Pyrodex Corrosive?

[arcticap]

Every powder has its advantages and disadvantages.
Pyrodex P is more potent than black powder but I think that it is harder to clean and requires more elbow grease.
I generally don't use water to clean Pyrodex but opt to use solvents instead.
Solvents tend to evaporate and clean better without activating the corrosive effects to the extent that water does.
And I apply Bore Butter after cleaning which helps dissolve any hidden residue left in the nooks & crannies, to be swabbed out 1-3 days afterward so that fresh lube can be reapplied.
The patches will then usually reveal some minor carbon traces and I may even repeat the last step over again.

I think that Pyrodex P is more potent than even Swiss on the basis of weight.
That's because Pyrodex P weighs 25% less than Goex, yet Swiss is 10% denser than Goex which means the weight difference for Swiss may represent 35% less volume.
IMO it requires less weight of Pyrodex P to equal the velocity of any given weight of Swiss.

And because less Pyrodex powder weight is needed relative to the weight of Goex, IMO Pyrodex P will produce less residue overall.
By cleaner I mean that it very well may leave less carbon, creosote and other sticky residues that are specific to Goex.
But that lesser amount of Pyrodex residue does harden soon after shooting, is probably more corrosive in conjunction with moisture, and can be considerably more stubborn to effectively remove.

Those are some of the advantages and disadvantages of Pyrodex P from my perspective.
Pyrodex RS doesn't burn as clean as P, isn't as potent, and may present more ignition problems in some flash channels.
Pryodex P is the powder that I use the most for rifle shooting.

I would probably be remiss if I didn't add that I think that Pyrodex is safer than BP.
Not so much for the experienced shooter, but for young kids and newbies loading rifles.
I think that it's less likely to spark a cook-off.
When my kid was young I would let him load his rifle with Pyrodex which I wouldn't consider letting him do on his own if using real back powder.
My conscience simply wouldn't allow it.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I remember when Dan Pawlik came out with Pyrodex. He stated that it would make the same smoke and smell as real Black Powder and be more economical because you use less by volume. I have never used a chronograph so don't know what the velocity changes are compared to any other powder. I just know it goes boom when I pull the trigger and cleanup is about the same as any other black powder or substitute. There are places where that's all you can get locally as far as muzzleloaders are concerned and some of us don't want to get beat up for haz mat shipping charges. I personally don't care what gets poured down the end of the barrel ( on my caplocks) as long as it goes boom and I can expect reasonable accuracy. Since I clean within hours of shooting there is no corrosion issues to deal with.

 

[Zygodactyl]

Pyrodex is hard on brass. The manufacturer recommends soaking the cases in a vinegar and water solution to nuetralize the corrosive residue.

 

[lagerratrobe]

I like Pyrodex and have shot it in both pellet form and as loose powder in my cap and ball pistols. I have had a handful of ignition failures when using pellets, all of which were resolved by recapping. Loose powder has never failed to ignite, even the stuff I tote around in my shooting bag "for emergencies" which sits around for extended periods of time. I've also reloaded 45 Colt brass with the "P" powder and found it to be easy to work with. Wet tumbling with stainless steel pins and some Lemi Shine leaves my brass shiny and clean.

I clean my guns the same day after shooting Pyrodex and I have no rust or pitting in my bores. It's a gross mess to clean up, in comparison to using smokeless, but my father in law and I have a giggle whenever we shoot it.

I'm a fan and intend to keep using it.

 

[alsaqr]

In 2000 i bought a cheap CVA Stag Horn rifle. The bore is pristine after firing 3,500-4,000 rounds using Pyrodex. Clean the rifle and there will be no problem.

BTW: All the black powder substitutes including BH 209 contain potassium perchlorate. Adding potassium perchlorate is a cheap easy way of boosting puissance.

