the deployment of the light. Now I just have to justify the money. I thought I paid way too much for my E2D, now I don't feel too bad. Thats a lot of bones for a light though.
 
Every time I've been on the dance floor and they light the strobes it looks to me like everyone is moving in slo-mo, or just standing there, and not dancing. I don't think I would want to get in a fight where I'm looking at a punch or worse coming at me in slo-mo, but it's really moving normal speed.
 
Just a question about the durability of the Blackhawk relative say to a SF M2 (green hard anodized finish).

I have updated my M2 Centurion to the 5W LED head and was pretty much thinkin' it was the cat's meow but I like the looks of the Blackhawk. Not sure what to make of the "liquid ceramic coating" though. I know my M2 is tougher n' nails and with the LED installed I don't have to worry so much about bustin' a filament.

But the Blackhawk looks cool whether the strobe effect is hype or hip.

Tim
 
Ken Good,
It is really annoying when people who know what they are talking about post facts.
Please stick to unsubstantiated rumors and opinions and conspiracy theories.
:D

Welcome!
 
Threadkiller

We initially went with the Cerakote (liquid ceramic) finish.

Reasons:
- Much more uniform finish, pleasing the eye & an excellent tactile fee.
- Many more color possibilities
- Excellent UV & chemical resistance
- Successfully used in many heavy-duty use\heat situations including Gun Coating
- Can impregnate it to alter thermal and electrical conductivity properties
- Did not want to be perceived as an "also ran" light. We wanted to bust the box all the way around on this light

Reality:
- We cannot find a vendor that can consistently apply the coating so that EVERY light finish has the durability we are looking for.

So we switched our Black Color to a matt finish Type III Hard Ano. All Black colored lights are delivered in the HA as of a few weeks ago.

We will probably switch our other colors to HA. That being said, we are getting feedback from folks that they do not want us to switch....So there ya go.

SureFire makes excellent, proven lights. You really cannot go wrong there.

The Gladius is different light in many regards to anything else out there. It is not for everybody. We understand that and did not design it to get into a mass production light.

Look to Night-Ops for our upcoming releases in the next few months. We are going to have a few lower cost alternatives to the other guys. But here is the key, they will be more feature rich and outperform the current best light in the categories they are in.


shermacman

Thanx for the welcome. I don’t like posting commercials on discussion boards. But when asked, I will try and be as forthright as possible.

Best to everybody.

Ken J. Good
Night-Ops Illumination Tools
 
Hm.

Welcome, Ken. My opinions have nothing to do with you personally...but I hate Blackhawk's advertising. To the point that I will buy competitor's products if I believe they are at all competitive in price and capability. I am also unsold on the idea of light to disorient/daze.

I *do* believe in having good lights; I just don't expect to stop anyone with just the light beam.

John
 
Well....I cannot fix your initial concern.

I will say that I will do my utmost to keep the Night-Ops advertising within reasonable limits as I have strong influence over it.

A few things to consider:

A quality LED light that emits 80 lumens “hits” the opponent like a more powerful incandescent, say 125+ lumens when directed into the pupils. I am not a light expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I surmise that it is because the LED is emitting along a tighter range of frequencies than its incandescent counterpart.

Strobing Light vs. Constant ON
This is a whole new debate as the Gladius is the first light specifically design to harness this known effect is a small handheld/weapon-mounted device.

I say, from this point forward, things are going to be shifted to one degree or another.

Do a bit of due diligence on the internet and see what the known effects of strobing light are. They include loss of spacial awareness, depth perception and balance. The effects can be more pronounced. On the other hand, the subject may not have any noticeable effects other than they cannot see what is directly in front of them.

I am not here to convince the unconvinced, it is futile.

He is what we are experiencing:

1. Somebody comes to the booth, interested or skeptical about the effects of the strobe. Okay, fair enough. Let me walk you over to our dark room over here. Stand there for a second. “Can I strobe you in the face?”….”Yes, go ahead”….” This is normally followed by a “FU*(K”, Jeeez….OH…..” or something along those lines. We do a few more unbalancing demonstrations to further bring the point home….Normally folks (these are guys are ones doing the job professionally) are walking out of the dark room smiling, shaking their head & looking to tell their friends.

