Quantcast

Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

Discussion in 'Air Guns' started by cobalt327, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9,370
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Neat work, and well done too. I dont think ive ever seen anybody mod out these single strokes, pretty dang cool. Ive done quite a bit of airgun modding but never worked on one of these i may have to go get one to try this stuff on. Im interested in the chrono results also.
     
  2. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    Thanks for that, LW.

    Yeah, I'm bummed that the chrono is taking the scenic route to reach me. As soon as they confirm they've received it back and my account has been refunded, I'll reorder it. I don't dare reorder it until then, else I could end up w/two of them sitting on my porch!

    These BB guns are a marvel of simplicity and inexpensive manufacturing. As I look at the individual components, it's easy to imagine how they could be improved- but doing much more than boring the air tube and adding a spring spacer could increase the cost, putting them in direct competition w/the multi-pump pneumatics.

    At some point I expect the next weak link to surface. Whether that'll be the shot tube assembly being displaced by the hammering from the plunger assembly (shot tube is held in place by some rather insignificant-looking staked areas) or if the trigger is overstressed, or something else altogether, remains to be seen. Just the same, I want to see what can be done regarding a stiffer and lighter (or at least no heavier) plunger tube that will not deform under a higher rate main spring, combined w/a stronger spring, possibly one for an R7 .

    Truth be told, an older lever action Daisy w/removable shot tube and steel trigger would be a better candidate for hopping up- besides the robust, uber simple trigger, they also have a separate metal “abutment plug” that the shot tube threads into. This type abutment plug would be easier to secure in place than the plastic and pot metal abutment plug that’s built into the shot tube of the new guns. I have an order in w/DAMACO (Daisy parts order fulfillment center) that includes the separate abutment plug for a Daisy 499B. Once I have it in hand I’ll see if it can be used to convert a new style gun into one that’ll work w/a screw-in shot tube. Unfortunately the old steel trigger won’t work in a new style gun, well, not w/o drilling new holes through the receiver. Same thing for the (very nice) all-steel 499B trigger assembly- no fit w/o some serious hoop jumping.
     
  3. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9,370
    Location:
    Hawaii
    I think youll prolly fjnd the link if u go to a heavier mainspring. I havnt handled anew redryder style gun but the old ones ive played with seemed well over built for what they did. Adding much more force to the mainspring would prolly do it tho.
     
  4. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    I agree. As it stands now, the 'legs' of the plunger tube are the limiting factor as far as adding a stronger spring goes. I reinforced the plunger tube best as I could using some wooden doweling (photo of this in post #6) but what's really needed is for the legs to be stronger- like they are on the older models. The difference isn't very big but it goes a long ways towards keeping the legs from deforming. There's enough difference between the old and new plunger tubes to keep the old plunger tube from working in a new gun, so about all that's left is to modify the new tube. Or to use the plunger tube from a Cowboy- it uses a tube same dimensions as the older style Daisy lever gun, ca. 1970. I don't have a Daisy older than that to compare.

    DAISY_PLUNGERS_wide_legs-text.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2016
  5. Kookla

    Kookla Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2015
    Messages:
    808
    Cobalt- how easy did you find these to work on?

    These posts are great.
     
  6. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    Thanks.

    TL/DR
    Dis- and re-assembly can be done by anyone w/a modicum of mechanical aptitude. A spring compressor is needed, can be homemade.

    The Cowboy and Daisy both come apart the same way- you use a spring compressor, most people make their own. There are several tutorials online regarding this. Or a nice one can be bought for $50.00:eek: I've read that some people have gotten away w/using just a screwdriver but I do NOT recommend this, especially not to reassemble it.

    So the compressor compresses the spring, this takes the pressure off of the spring anchor. Then you wiggle the anchor out of the receiver and gently release pressure on the spring. The plunger assembly is now free to be removed from the breech end of the receiver. There are some sharp edges inside the receiver, so to keep from getting nicked I use a screwdriver or hook of some sort to pull it free. A good hook can be easily made from a coat hanger.

    The spring is not very strong so this isn't particularly hard to do from a strength standpoint, but the end of the spring where the compressor has to contact isn't exposed very well, so at first it may look more daunting than it actually is. But if you look over the online info and/or use a flashlight, you will see the spring and where the compressor needs to contact it.

