Kyle M.
Member
I don't know why but if I pick up a gun in .45 and the same model in 9mm, I almost always shoot the .45 better.
"Putting down the man gun"
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I carry a custom BHP Light Weight. I carry it because I'm most accurate with it at speed and that's because it fits me perfectly. Since most antisocial encounters are over in just a handful of rounds I want to be on target as quickly as possible and the BHP allows me to do that better than any of my 1911s.
Certaindeaf
member
^
That's a sweet gun.. my grail gun. Wish I had one.
That's a sweet gun.. my grail gun. Wish I had one.
I keep a 45 by the bed. But, my travel gun is a 9mm. (This is actually in a holster, not just wedged next to the seat.)
Also; image was taken in North Carolina, not Illinois - I can't carry a loaded gun in Illinois. Our Governor is afraid of his citizens, or something.
Also; image was taken in North Carolina, not Illinois - I can't carry a loaded gun in Illinois. Our Governor is afraid of his citizens, or something.
Back to the OP's question;
I love shooting 9mm. Cheaper, I'm more accurate with it, I can shoot faster with it, and so on.
Being able to shoot about 2x as fast with a handgun, accurately, is NOT something trivial, either. Being able to shoot one handed far more accurately is great as well. I can't easily handle the recoil of a 45 one handed. I *can* manage a 9mm just fine.
(In / from a car, if attacked, one handed shooting might be all you CAN do; might not be time or space to get a proper grip)
I love shooting 9mm. Cheaper, I'm more accurate with it, I can shoot faster with it, and so on.
Being able to shoot about 2x as fast with a handgun, accurately, is NOT something trivial, either. Being able to shoot one handed far more accurately is great as well. I can't easily handle the recoil of a 45 one handed. I *can* manage a 9mm just fine.
(In / from a car, if attacked, one handed shooting might be all you CAN do; might not be time or space to get a proper grip)
Elm Creek Smith
Member
I get up to go to work and buckle on my duty belt holding a Smith & Wesson Model 686-6 loaded with .357 Magnum ammunition. A Smith & Wesson Model 37 goes in my off-side front pocket. All the other officers carry Glock 22's. Off duty carry is a three-inch Smith & Wesson Model 13 and the Model 37.
I'd carry a Pistol, .45 ACP, M1911A1, if our agency didn't require double-action duty weapons. On the other hand, I miss my original CZ-75 in 9X19mm and am considering a TriStar C-100 in 9X19mm.
ECS
I'd carry a Pistol, .45 ACP, M1911A1, if our agency didn't require double-action duty weapons. On the other hand, I miss my original CZ-75 in 9X19mm and am considering a TriStar C-100 in 9X19mm.
ECS
JTQ
Member
The late Paul Gomez also posted his preference for the 9MM on the THR just a short time before he passed away. Most of these trainers do, for the most part, cite a tactical reason for preferring the 9MM over other rounds.
However, the trend in law enforcement seems to be going the other way. While at one time the 9MM was extremely popular, and in some circles it no doubt still is, in the Jan/Feb 2011 issue of American Handgunner, Massad Ayoob lists the caliber choices of the nations state police officers. At least at the state police level, the 9MM was the least popular, being issued only by Indiana and New Jersey State Police. In order of popularity (by the number of states that issue a particular caliber) is the, .40S&W, .357Sig, .45ACP, .45GAP, and finally 9MM.
I often wonder if the 9MM as the choice of the trainers is more motivated by cost and wear and tear on their bodies than performance (certainly a pistol preference could also be a factor). I'm sure all of these trainers shoot extremely high round counts, and while they probably do get some "freebie" ammo from manufacturers, shooting 9MM sure must save them a bunch of money. Shooting thousands of rounds of a heavy recoiling round per week could certainly take a long term toll on anybody. If your job is teaching procedures, there is certainly an advantage to shooting a less expensive and lighter recoiling round.
silversport
Member
actually...from what I've followed lately...the 9mm seems to be making a huge resurgence in Law Enforcement circles...