 

[hawg]

I have used a lot of Pyrodex over the years. I live in the humid south where you would think rust and corrosion would get the upper hand but I've never had problem with Pyrodex. I used to be one of those that cleaned right after shooting but one day we had a family emergency while I was shooting and didn't have time to clean. I thought about it nine days later and said oh crap but the gun cleaned up without any rust or corrosion. Now I don't worry about it and sometimes go two or three days before cleaning. My 63 Sharps is the only thing that didn't give instant ignition. It never failed to ignite but it was like a poorly timed flintlock. A Sharps has a long ignition channel with two turns and Pyrodex just didn't work well. I got Swiss for the Sharps and to my surprise Pyrodex felt just as strong as Swiss volume to volume. As for longevity, I have a CVA Hawken that was given to me and had sat loaded with Pyrodex for at least nine years. I capped it and it fired with the authority you'd expect a fresh charge to have. I've used containers of Pyrodex that had been open for several years that still worked just fine. Pyrodex isn't any harder to clean than real black either. Most of the people that rant about it are just repeating internet myths.

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

Swiss is my go-to but it's clear that Pyrodex is the sub some shooters love to hate. Their aversion to it verges on the cultic.

I've used a heck ton of that stuff over about 30 years and never had a problem - neither with ignition nor cleanup. I shoot Pietta revolvers. In those, Pyrodex P has worked out real well.

 

[1KPerDay]

i've used at least 100 pounds of Pyrodex.

Do you have a cannon or something?

That’s 10,000 rifle shots at 70 grains per shot…

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Don't know where anyone has ever come up with Pyrodex is more corrosive than all other muzzle-loading powders. (Brought this topic over from another thread.) I've been using Pyrodex for over 25 years and haven't ever had any problems with it, rust wise. But I do clean my guns thoroughly and within 8 hours after shooting them. I think all muzzle-loading powders have a corrosive issue if one thinks they can leave a dirty gun or a loaded one laying around for long periods of time. How many of you corrosive people bring one in from the cold and allow the barrel to sweat from condensation without bothering to clean it?

Dude you can try and nay say all you want but it's a scientific fact. Pyrodex has potassium perchlorate and leaves a corrosive salt residue similar to the old chlorate primers.

Sure if you just clean immediately you'll be fine but when I read post like yours I have to wonder if people don't realize that some of us actually USE guns out in inclement conditions. Three day CAS shooting matches or hunting trips in the rain while camping and not having that ideal warm and cozy house to come in to and clean and dry everything off. Many, many years ago when I was much, much younger I had a cap and ball revolver be covered in a white salty residue from Pyrodex by the next day from a late night hunt. It was at that point I realized Hodgdon was telling us a lie about Pyrodex being less corrosive than holy black.

 

[alsaqr]

That’s 10,000 rifle shots at 70 grains per shot…

Yep, that's about right. For years i fired about 1,000 muzzleloader rounds yearly: Now i'm down to 500-750 rounds yearly. Still have about 25 pounds of Pyrodex on hand.

Dude you can try and nay say all you want but it's a scientific fact. Pyrodex has potassium perchlorate and leaves a corrosive salt residue similar to the old chlorate primers

All the black powder substitutes contain potassium perchlorate. Pyrodex is the only substitute whose residue is seriously corrosive. It's the sulfur.

ttps://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/triple-seven-sds-sheet-2017.pdf

Black_MZ.pdf (alliantpowder.com)

2018-pyrodex-sds-new.pdf (hodgdon.com)

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

I don't need a "warm and cozy house" to clean up a gun. Nobody does, not really. And yes, "some of us actually USE guns out in inclement conditions." No one has a monopoly on that.

If a guy omits to clean his gun at the end of a day, under any conditions or weathers - he's slackin. If the piece looks like hell the next morning don't blame the powder, ffs.

 

[Captain*kirk]

