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"Putting down the man gun"

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by Old Dog, Sep 13, 2012.

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  1. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    You know, growing up around the guns I did, I view "Man Gun" as something quite other than a 1911.

    357 Magnum? Man gun.
    38 Special? Lady gun.

    Kind of how the line was drawn where I was raised. :)
     
  2. Pfletch83

    Pfletch83 member

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    My vote goes for this one with the Federal 2-1/2 inch '000' buckshot loads

    Structural damage is what counts the most in stopping a threat with a handgun,and 4 projectiles beat one (also most defensive uses of a handgun are at close range so distance isn't so much of a problem)

    Gov2.jpg
     
  3. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    ^
    Why not just shoot once with a good 9mm? It'll go where you aim it and break bones/penetrate more than four 70 grain balls.
     
  4. KansasSasquatch

    KansasSasquatch Member

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    In self defense I wouldn't trust one round of anything short of 12gauge buckshot at close range.

    As far as putting down "the man's gun," I guess I'm not old enough to put down my .45s yet. I do have some arthritis in my hands though. But since I "roll my own" I can make .45 ammo that kicks about like factory 9mm ammo for target practice. And for HD/SD full power loads don't bother me enough to trade in for a 9mm. I do want a BHP or or 92FS for a range toy and maybe an LC9 for pocket carry.
     
  5. Dave T

    Dave T Member

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    I've been going through a similar quest for the past few months. I have always shot the 45 ACP 1911 guns better than anything else, particularly when pushed to go fast when up close. The recoil doesn't bother my arthritis but reaching the thumb safety and getting the grip safety depressed every time has become a problem. I have a few G19s laying around and they will do in a pinch but I find myself going back to the revolver, where I started 40+ years ago.

    Not sure I understand the physiology behind it but on the range I seem to do better with the long DA stroke of the revolver than with the stacking but lighter trigger stroke of the Glock. And, despite having a very nice collection of N-frame S&Ws, I find I shoot the newer L-frame better than the the big N's or even the smaller K-frames.

    Not done thinking about this but that seems to be where age (parts failure) and experience is directing me. YMMV!

    Dave
     
  6. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    Do you hide in the closet where that's kept?
     
  7. Pfletch83

    Pfletch83 member

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    @Certaindeaf

    You do know that those four 70 grain pellets equal out to a total weight of 280 grains worth of projectile right?

    and all four will be clustered at the same POA.
     
  8. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf member

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    ^
    yea, that's real special.
     
  9. Pfletch83

    Pfletch83 member

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    @Certaindeaf

    I would say that the above weapon and load is the closest we can expect to get for a solid one shot threat stopper in a handgun.
     
  10. k_dawg

    k_dawg Member

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    I choose the handgun first, caliber second.
     
  11. Teachu2

    Teachu2 Member

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    Carried 1911s for over three decades. Live in CA, so 10 rounds is the practical limit, which diminishes the 9mm capacity advantage. The Glock 30 ended up being my choice - as many rounds of the largest practical caliber, in a soft-shooting, very accurate and dependable package.

    If I lived in hi-cap land, I'd probably go with a G19. I thoroughly enjoy range time with my G34, so the 19 would be an obvious choice. Since I only get 10 rounds, and I shoot the 30 very well, that's what I carry.
     
  12. Taurus 617 CCW

    Taurus 617 CCW Member

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    I started out CCW carrying a government size 1911 in .45 ACP. Through the years I have gradually moved to midsize cartridges mainly due to size and weight of the gun I carry all day long. I now carry a Glock 19 and Ruger LCP. They are a great combination. I would carry a Springfield EMP 9mm if I could afford one.
     
  13. 45_auto

    45_auto Member

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    So why don't you use birdshot?

    A couple of hundred projectiles obviously beat 4 using your logic.
     
  14. Pfletch83

    Pfletch83 member

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    @45 Auto

    Because birdshot causes shallow wounds.

    Buckshot has been a defensive load for ages....because it works,and works well.

    It beats lugging a shotgun around everywhere I go,and I still have the option of using standard .45's in three different flavors. (Long colt,ACP,and GAP)

    :p
     
  15. KansasSasquatch

    KansasSasquatch Member

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    Certaindeaf, my point is that in a self defense situation you probably shouldn't stop with 1 round of .410 buckshot, 9mm, or .45acp. You shoot until the threat stops or until you're forced to take other action. A single round of 12gauge 000 has a good chance of incapcitating an attacker while those others dont. And the answer to your satiracle question is no. The shotgun I keep loaded is nowhere near my closet and when I'm not near the shotgun my XD45 is with me.
     
  16. Pfletch83

    Pfletch83 member

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    @KansasSasquatch

    I wouldn't stop at one round,what I am saying is, of the three which would cause more damage and thus be more likely to bring a threat to a stop faster ?

    My money is on the .410 revolver loaded with buckshot.
     
  17. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    You have to treat each pellet independently for damage. If they all cause shallow damage then they're not going to add up to the effectiveness of a round that penetrates to depth without over penetrating.

    I'm not sure what a .410 pellet from Judge provides ballistically on target, but the tests at the Box O' Truth were discouraging. http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41_2.htm Reads a lot like shooting a BG 3-5 times with a little .25.
     
  18. Pfletch83

    Pfletch83 member

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  19. KansasSasquatch

    KansasSasquatch Member

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    Pfletch, I understood what you were saying, although I do not agree. I was responding to Certaindeaf in reference to firing one shot.

    I do not agree with the .410 being that much better. Average .410 000 is moving around 850fps. With the relatively low velocity and light weight of each individual pellet, it is not likely to penetrate very deep and it's not going to expand very well, in theory any ways. But enough hits on a Bad Guy and I think it would do okay.
     
  20. Lawdawg45

    Lawdawg45 Member

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    To each his own, but really do your research before staking your life on the .410. The new gimmick ammo with the "defensive disk" tumbles and yaws past the 3 or 4 foot mark, and the shot pattern for the bird shot is terrible. Even worse out of the Judge or Governor.:uhoh:

    LD
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  21. Pfletch83

    Pfletch83 member

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    I have been doing research with the .410 for well over a year now (In long gun and I have began working with the handgun)

    That is how I have seen it's strengths and it's weaknesses.

    And all things being equal,it's why I'm glad I made the choice,I'm not saying that others have to make the same choice.

    But if a person is looking for a one shot fight stopper at normal defensive use ranges in a handgun then a 410 revolver loaded with '000' buck is a very good bet.


    Also I wouldn't risk using the PDX-1 410 in a handgun (recoil is way too stout and down range performance is not what I would write home about)

    Which is why I've stayed with the '000' buck load from federal.

    Better recoil control and firepower at close range.


    Also here is a vid some might want to look at....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_iJ34EHuQs
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
  22. Lawdawg45

    Lawdawg45 Member

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    Impressive video! Why so much better shot pattern with the Governor vs the Judge, same barrel length right?

    LD
     
  23. Pfletch83

    Pfletch83 member

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    Also it should be noted that the target in the pic that I posted was made by tracing out an old blank CD.
     
  24. CountryUgly

    CountryUgly Member

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    I comprimised! I now carry a G20 :) . No one will ever question it's Manliness being a 10mm and being able to easily carry 31 rounds keeps me in the fight against the guy who's carrying an M&P or G19. The G20 Also soaks up the recoil for even the hottest rounds and makes accurate follow up shots very managable. So did I win?
     
  25. Pfletch83

    Pfletch83 member

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    Depending on which model Judge you are talking about and the type of loads used.

    If you are talking 3-inch chambered 3-inch barrel model using off the shelf winchester buckshot (Unplated plain lead 3-inch or 2-1/2 inch shell) or the newer stuff (Federal 3-inch/2-1/2 inch plated '000')

    As far as shorter barrel vs longer barrel,I'm thinking is has to do with rifling type of the barrel,how the pellets engage the rifling as well as the type of powder used in the shells (and I believe the Federal stuff is using the flight control wad if memory serves)
     
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