Bill
Bill
It should be noticed that the opening post is based on a number of professional trainers changing from big to middle bore pistols. The one thing they have in common is that are highly skilled marksman who can do what has to be done very quickly. Those that can put a bullet where it needs to be put, and do so consistantly are well served with a middle-bore. Besides the obvious they have less recoil to contend with, and more rounds to do it with.
When you get to the bottom line, it is still bullet placement that counts.
When you get to the bottom line, it is still bullet placement that counts.
Certaindeaf
member
Didn't we hear that the FBI is going to go back to the 9x19? don't know if it's true or not
smalls
Member
I carry a 9mm 1911.
I have carried .38 special, .357 magnum, 9mm and .45 acp both on and off duty. I have never felt like I was inadequately armed with any of those calibers.
It's not the caliber, with modern expanding ammunition anything .38 special or bigger is adequate for defensive use.
It makes no difference if it's a revolver or semi auto. Both will do the job.
It's the man, not the tool.
It's not the caliber, with modern expanding ammunition anything .38 special or bigger is adequate for defensive use.
It makes no difference if it's a revolver or semi auto. Both will do the job.
It's the man, not the tool.
Sapper771
Member
I did the same thing a few years ago. I was carrying a 1911. Then I switched to a G21/G30. Then I went to a Glock 17.
I had many reasons behind my switch. First , I was tired of messing around with the 1911s (rusting, high maintenance, gunsmithing, cost of parts, reliability, etc). I had experience with Glocks and carried one on Duty. I switched to the Glock 21/30 because it got me into Glock, but allowed me to keep the 45acp. My qualification scores at work got better after the switch.
After a while, I began looking at stopping power. The majority of professionals say that placement is key. Most of our respected Members on THR also agree with the statement. I researched several 9mm loads and their street performance.
A friend of mine decided to jump on board with me and help evaluate the caliber switch. We debated, argued, brainstormed, and pro/conned it to death. When were finished, we came up with a summary: The 9mm will allow us to train twice as much on the same dime. Training twice as much will bring more proficiency. More proficiency will bring more accuracy(shot placement).
I purchased an OD Green frame Glock 17, two holsters, and three spare mags. Reloaded a couple thousand rounds of various weight FMJ, Plated, and HP bullets. The evaluation went through without a hitch. So I officially started carrying the G17. I also purchased a G19 and a G26 a few months later.
What I had now was a system. When concealment was not an issue, I had the G17. When concealment was an issue, I had the G19 and G26. Most of the parts were interchangeable. G17/18 mags could be used in all 3 pistols. All the holsters I have can accept all three.
I have nothing negative to report other than dealing with the brass to the face issue (now fixed without help from Glock) . Due to the weather (hot and humid) I carry the G19 more than the G17. The G26 gets carried a few times and is great in an IWB. I may just stick with the G19 year around because it is such a great all around pistol.
I am not sure about Haley and Costa. One time you see them with a 1911, then next with a M&P. I have heard them say that they like Glocks, but prefer them with a grip reduction.
I had many reasons behind my switch. First , I was tired of messing around with the 1911s (rusting, high maintenance, gunsmithing, cost of parts, reliability, etc). I had experience with Glocks and carried one on Duty. I switched to the Glock 21/30 because it got me into Glock, but allowed me to keep the 45acp. My qualification scores at work got better after the switch.
After a while, I began looking at stopping power. The majority of professionals say that placement is key. Most of our respected Members on THR also agree with the statement. I researched several 9mm loads and their street performance.
A friend of mine decided to jump on board with me and help evaluate the caliber switch. We debated, argued, brainstormed, and pro/conned it to death. When were finished, we came up with a summary: The 9mm will allow us to train twice as much on the same dime. Training twice as much will bring more proficiency. More proficiency will bring more accuracy(shot placement).
I purchased an OD Green frame Glock 17, two holsters, and three spare mags. Reloaded a couple thousand rounds of various weight FMJ, Plated, and HP bullets. The evaluation went through without a hitch. So I officially started carrying the G17. I also purchased a G19 and a G26 a few months later.