    Once the plunger assembly is out, the spring and piston can be removed from the plunger tube by compressing the spring a little by hand, this lets the pin holding them together to be removed. Might need to use a needle nose to pull the pin out easier.

    Reassembly isn't hard either, the only part I found to be difficult was putting the anchor back in right. It can be inserted behind the pin that it rides against, it needs to be in front of it. You will see what I mean if/when you get into it.
     
  7. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    Assembly tip

    Something that should be checked is that the plunger tube is not twisted. Because the tube is formed from a single piece of flat stock, there's a gap (seen on the tube at 12 0'clock) where the ends are rolled together. This isn't spot welded so it's not hard to twist the tube. The piston and shot tube have a sort of tongue and groove relationship that has to be maintained. Should the gun be assembled w/the tube twisted, it could cost some power and cause undue wear due to the mismatch between the mating surfaces.

    DAISY_PLUNGER_TUBE_SQUARE_TEXT.jpg DAISY_PISTON-SHOT_TUBE_ORIENTATION.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  8. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    Chronograph

    Finally have it on the way again. The problem was the automated system couldn't decipher my address for unknown reasons. I have to think something odd should have been flagged for human inspection. But in any event all's been straightened out and after several somewhat tense emails and waiting for a month it should be here any day now (touch wood).

    In addition to the chrono, I ordered several types of BBs to evaluate for velocity and accuracy. I had first intended to only test the two types I already had on hand, but what the heck- in for a dime, in for a dollar. And it's not like they'll go to waste!

    BB Guns To Be Tested
    • Stock Red Ryder
    • Stock Daisy Buck
    • Stock Daisy Model 25 pump
    • Stock Sheridan Cowboy
    • Modified Red Ryder #1
    • Modified Red Ryder #2
    • Modified Red Ryder #3

    "Maybe's"
    • Modified Sheridan Cowboy
    • Modified Daisy Model 25 pump
    • Modified Daisy Buck
    • Modified Daisy Model 104 (ca. 1970)
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
  9. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    FedEx to the rescue!

    [​IMG]

    BBs:
    • Crossman Copperhead
    • Umarex Precision Steel
    • Hornady Black Diamond
    • Daisy Match Grade Avanti Precision Ground Shot
    • Daisy Precision Max zinc plated (ordinary Walmart)
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 13, 2016
  10. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9,370
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Hey NICE!

    Also same.chrony i have lol, been good for my airguns, bows, and rifles
     
  11. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    Good to hear! I've always wanted one but always seem to put it off for one reason or another. It has decent reviews and about the only thing that could be a bother is some say it doesn't like to be used indoors. But I have a couple ideas for indoor lighting loosely based on what I read online. If you happen to have a solution, I'd appreciate a heads-up... thumbsup.gif
     
  12. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9,370
    Location:
    Hawaii
    i just made a holder for two 12" work lights, i aftually left it at work but its basicly just a plex sheet that i sand blasted, that the lights sit on to act like big skyscreens. so far its worked with everything ive put thru it...day light accuracy can be a little setch as velocity climbs, i use my 7mm that ive check velocity on a few times as my "standard" just to make sure its not more than +/-50fps.
     
  13. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    Thanks for the tip. I have a sandblaster and some plexi already so might give this type dissipater/screen a try using leds.
     
  14. Deltaboy1984

    Deltaboy1984 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2008
    Messages:
    7,033
    Location:
    Johnson County Texas
    Nice job folks .
     
  15. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    The chronograph is here and is up and running. Was a bit worried about it having a problem 'seeing' shiny, zinc plated BBs but no problem- it works really well. Only used it outdoors, supposedly indoors can be a bit tricky regarding lighting as was mentioned earlier but for now, outside is fine.