2. We (Strategos International) regularly conduct rigorous Force-on-Force training in reduced light environments. We do not tell folks to get this light or that light. Bring what you have and let’s go from there. There is zero sell going on during the week. We simply use the Gladius during the drills and scenarios. If questions are asked, we answer them completely.

Following our training, the purchase rate for the Gladius is in the 70%+ range. Last class we had a 150% sell through rate (some guys bought more than one). This occurs despite the fact that the Gladius is one of the most expensive lights on the market. (It is expensive to make as well).

Why is this? I can speak from practical experience. When you are on the receiving end of this light in strobe mode coupled with an operator that knows how to leverage the effects, it is convincing, period.

That is the booth at a trade show and training.

Still does not cut it….The only thing that really matters is what is happening in an actual operational capacity.

I can tell you I receive several emails a weeks where the light was directly attributed to a swift conclusion and it functions as advertised in a disorienting capacity.

Is it going to drop people in their tracks?….Absolutely not. It will however give an individual or team (more times than not) a larger reactionary gap from which to work within. This gap must be filled with decisive and intelligent action to subdue opponents.

Best to you.

Respectfully,

Ken J. Good
Night-Ops Illumination Tools
 
Mr. Good,

Your reasoned response is appreciated. :)

LEDs, in my experience, do appear "brighter" when viewed directly than most incandescent light sources. This does of course come at the loss of some distance capability, though IIRC, the Luxeon is a compromise with longer range and somewhat less life (not arguing that the projected 70,000 useful hours isn't enough) than typical LEDs.

Best of luck,

John Shirley
 
Actually the Gladius out throws quite few 2-battery incandescent lights that many are currently carrying.

If you search http://candlepowerforums.com you will see that there has been extensive testing of the Gladius by folks that break this stuff down the Nth degree.

If you go here: http://www.night-ops.com/Gladius-Product-Reviews.htm & select the Imagometrics.com review, he gets into target recognition distances.

Does a high-power incandescent light with a larger reflector out throw the current LED’s lights out there? Yes. That is why I have not tossed my SureFire M500's (A, A/B, B models), M3 Turboheads with MN10 & MN11 lamps or M4 lights with 350 & 500 lumen lamp assemblies. They are awesome lights.

Prediction: LED's will close the gap faster and faster. Given the superb reliability of LED's, incandescents will fall by the wayside in terms of professional tactical use.
 
Ken, I am curious as to why anyone would be opposed to a HA finish on their light. To me it seems like a very good choice for a combat light. I admit I am not acquainted with all the options, whatever they may be, but I am convinced that HA is tough stuff and probably can handle way more than I will dish out.

Thanks for your input.

Tim
 
abaddon
The best way I can describe it is it like being behind a speaker emitting a loud sound as opposed to being in front of the speaker.

Is it different? Yes. Is it disorienting? Not to me or anybody else I have had close contact with using the Gladius.

Light discipline involves being aware of how close you shine your light (any light for that matter) to your location and what type/color of surface you are shinning it off of. In some situations you can temporarily degrade your own ability to see if you are sloppy.

At this point I prefer to search in the Strobe Mode as opposed to the Momentary Mode. It is like spraying an area with a rapid fire weapon. I get a really clear picture of what is going on very rapidly. Then I move from that location (if possible) and then reprocess what I just saw. If something bothers me, I paint it again.

If several folks in a team (assuming they know what they are doing) are using the Strobe Mode inside a structure and you are barricaded in somewhere you will have a difficult time getting a clear understanding of exactly what is happening. This is definitely an advantage when competing for time and space.

When you do get somebody pinned (strobe in the pupils) and have the opportunity/option to control them in a less lethal manner, the “hands-on” guy will find the subject completely unaware of his rapid advance and the take-down will generally occur much easier.

Threadkiller
I cannot account for everybody’s decision-making processes or preferences. I like HA, it is a proven finish. I would prefer the Cerakote if we could get it to perform as advertised by the manufacturer.

Respectfully,

Ken J. Good
 
Thank you Ken. That definately clears up the tactics questions that I was having. Makes a lot of sense. I appreciate the informed input.
 
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