What I had now was a system. When concealment was not an issue, I had the G17. When concealment was an issue, I had the G19 and G26. Most of the parts were interchangeable. G17/18 mags could be used in all 3 pistols. All the holsters I have can accept all three.
I have nothing negative to report other than dealing with the brass to the face issue (now fixed without help from Glock) . Due to the weather (hot and humid) I carry the G19 more than the G17. The G26 gets carried a few times and is great in an IWB. I may just stick with the G19 year around because it is such a great all around pistol.
I am not sure about Haley and Costa. One time you see them with a 1911, then next with a M&P. I have heard them say that they like Glocks, but prefer them with a grip reduction.
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tomrkba
Member
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- 2,370
I don't really see "shooting thousands of rounds" as advocacy for the 9x19mm cartridge. Most trainers are very logical in their approach and this does not seem to be sufficient justification for the change. Every instructor I have ever trained with was far more concerned about overall effectiveness and for many years technology did not provide the advantages offered by 45 ACP and other larger calibers.
I know that most police officers are not "gun people" and do not take their firearms training very seriously. Ed McGivern lamented about this very topic in his 1930's book Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. Most officers consider qualifications to be sufficient practice (my neighbors did and they were pathetic shooters). The lighter recoil of the 9x19mm round may offer some advantages for those folks.
I know that most police officers are not "gun people" and do not take their firearms training very seriously. Ed McGivern lamented about this very topic in his 1930's book Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting. Most officers consider qualifications to be sufficient practice (my neighbors did and they were pathetic shooters). The lighter recoil of the 9x19mm round may offer some advantages for those folks.
Ramone
Member
After one of her first trips to the range with me, my ex (five foot nuthin, 100 with her boots on) annouced that she was going to get a .45- which flabbergasted her ex NYPD .38 wheelgun Dad.Don't worry y'all. You menfolk can put down your .45's for a while. Let the women happily pick up the slack!
"that's a helluva lotta gun!"
"Dad, I am SMALL. Anything I shoot has to stay shot- I can't start wrestling with 'em!"
A few nights later we worked out a scale that matched her desire for a .45 to my 6' 6" 280 lbs CO buddies .380 EDC.
On that scale, I get a 9mm.
We ever after refered to .45ACP as the girly gun.
DC Plumber
Member
Well, to each, his own.
I can see if a guy doesn't reload, an autoloading 9mm makes a lot of sense vs. a 45acp, if you can get the platform you like, which is likely.
For self defense, I'd carry the most powerful gun that I can shoot accurately. I switch from my LCP to my 454 Alaskan depending on my mood and where I am. If I were a police officer, I'm sure I'd have different opinions.
It sure would be nice if 45 ammo got cheaper because everyone was shooting 9mm instead of 45acp.
I can see if a guy doesn't reload, an autoloading 9mm makes a lot of sense vs. a 45acp, if you can get the platform you like, which is likely.
For self defense, I'd carry the most powerful gun that I can shoot accurately. I switch from my LCP to my 454 Alaskan depending on my mood and where I am. If I were a police officer, I'm sure I'd have different opinions.
It sure would be nice if 45 ammo got cheaper because everyone was shooting 9mm instead of 45acp.
Deaf Smith
Member
fastest45ever
Member
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2012
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- 142
Originally I went to .45 since I liked having big bullets when loading on a Dillon 550. Better and easier for big fingers to place, and more consistent.
I also found that once settled on a load, my .45's were always more accurate then my 9MM's. I also had problems finding a combination that shot anywhere near as well as my custom 1911's. These included a couple Browning Hi-Powers, FN's, that I wish I still had, a Sig P226, and those are the ones I remember.
In defense of the 9's, I didn't put as much time into customizing the 9's, in particular because parts and customsmiths weren't as easy to find for other guns as for the 1911. This was pre-Glock, by the way.
As the laws in my state tighten, and it becomes impossible to get a CCW permit, concealment trumps power. Also I stopped reloading.
The combination has resulted in wanting to have as many calibers as possible to take advantage of the economy fluctuations. In other words when .45 is too expensive, I don't buy it. Likewise when a great deal comes up on 9MM I jump on it.