    Preliminary testing of 5 of the 6 BB guns (the Sheridan Cowboy is missing- it has yet to be reassembled after taking photos) using readily available (Walmart in my case) Daisy Precision Max zinc plated BBs gave the following results:

    STOCK DAISY MODEL 105 BUCK
    • 260 fps

    STOCK DAISY MODEL 25
    • 282 fps

    STOCK DAISY RED RYDER
    • 270 fps

    MODIFIED RED RYDER #1
    Drilled air tube to 3/32” ID
    Preloaded spring 7/8”
    • 328 fps

    MODIFIED RED RYDER #2
    Drilled air tube to 3/32” ID
    Preloaded spring 1/2”
    • 335 fps

    NOTE: Velocities are an average of 20 shots per gun. None showed a large variation low to high. The Daisy Model 25 was the most consistent. All 5 guns are due for oiling. I wanted to first test them like this, then again after a couple drops of 30w non detergent motor oil was added through the oil holes to see what, if any, difference oiling makes to MV.

    The Daisy Precision Max BBs averaged 5.32 grains for 50 BBs. The zinc plating looks to be uniform, no voids or flat spots were noted. Individually they seem to be uniform when measured several times across different axes.
    The diameters broke down as follows (50 BBs, measured in inches):
    • .1710- 3
    • .1715-1
    • .1720-13
    • .1725- 13
    • .1730- 18
    • .1735- 1
    • .1740- 1
     
  16. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9,370
    Location:
    Hawaii
    Nice velocity increase for the mods done!
     
  17. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    Sheridan Cowboy

    There has been some back-and-forth online regarding how much (if any) resemblance there is between the Daisy Red Ryder and the Sheridan Cowboy. I hope to shed some light on this.

    PLUNGER SPRING
    I disassembled the Cowboy (takedown is same as a Daisy) and found a stronger plunger spring. Relaxed, it’s 0.75” longer (7.75”) and is made of wire that’s 0.003” larger in diameter. The spring ID is the same as a Daisy, the OD only a smidgen larger. Using an online calculator, the new style Daisy spring rate is calculated to be about 15.1 pounds per inch. The Cowboy spring rate is about 17.44 pounds per inch or about 15% greater than the Red Ryder. Ends are ground flat like the new Daisy, and is dipped in a translucent red dye.

    AIR TUBE
    Exact same design and function. Maybe a little too exact. Unfortunately the air tube has the same ID as the Daisy, and the air tube is slightly longer to boot. It’s my opinion that the stronger spring is largely negated by the one simple omission of opening the air tube ID to 3/32”.

    PLUNGER HEAD (or PISTON)
    Same dimensionally, but made of a translucent material that looks similar to urethane. Under close examination this particular Cowboy seal is not molded as precisely as the black Daisy seal. Durometer-wise the two are similar. It shows different mold marks than Daisy but if not for the color/material difference, it would be hard to tell one from the other at arm's length. Same washer and pin, no differences there. The Cowboy wiper is much like what Daisy used to use- dense felt. Daisy now uses a lightweight open cell foam material.

    PLUNGER TUBE
    The first thing I noticed is the Cowboy plunger tube is equipped with a plastic roller that rides along the top inside of the receiver. I like the concept, but I also have to say I’ve not noticed any excessive contact between the receiver and plunger tube on any of the Daisies I’ve had apart- so whether it’s an actual improvement or something that seems like a good idea but has little real world effect on reliability and longevity remains to be seen. Other than the roller, the plunger tubes are essentially identical, w/one important difference: the Cowboy’s plunger tube “legs” are wider than those on the new Daisy. In fact, they're the same as was used in the old steel trigger/removable shot tube lever action Daisies. This difference keeps the stronger spring from excessively bowing the legs, which could cause them to contact the spring ID- causing vibration, power loss and wear.

    TRIGGER
    The triggers are very similar, but there are a few differences. The most notable is, unlike the Daisy the Cowboy trigger assembly is held together with three screws and a removable clip- in other words, it can be taken apart. The triggers are interchangeable, but functionally and feel-wise the triggers are basically the same, so unless work were to be done to improve it there’d be nothing to gain by swapping the triggers. Both triggers share the same anti beartrap ‘rack’ and spring but they were not made on the same presses.

