Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

[cobalt327]

Thank's for the info.
I have it totally apart at the moment but when I get it back together I will try that first thing.
Good thing the grandson is in school this week so I wont get caught. LOL
I got the inside tube straightened, I used a deep socket that fit perfect inside it and got it looking pretty good.
Actually the metal is fairly soft so it bends easily. (part of the problem)
I also honed all the gouges out of the inside of the inner tube so it's now nice and smooth and I will repolish the sear plate and I'm working on putting a roller on the tip of the cocking lever.
Your comment about the geometry of the lever tip being off got me thinking that maybe without the abutment seal the whole assembly would be about 1/4" farther into the hole, would that change the geometry ?
Do you think this could be the issue?
I think when I reassemble it I will put the abutment seal back in just for giggles and grins .
Thanks again !
Terry

TBH, I had forgotten about it having no abutment seal. I could be wrong, but weren't you having problems with the abut. seal in place and that's why you removed it?

I'm assuming at one time the gun was working normally, before any changes were made. At what change or changes did problems begin?

On the frame I have here I wouldn't call the sheet steel of the inner tube soft, so it makes me wonder if it's become permanently fatigued from the flexing.

 

[cobalt327]

I gotta Red Ryder 1988 50th anniversary model with a little gold medalion in the stock. (Present from my wife). Will shoot thru both sides beer can. Shoot thru bottom and leave dent on top.
My childhood (I'm 73) mdl 102 will sometimes penetrate one side, sometimes not.
You have to say one thing - Daisy made a gun that would last!

I agree, kell! I have a 1940 (first year) model 111-40 with the copper bands. When I got it, it was sorry looking but still shot. So I soaked the leather seals and after cleaning it up, I shot it across my chrony and it astounded me because at 330 fps it is still to this day the hardest hitting unmodified Daisy lever action BB gun I own, and it is 100% original- spring, seals, air tube, shot tube, the works!

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks again for the reply Colbalt
OK, I have a confession to make about the seal.
I thought I didn't have an abutment seal in the gun but when I took it apart this time guess what came out................a new abutment seal.
Only thing I can figure is when I got the parts from you I put the new in and forgot that I did ? (this "CRS" that ya get when you get old really sucks) Anyway I hope I didn't cause any body any problems with my "misinformation" I will try to do better in the future.
Moving on, Yes the gun worked good after I resealed it and put one of your springs in it.
But is slowly declined in the cocking and got to the point it would not cock at all.
At that point I took it apart and straightened the inner tube, reassembled and she worked fine for a while then slowly went to difficult to cock it should be smooth as silk but it was grinding like a shift car without a clutch.
I will fix it, not sure how just yet but I will .
I did take my grandsons RR apart yesterday and compared the cocking lever to mine and it looks like I have lost about 1/4" at the tip.
I have a steel roller made up but haven't drilled and taped for the through screw or cut the slot in the lever for the roller.
I think I will gain about 1/8" at the tip when done? If I need more I can make another larger roller.
As to the stressed metal my plan is to solder some brass reinforcements inside the receiver between the receiver wall and the inner tube wall, hopefully this will keep the inner tube from spreading and "IF" the roller on the lever works as I think it will, it shouldn't pull down on the sear plate it should just push it back and cock properly ?????
I am also thinking about making an aluminum or wood slug to glue inside the piston assembly to keep it from deflecting?
Do you know if anyone has made a solid Alum. or billet steel piston assembly?
This is sure a bunch of work for a BB gun, what am I thinking? LOL
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

No worries re the seal being in the gun, it makes no real difference as far as spit-balling what the problem might be. And I totally understand the CRS deal- hate it!

A 1/4" loss at the tip is a lot. I'd suggest trying the good lever before doing any reinforcing or adding a roller. The stock lever has been reliable, especially the metal one. Even plastic levers will go for a ton of cycles before the tip wears down enough to need replacement.

Earlier, we talked about a billet plunger tube, but no one has made one as far as I know. I tried a wooden dowel inside the plunger tube, but it didn't make any difference. Another member did, too but I don't remember his results. But if you want to give it a go, why not?