I consider one of the advantages of 9MM is more truncated cone ammo available for less, and in lighter bullet weights that may not over-penetrate.
The 9MM I do have, a Kahr, is very accurate and I am also fairly happy with the velocity I get out of it.
Along with .357/.38 revolvers, I find I can generally find a good to great deal on ammunition that I would be comfortable carrying at one time or another.
This day and age, if you don't have time to reload, having as many calibers as possible gives you a variety of possible ammo deals to pick from.
With all the variety in small .45 ACP guns, I'm less inclined to buy another 9, and more likely to go with a .45. Next on my list is a Kahr PM 45, or the slightly larger version.
If I was worried about recoil, and I could find it for the right price, I'd probably be looking at .45 ACP in a light for caliber truncated cone, say 185-200 grains, at higher velocity.
If the rationale is shot placement is king, then why not use the absolute most accurate combination you can come up with? There has been an awful lot of research done on .45 ACP/1911 target loads. If you need to reduce recoil, and want the fastest split times with pin point accuracy that might be easier to achieve with a 1911 then any other gun, just due to the number of people that shoot 1911's in comp, the number of trick parts,
and the ammo research done for it. I would guess even a 1911 target wadcutter, target load, with proper shot placement, would be very effective.
I also found that once settled on a load, my .45's were always more accurate then my 9MM's. I also had problems finding a combination that shot anywhere near as well as my custom 1911's. These included a couple Browning Hi-Powers, FN's, that I wish I still had, a Sig P226, and those are the ones I remember.
In defense of the 9's, I didn't put as much time into customizing the 9's, in particular because parts and customsmiths weren't as easy to find for other guns as for the 1911. This was pre-Glock, by the way.
As the laws in my state tighten, and it becomes impossible to get a CCW permit, concealment trumps power. Also I stopped reloading.
The combination has resulted in wanting to have as many calibers as possible to take advantage of the economy fluctuations. In other words when .45 is too expensive, I don't buy it. Likewise when a great deal comes up on 9MM I jump on it.
I consider one of the advantages of 9MM is more truncated cone ammo available for less, and in lighter bullet weights that may not over-penetrate.
The 9MM I do have, a Kahr, is very accurate and I am also fairly happy with the velocity I get out of it.
Along with .357/.38 revolvers, I find I can generally find a good to great deal on ammunition that I would be comfortable carrying at one time or another.
This day and age, if you don't have time to reload, having as many calibers as possible gives you a variety of possible ammo deals to pick from.
With all the variety in small .45 ACP guns, I'm less inclined to buy another 9, and more likely to go with a .45. Next on my list is a Kahr PM 45, or the slightly larger version.
If I was worried about recoil, and I could find it for the right price, I'd probably be looking at .45 ACP in a light for caliber truncated cone, say 185-200 grains, at higher velocity.
If the rationale is shot placement is king, then why not use the absolute most accurate combination you can come up with? There has been an awful lot of research done on .45 ACP/1911 target loads. If you need to reduce recoil, and want the fastest split times with pin point accuracy that might be easier to achieve with a 1911 then any other gun, just due to the number of people that shoot 1911's in comp, the number of trick parts,
and the ammo research done for it. I would guess even a 1911 target wadcutter, target load, with proper shot placement, would be very effective.
TAKtical
Member
I can put 20 rounds of 9mm on a small silhouette at 25 yards with my glock 17 faster than 8 rounds from my 1911's. Ive trained more with 9mm, im more accurate with 9mm and Im much faster with it. Thats why I usually carry it.
76shuvlinoff
Member
Got an all steel .45 on the night stand, a .38 in the nightstand, a tupperware .40 in the truck and usually a .380 in my pocket.
Let me think about it.... yep still feel like a man so I'm good, carry on.
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Let me think about it.... yep still feel like a man so I'm good, carry on.
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scaatylobo
Member
65 in a few days
I fully understand and appreciate a man smart enough to know [ and deal with ] his limitations.
I am still carrying my ex duty Glock 23,and its getting harder to shoot more than a few mag's without pain [ LOD stuff ].
I find the S&W .40 is harder on the hand than the 9 MM or the .45 ACP.
I own a 'few' 9 MM's and the G-19 is very close to taking the place of the G-23.
I am happy to see many get wiser as they age,I see more than a few silly comments here and I attribute them to the younger and SO much tougher crowd.
They too shall age [ if lucky ] and will see how wise we were.
I fully understand and appreciate a man smart enough to know [ and deal with ] his limitations.
I am still carrying my ex duty Glock 23,and its getting harder to shoot more than a few mag's without pain [ LOD stuff ].
I find the S&W .40 is harder on the hand than the 9 MM or the .45 ACP.
I own a 'few' 9 MM's and the G-19 is very close to taking the place of the G-23.
I am happy to see many get wiser as they age,I see more than a few silly comments here and I attribute them to the younger and SO much tougher crowd.
They too shall age [ if lucky ] and will see how wise we were
.Lawdawg45
Member
In an issue of SWAT Magazine a few months ago, Patrick Rogers wrote an article titled, "Putting down the Man Gun," which detailed his decision to start carrying primarily a 9mm pistol (S&W M&P-9) over his once-favored .45 ACP (1911).
Similarly, a recent interview with Travis Haley had him stating that his primary carry gun was in 9mm also. (Believe he may favor Glocks.)
Comes now Chris Costa, who also admits packing a nine most of the time (also the Glock 19) ...
Seasoned trainers all, they all seem to believe that being able to shoot lots of rounds downrange faster AND more accurately is important, though Rogers discussed other reasons for going to the 9mm.
For those of us gettin' on in years, practicing with a 9mm can be delightful (especially if one's strong arm is riddled with arthritis in the wrist and fingers). On a recent range visit, I re-discovered that my venerable West German SIG P-226 is the softest-shooter of all my nines, as well as the most accurate pistol I own (well, I have one Series 70 Colt's Gov't Model that would probably edge it).
Now I note that my usual off-duty carry .45, a LW Commander XSE, is really about the same size as my P-226 (albeit not nearly as wide) and almost identical in size to my duty M&P-9 ... all have barrels about 4.25 - 4.40 inches but laid one on top of the other, they all print about the same size, except the Colt is obviously narrower, which does make it easier to pack.
With the stellar 18-round Mec-Gar mags for the SIG (and then how 'bout the 20-rounder for a spare?), the factory 17-rounders for the S&W, I can sure pack a lot more firepower by going to a nine, which for me, conceals almost as well, even OWB in a Kramer Belt Scabbard (my favorite pancakes) or a Galco Concealable. Yeah, for IWB, the SIG and the Smith aren't quite as nice, but they still ride remarkably comfortably in Milt Sparks VM-IIs.
So, I am evaluating. I have full confidence in my 9mm loads (Gold Dot 124 grain +Ps), and frankly, my recent shooting sessions have me shooting much more accurately, much faster, with my 9s.
Anyone else besides this 1911 dinosaur contemplating giving up The Man Gun? (But only for carry -- the 1911 is still The King -- just as Elvis, though dead, is.)
I understand their logic in the article, especially for a LEO who could potentially encounter multiple armed suspects, but I wonder how many of these people were actually carrying a 1911 off duty? I would guess the greater majority carried a 5 shot J frame, so the 9mm would actually be a step up (in capacity). As always, shot placement is crucial no matter the caliber.
LD
I sold off all of my guns when I thought I was going to have to move back to NY. I was a little upset when the job fell through and I ended up staying here in NC. The good news was that I had some money to get a new pistol as I still had my NC CHP. I had up to $2500 to spend, but wanted to stay well below that. I could have bought any gun I can find in my town. I looked at a Knighthawk customs GRP, and Springer TRP and a host of others in varying calibers. I bought Glock 19, and have no regrets.
So far, the debate has between the "man gun", a .45 ACP 1911, and the sensible alternative, a striker-fired 9 mm. How about the other two combinations, a striker-fired .45 or a 9 mm 1911, the latter somewhat smaller than a full sized 1911 because it was designed around the smaller cartridge?
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