    LEVER
    A lot has been made of Daisy using a plastic material for the lever, and an equal amount has been said regarding the Cowboy having a metal lever. All I will say about that is, I much prefer the Daisy lever- be it plastic or metal. Overall I feel it’s a better design. I found the Cowboy lever to be uncomfortable to use due to the sharper edges it has, along w/a lack of room for my trigger finger. Others may find the opposite to be true. In any event, the levers are not interchangeable because the pivot hole placement and ratio is different between them. So what you see is what you get although there is an aftermarket big hoop lever available for the Daisy, and Daisy will sell you a curved lever (metal or plastic) for a few bucks.

    REPLACEMENT PARTS
    Daisy has a better replacement parts program than what Crosman has for the Sheridan Cowboy. With Daisy you can build a Model 499B from parts (actually cheaper than you can buy one assembled) and for other current production models most parts are available (with some omissions for some models). All that’s readily available for the Cowboy are the cocking lever, rear sight parts, front sight/barrel plug and some assorted screws and nuts.


    OTHER DETAILS
    • The Cowboy uses a separate receiver “shell” (“Barrel Shroud-A” on the diagram) over the barrel shroud/compression chamber.
    • Stock, forearm/forearm band and receivers are not interchangeable.
    • Daisy uses standard screws and nuts, the Cowboy uses sleeved screws/nuts.
    • The cross pin for the spring anchor/takedown key is removable on the Cowboy, the Daisy uses a rivet.
    • The plastic sliding BB loading ‘door’ looks and works the same way as the new Daisy.
    • The combination front sight/barrel plug is similar in function to the Daisy, but is larger in diameter to match the Cowboy’s outer barrel.
    • The front sight blade is shaped differently.
    • The Cowboy rear sights are screwed on, making windage adjustment a possibility. Daisy tack welds theirs. Both are elevation adjustable.
    • As for the shot tube, I did not compare it since it’s not meant to be removed. By what can be seen, it looks very similar but there may be details that aren’t readily apparent.
    • The Cowboy uses a small ‘window’ through the top of the receiver similar to Daisy, to see if a BB is in place.

    That’s about it for now. I’ll update if anything else surfaces.

    Sheridan_cowboy_parts_list-diagram.jpg
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2016
  18. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    I'm happy w/what I've seen so far. There's more to be had to be sure, but the main thing I like is the increase in range. I like to be able to use a proper sight picture and have the trajectory flat enough to hit targets quite a bit further away than when the gun was stock.

    I would like to see at least 350 fps, using factory parts. To that end, besides comparing different BBs for velocity, and eventually accuracy, I think the next BB gun test will be to increase the air tube ID beyond 3/32" to see if there's more to be had there. That's if I can source a long enough drill bit. Ideally, this- w/the preloaded Daisy spring I'm now using (whose durability/reliability I'm comfortable with)- will be the 'sweet spot' for the Red Ryder and other similar Daisies.

    Another possibility is to use the stiffer Cowboy spring in the Red Ryder. This test would be more of a "how much MV can be had regardless of reliability/practicality" type deal.
    The preloaded factory Daisy spring puts it about on par w/the factory Cowboy spring, so I plan to use a similar amount of preload on the Cowboy spring as I'm now using on the Daisy spring. I feel this much spring rate may well exceed the design limits of a Daisy plunger tube (and possibly the limits of how well the shot tube assembly is staked into the receiver). I'll likely need to use the Cowboy plunger tube, possibly w/some added strengthening, and I won't be surprised if this pushes the envelope too far- these guns just weren't meant to handle excessive spring pressure.
     
  19. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9,370
    Location:
    Hawaii
    This is great info, these are such cool little guns. Im likely gonna buy one to tinker with soon and having all the difference noted will help with ehqt i choose to buy
     
  20. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    I wish the Cowboy had just a few things done differently. The Cowboy's lever hole location is such that less lever travel is needed to cock the gun than with the Daisy. But that also means it's harder to cock for any given spring rate and there's more stress put on the lever, the lever mounting hardware and the receiver where the lever is located. And adding spring preload will only make this worse. And I find the Cowboy lever to be uncomfortable to use- although that's rather subjective.