I've used a lot of Pyrodex over the years, both P and RS. It cleans up well in warm water with a spritz of dish soap. The key is to thoroughly dry your bore after cleaning and oil it. And check it again after a few days.
Yeah, we've all heard the horror stories about "micro-pitting" and ruined bores, but I've seen more than a few of those with black powder and even on smokeless guns being used in inclement weather. The key is to clean the darn thing when you're finished shooting. It's your responsibility. One of my BP rifles has never had anything but Pyrodex fired out of it and it looks and shoots like new, after 37 years.
One thing I don't hear bandied about much these days is that Pyrodex is non-progressive fouling...which means I can shoot all afternoon at the range without having to clean the bore every 5 shots or so because the fouling gets so thick a patched ball won't easily seat any more. I still swab it every dozen shots or so but it's no longer a requirement as with real BP. Yes, it's harder to ignite. But as was mentioned that's a safety consideration. Plus, BATF classifies Pyrodex as a propellant rather than an explosive. This means it can ship and be stored following smokeless propellant rules. For years the only way I could get real BP here was to order on line. Nobody local carried it. I could pick up a pound of Pyro at the LGS and not pay for shipping OR hazmat. Hence the reason I used so much of it. Also, WRT flintlocks...while I've not tried it, a number of encouraging reports are coming in that if you use BP in the pan and drop 10gr of real BP down the barrel first as a "kicker charge" and top with Pyro (less the 10gr charge) they work well, and may save you 70-90gr of real BP per shot. In these days of scarcity of the real thing, that can mean a lot more shooting.
Yes, it has it's down sides, but for many it's a viable alternative. The rhetoric of how it will ruin your gun forever gets a little old after a while.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

All the black powder substitutes contain potassium perchlorate. Pyrodex is the only substitute whose residue is seriously corrosive. It's the sulfur.

I don't buy that and I've read some in depth info from actual chemist on the subject. I agree Pyrodex is the worse but ALL of the subs are more corrosive than real black powder and it is the potassium perchlorate that causes it. That's the one main thing they have that real black does not and it's no secret that those salts are corrosive to steel. Black powder has sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate but does not have potassium perchlorate and anyone with any experience with them knows how chlorate effects steel. That was what was in the old corrosive primers, it's used in agriculture herbicides etc and anyone that works around that knows how corrosive it is if you don't get equipment rinsed well. Many people blame the pitting and poor condition of old black powder era firearms on the powder but it was the corrosive primers more than anything.

 

[alsaqr]

I agree Pyrodex is the worse but ALL of the subs are more corrosive than real black powder and it is the potassium perchlorate that causes it

i don't care that you "don't buy it".

It ain't the potassium perchlorate. If it were potassium perchlorate, the residue of Triple Seven, APP, Black MZ and BH 209 would be as corrosive as Pyrodex: They are not.

The agent of corrosion in black powder and Pyrodex is the same, it's the sulfur.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

i don't care that you "don't buy it".

It ain't the potassium perchlorate. If it were potassium perchlorate, the residue of Triple Seven, APP, Black MZ and BH 209 would be as corrosive as Pyrodex: They are not.

The agent of corrosion in black powder and Pyrodex is the same, it's the sulfur.

And if it was just the sulfur real black would be as corrosive and it's not even close. It's the addition of the chlorates is what throws fuel on the fire. Shooting Pyrodex with potassium perchlorate you put things back in the same boat as shooting black powder using the old fashioned corrosive primers.

Black powder residue in itself are oxides that are hydroscopic that with time become hydroxide when mixed with moisture and that is corrosive. That's why you have more time (much more) with black powder residue and also why just keeping dry or a quick saturation of a water wicking oil such as ballistol easily protects from corrosion by keeping water out of the fouling.

By your way of thinking if the chlorates have no part in Pyrodex corrosion then why did the old corrosive primers cause the corrosion to begin with when used with smokeless powder? All of those subs you mentioned will cause corrosion when left uncared for extended times. The problem with Pyrodex is it has all of the bad stuff going against it. If they tried to create a corrosive powder they couldn't have done a better job.

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

There seems to be a consensus here that Pyro isn't anyone's very favorite number one first choice of powder. I think it's good stuff but there's better.

 

[hawg]

There seems to be a consensus here that Pyro isn't anyone's very favorite number one first choice of powder. I think it's good stuff but there's better.

I do prefer real black, especially Swiss but I'll take Pyrodex before any of the other subs.

 

[alsaqr]

Black powder is not my favorite, stuff is cruddy nearly beyond belief. Sometimes i get the stuff cheap and use it for blasting stumps and ponds.

And if it was just the sulfur real black would be as corrosive and it's not even close.

Says you. Someone who has never used black powder might believe that statement, i don't. Contrary to claims by dyed in the wool Pyrodex haters, the residue of black powder is about as corrosive as that of Pyrodex. Clean the gun and there won't be any problem.

Got into muzzleloaders in the 60s. Owned a truckload of original muzzleloaders, more than 75 percent of the bores were ruined: Before the Civil War Centennial, they were cheap.

Beginning in about 2000, every year before deer season, i would receive a dozen or so rusty cruddy muzzleloaders. The only difference between a bore ruined by black powder and bore ruined by Pyrodex was the greater accumulation of crud in the bore of the black powder gun. Then i gave it up after some were unhappy with my inability to restore their rifles to pristine condition. In my junk are about 40 ruined black guns and barrels.

Riddle me this: If Pyrodex is so awfully corrosive due to the presence of potassium perchlorate; why are the residues of all the other BP substitutes, which also contain potassium perchlorate, not seriously corrosive.

BTW: On 20 November i killed a doe using my TC Encore rifle loaded with 120 grains of Black MZ powder. i cleaned the rifle after killing another deer on 4 December. Yep, my bad. But the bore cleaned up perfectly; little residue, no rust, no pits, no nothing.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Black powder is not my favorite, stuff is cruddy nearly beyond belief. Sometimes i get the stuff cheap and use it for blasting stumps and ponds.

Riddle me this: If Pyrodex is so awfully corrosive due to the presence of potassium perchlorate; why are the residues of all the other BP substitutes, which also contain potassium perchlorate, not seriously corrosive.

You must be buying the junkiest bp you can find and you just still don't get it about Pyrodex. What makes it so awful is it has ALL of the bad stuff in black powder and ALL of the bad stuff that is in the substitutes. The other substitutes and black powder itself has some of it but not ALL of it. This is not an opinion, it's scientific FACT

If you think it's just the sulfur you have no understanding of the chemistry behind any of it and the residues that are left behind from not just the sulfur but also the potassium nitrate. It all leaves bad oxide residue that is hygroscopic. Pyrodex not only has that same stuff but the addition of the chlorate residue left behind. You are completely ignoring the absolute fact about corrosive primers that everyone talks about that used the same thing. Are you denying that corrosive primers don't/did exist? Are you denying they contained sodium perchlorates? When this stuff is burned the residue you have left behind is sodium chlorate. You essentially now have common table salt mixed in the fouling. I have never had that analyzed but can only assume that is the white residue you have the next day after shooting pyrodex and triple 7 but don't see it after shooting bp for three or four days in multi day CAS events and shooting hundreds of rounds of bp in my guns.

So think of it this way, with Pyrodex it's like shooting with real black powder and then throw finely ground up table salt on your gun. It's literally like throwing fuel on the fire when it comes to corrosion caused from bp residue.

 

[alsaqr]

You are completely ignoring the absolute fact about corrosive primers that everyone talks about that used the same thing. Are you denying that corrosive primers don't/did exist?

Yep, corrosive primers were very bad, they are also long gone. Answer my question:

Why are all the other black powder substitutes, which also contain potassium perchlorate, not seriously corrosive.

 

[doubleh]

The cost of obtaining "real" blackpowder here caused me to switch to pyrodex many years ago. I always clean my guns immediately upon returning home using the exact same procedure that I used before switching to pyrodex. I haven't noticed anymore difficulty in getting them clean after the switch than before and none have ever had a bit of rust. I have no problem with igniting pyrodex either.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

Yep, corrosive primers were very bad, they are also long gone. Answer my question:

Why are all the other black powder substitutes, which also contain potassium perchlorate, not seriously corrosive.

I already answered that. I'm done with you

 

[alsaqr]

already answered that. I'm done with you

Not.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Breathe through your nose boys, we can shout about how horrible Pyrodex is to the moon and stars but it don't make real black powder any more available to those of us in some areas where its just not there to buy. If it goes bang when I pull the trigger I'm happy, clean your stuff when you get done and there's no problem.

 

[Lyle]

Yep, corrosive primers were very bad, they are also long gone.

That is only correct for commercial percussion caps. Our homemade caps are corrosive. Some people use the dots from roll caps others use a form of the H-48 priming compound. Both are corrosive.