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks for the free pass on the CRS I needed a break. LOL
Speaking of the abutment seal and the geometry of the lever, I found that if you take away the 1/4" of space the rubber seal takes up it will change where the tip of the lever lands because the whole assembly is farther into the hole. Put that together with a worn tip and all of a sudden your not cocking.
Ask me how I know that ? LOL
I have already done the reinforcing and the roller, both work just fine and I gained back an 1/8" on the tip of the lever with the roller. It's cocking now but I'm testing with the stock spring, when I get it all sorted out with that I will install your super spring and see what goes?
I have a new to me used lever on the way so I will try that when it gets here, my wife found out I was going to take the grandsons RR apart and it wasn't pretty, so I'll wait until the replacement gets here.
About the plunger tube, what are your thoughts about the material ?
Do ya think aluminum would work or would it have to be steal ? (I hate machining steel)
Brass would probably be to heavy ?
I'm probably wrong but it doesn't look like to hard of a part to make? Although I probably should take a better look before I let my mouth overload my rear.
Suggestions welcome...................
Thanks Terry

 

[cobalt327]

Good job on the roller tip, and I'm glad it's coming around for you. Aluminum should work, I would think. But I'm not a machinist so can't comment on the level of difficulty. FWIW, I always thought aluminum would make the shot cycle milder, too. This gun is giving you OJT in spades!!

 

[TerryCowger]

I'll have to get a picture of the roller tip for your database .
I'm not sure what OJT means but I can tell ya it's keeping me awake at nite.
Speaking of the tube, would you think it has to be a rectangle shape at the sear end?
Also, could the slot be narrower, as the cocking lever and the trigger are only about 1/4" thick ?
That alone would make it much stronger = more spring ?
This is not something I'm going to mass produce, if it even works I would only be making a few, if that?

Thanks for reading my ramblings...........LOL
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

Thank you for the photos- very nice work!

On the shape of the end of the plunger tube, the plunger tube slot needs to be wide enough for the spring anchor and lever. If It was me, I'd use the same width as the stock plunger tube- in any event, you want to avoid friction from the spring anchor. The legs don't need to be rounded on the inside the way they are when formed with sheet steel, though, so the straight walls inside the slot alone will make them stronger.

By 'OJT' I meant 'on the job training'.

 

[TerryCowger]

To further my OJT...............lol
Does anyone know how far the "air tube" goes int to the abutment when the gun is cocked?
Is it up against the BB or is it farther into the tube? It has to stay in the abutment or it would flop around in the air chamber...............I think?
Also is this what keeps it centered in the shot tube ?
Thanks Terry

 

[cobalt327]

The AT goes all the way through the abutment and stays in the end of the shot tube- even when the gun's cocked. If you remove the ST and cock the gun, you can look down into the end of the gun and see the AT still protruding up from the center of the abutment.

The abutment seal centers the AT when the shot tube is out of the gun.



Original cutaway and photos are by Daisy Talk member Gumslinger, text and "graphics" done by me.

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks for the reply and the pictures, that's how I thought it was.
So actually the air tube sets really close to the BB when cocked.
Another question if I may?
When the gun is shot am I correct in thinking the air goes mostly through the tip of the air tube or does it mostly exit the cutout on it's side and out through the barrel ?
Or both ?
I'm trying to figure what the advantage of a smaller barrel would be ? (If one could find the tubing)
Do you think there is a point where to close of a tolerance may restrict air flow?
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

When the gun is shot, ALL the air is supposed to exit through the tip of the AT. The cutout at the base of the AT is where the air enters it from the compression chamber.

All else being equal, the better the fit of the BB to the shot tube, the better the MV and accuracy will be. Too tight of a fit will likely cause jams because of the variations in BB diameters and concentricity. You will be hard pressed to find a better fit than the 499B shot tube to the Daisy Precision Ground Shot that was developed especially for the 499B.

 

[TerryCowger]

Again thank you for the reply:
I looked a little closer and I see how it works now.
About the shot tube, can you tell me what the I.D. and O.D. is, also how long is tube W/O the muzzle plug and shot tube nut ?
Thanks Terry

 

[cobalt327]

If you want the specs for the 499B ST, they are:

• ID is 0.175”
• OD is 0.298" (nom. 0.300")
• OAL is 9"

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks I guess I forgot to tell what shot tube.........................lol
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

If I'd have been paying closer attention I'd have seen the reference to the ST nut!

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks for all the information, to bad the 499B shot tube wont fit into the 95 style guns.
Anyone ever splice two 499 tubes together to make it long enough ?
Just thinking out loud.
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

It was talked about, then actually done earlier in this thread. My "#1" Daisy is so equipped. It has the shot tube extending out the front of the front sight/barrel plug because MV, but it could be trimmed and recrowned to fit normally. Or, a custom 3D printed barrel plug could be made to cover the shot tube, or a barrel shroud extension could be made to use the original type front sight/barrel plug. I left it exposed, at least for the time being- lately I haven't had any time to work on my own guns.

 

[TerryCowger]

Beautiful gun, Shane does a good job on those stocks, that type of wood is hard to find here in Fla.
I dont see how I could get the 499 shot tube into my 95 though?
Thinking about a model 25 shot tube and restricting the barrel where the air tube goes into it?
My thinking is maybe by closing this hole a little it may cut down the air loss?
On another note:
Does the model 95 have the same problem as the RR with the spring being in a bind when cocked ?
I see the RR uses a rivet to hold the bottom of the spring retainer and the model 95 has a slot in the bottom of the inner reciever tube that holds it in place. I seen the 8 degree cut on the spacer to fix the problem on the RR but not sure it's needed on the 95?
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

You might see a small MV increase by tightening the clearance of the AT OD to the shot tube ID. You'd definitely see an increase in MV by using a model 25 shot tube. And regardless of the shot tube being used, you will get an increase from Daisy Precision Ground Shot or Marksman BBs.

TBH, I'm not sure if the 95 suffers from the same spring bind as a 1938B. It would be interesting to know.

 

[TerryCowger]

OK Here's what I got and I cant figure out why I'm not splitting cans?
Daisy Precision Ground Shot BB's
Model 25 shot tube
cobalt air tube
New cobalt spring & seals
air chamber honed, all parts deburred and polished
I lubricated it with silicon oil and spray silicon, tried to keep it out of the air chambers
It cocks and shoots like a champ, I have about 100 BB's through it sense I put it back together this last time.
Do I need to shoot it some more, I've heard they pick up power as things wear in ? should I change oil type?
Any ideas ?
Terry

 

[VMC]

I have an old Red Rider with the metal trigger that I installed a Cobalt Power Spring and 7/64" air Tube in along with a Model 25 shot tube. It was at 340fps at first but after many shots it picked up to settle in about 370fps with regular Daisy silver BBs. So they do pick up power as parts settle in. Not all cans are the same. Mine splits some steel cans and passes completely through others. Shooting from about 20'. Also installed new seal and abutment from JG Air Gun for this older model. It did do in the 390sFPS outside in the hot sun once over the Crony. I wonder if seals softened up and sealed better in the hot sun. .

 

[TerryCowger]

Thanks for the reply:
Thats encouraging to hear, I guess I'll shoot some BB's today and see what happens?
I'm either missing something or my wife buys stuff in the bullet proof cans? lol
Terry

 

[cobalt327]

Experimentation like being done by Terry notwithstanding, to anyone reading this who may not know- the use of a preload spacer with my high performance spring is not recommended. It is designed to give the best performance and reliability when installed as-is.

 

[cobalt327]

I agree there's variations in thickness/strength between various cans. I used Del Monte fruit cans before getting a chrony. Shooting the bottom of the can (0.0085" thick) at point blank range with the can weighted down so it could not rebound when shot, the can will be barely split at the 280 fps range. At 375 fps range, a BB will go through it.

You can get a chrony for $20-$30 nowadays. No frills, but they work fine. I've been using mine and like it enough that I sold my CE ProChrono. More here: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=151661.0 The one I have came with a tripod that's too small to be of any use so I mounted it to a camera tripod. There's another version that clamps to the barrel but personally I didn't care for it as much.