    I haven't done any 'formal' accuracy testing w/the Cowboy yet, but casual plinking indicates it's nothing special. I'll be surprised if it's as good as the 3 Red Ryders I have on hand, and not at all surprised if it's worse. But this is only one example. Online reviews seem to support what I've seen regarding accuracy but at this point I'm not ready to say the Cowboy is inherently inaccurate.

    Bottom line at this juncture is, even w/the uncomfortable lever I'd like to recommend the Cowboy because it has more potential due to the stronger spring and plunger tube and the added roller on the plunger tube. But until I do further testing for accuracy and to see how it responds to having the spring preloaded and the air tube opened up like on the modified Daisies, I'm hesitant to do so. It's a shame that Crosman won't sell the spring/plunger assembly as replacement parts, I have a feeling (that I will soon be testing) that these parts added to a Red Ryder will make for a very nice shooting BB gun.
     
  21. flightsimmer

    flightsimmer Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    365
    Location:
    S.E. Indy
    I remember when I was a kid, one of the guys had a BB gun that would shoot through one side of a galvanized, steel trash can. That was of course before lawyers got involved.
    I have a new model #25 that could stand a little +P.
     
  22. flightsimmer

    flightsimmer Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2008
    Messages:
    365
    Location:
    S.E. Indy
    Oh, I do have a chronograph and I've checked all of my guns, including the Daisy mode! #25 and I also did extensive testing of all the brand's of BB's that I could find, including precision ground BB's, I even used a micrometer to sort sizes for testing and I used three different barrels in the same gun.
    The conclusion was that the barrel made more of a difference than anything else.
    One barrel was definitely more accurate than the others, especially in point of aim.
     
  23. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    That's interesting. I see no reason you couldn't do the same mods to a Model 25 as I've done to the Red Ryder, with similar results. I've not taken a 25 apart all the way yet, but if you're familiar w/how it's done and have (or can make) a spring compressor, I'd say go for it!

    I'd like to see what a Daisy Model 499B ("World's Most Accurate BB Gun") barrel would perform like, mated to the Red Ryder type shot tube assembly. Might not be very practical but the 499B shot tube assembly is available for $9.00, so at least it could be done should anyone be so inclined. I'm still playing w/the idea of 'choking' the RR barrel, using a tubing cutter w/blunt rollers replacing the cutting wheels. Will be interesting to see if there's any improvement in accuracy.

    I have a parts order in w/Daisy, in it is a Model 25 shot tube assembly. Still waiting for a missing part for the order to ship. I don't really expect the Model 25 barrel to be significantly better than the RR- likely they're the same quality and it would be the luck of the draw to get a better one. Wonder if I should add a 499B barrel assembly to the order... haha

    I mic'ed a sample of 50 BBs from each of the 5 types I have. The largest diameter are the Daisy Match Grade Avanti BBs. They look great- highly polished and VERY uniform in diameter and finish. Look just like little precision ball bearings. Hopefully they'll perform as well as they look. Smallest was the Crosman Copperheads. They are from a carton I bought in the early '90s- I hope new production are better than these- besides being the smallest in average diameter, they're very inconsistent in size, have voids in the plating and are generally a hot mess. I don't expect them to do well at all, but I will give them their day in court along w/a newly bought sample as well.

    But I'm getting ahead of myself. All the details will follow as I shoot them for velocity and accuracy. Stay tuned...
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2016
  24. LoonWulf
    • Contributing Member

    LoonWulf Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    9,370
    Location:
    Hawaii
    How large are the ods on the barrel. It might be pissible to retrofit a 6mm airsoft tightbore to it and shoot the aluminum airsoft bbs. Ive seen better accuracy from them than standard airgun bbs, even with the hop up turned off....might be able to get the hopup system working even....now i NEED one of these.
     
  25. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Location:
    USA
    I don't know much about airsoft. The outer barrel shroud on the Red Ryder is around 7/8", the Cowboy is a bit larger, about 15/16". The actual barrel/shot tube is about 1/4" OD. I think the shot tube could be removed from the assembly that it's part of, then it should be possible to fit a larger OD tube after the necessary mods were made.

    One thing that might be an issue is the swept volume of the Daisy compression chamber is just 1.2 ci. Don't know if that's enough, but as long as leakage was kept low, it might be.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice