Quantifiable Criteria for a "Woods" gun?

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Propforce

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I spent a big part of yesterday reading what everyone think a good carry handgun in the woods. It's what I do to "rationalize" that I need another gun. Obviously the recommendations were all over the place from 22LR to 500S&W, most posters have obviously never been to the woods let alone encountering hostile animals. A few experienced posters gave great advices but obviously we are all biased by our own personal experience and sometime a lack of clarity. For example, 10 mm Glock and 357 magnum are most often recommended but many do not mention the bullet selection and why comparable bullets in another caliber can perform the same function with similar results?

So I am thinking if there is an "objective" & "quantifiable" criteria (in a gun forum?) that you will recommend as "minimum" carrying gun in the woods? Everyone like to use bears as ultimate challenge in the woods so let's assume that is the criteria. (2-legged varmints with pink soft flesh are much easier). I live in the SE so only black bears and they are not that big (< 200 lbm). What "minimum" bullet weight and muzzle velocity will you recommend as a carry gun?

Is it a 360 gr bullet at MV ~ 1,000 fps? 1,400 fps?
255 gr bullet at MV ~ 1,000 fps?
200 gr bullet at MV ~ 1,000 fps? 1,200 fps? 1,400 fps?
180 gr bullet at MV ~ 1,100 fps?
How about 147 gr bullet at MV ~ 1,100 fps?

What is "adequate" against black bears? Please specify what size black bear in your experience.

Some examples I pulled from Buffalo Bore and Double Tap:

9mm+P
9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN 147 gr. Hard Cast FN 1,100 fps (BB)
9mm+P 147gr FMJ Flat Point Ballistics : 147gr @ 1135fps / 421ft. lbs. from a G17. Glock 19 velocity - 1120fps. (DT)

40 S&W
40 S&W OUTDOORSMAN Std Pressure Low Flash 200 gr. HC-FN (1,000 fps) (BB)
40 S&W 200gr. Hardcast Solid™ Ballistics : 200gr. @ 1050fps / 490 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl), Glock 22 4.5" bbl - 1106fps, Glock 27 3.5" bbl - 1009fps (DT)

45 ACP
45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN Ammo - 255 gr. Hard Cast FN (925 fps/M.E. 484 ft. lbs.) (BB)
45ACP+P 255gr. SWC Hardcast. Ballistics : 875fps - 434 ft./lbs. - 5" bbl. (DT)

357 Magnum
HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps from 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun (BB)
357 Magnum 180gr Hardcast Solid™ Bullet: 180gr. Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast, Velocity: 1300fps / 4" Ruger GP-100 muzzle, 1420fps / 6"bbl S&W 686, Muzzle Energy: 676 ft. lbs. 557ft lbs at 50yds from a 4" bbl (DT)

10mm
HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.) (BB)
10mm 230gr. WFNGC Hardcast, Ballistics : 1120fps/ 641 ft./lbs. - Glock 20, 1008fps / 519 ft lbs 100yds Glock 20, Glock 29 - 1075fps (DT)

44 Magnum
Lower Recoil .44 Magnum Ammo - 240 gr. JHP (1,350 fps/M.E. 971 ft. lbs.) (BB)
44 Magnum 240gr Bonded Hunter, Velocity: 1500fps / 7.5" bbl (DT)

Heavy 44 Magnum
Heavy .44 Magnum Ammo - 300 gr. JFN(1,300fps/M.E.1,126 ft.lbs.) 1334 fps -- Ruger Redhawk 5.5 inch barrel (BB)
44 Magnum 300gr.Nosler JHP, Ballistics : 1325fps - 1161 ft./lbs. - 7.5" bbl., 1255fps from a 6" Colt Anaconda, 1115fps from a 2.5" Ruger Alaskan (DT)
 
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Well, you can have opinions on quantities, but that doesn't exactly make it quantifiable, just categorical, all of which are decided on by opinion.

Simple. Largest caliber you can access quickly, shoot very well, and shoot very quickly. From all of the bear attack accounts I have read, I can't recall any where the bear dropped dead with the first shot of any pistol, so count on making multiple shots. Can you do that quickly and accurately with a .44 magnum?
 
I don't feel undergunned with a carry gun 9mm and up. In the woods, I prefer a Ruger Vaquero 44 mag with 240gr. hard cast semi wadcutters in the neighborhood of 1000-1100fps.
 
JeffG,

What if I drop your 240 gr criteria down to 200 gr but maintain the muzzle velocity at 1,000 fps? Do you still feel adequate?

This may sounds like not much change but it may allows the caliber choice from a 44 magnum to a 40 S&W. Now that's a big change.

That was the point in my OP. What is the bullet mass & MV as a criteria?
 
Interesting thread. I'm guessing you're kind of looking for something similar to the old "1000 ft/lbs of energy minimum" for hunting rule of thumb?

I don't know what will come of that, but as a hunter and lifelong woodsy guy, I trust the rifle in my hands much much much more than any handgun.

But if it came to a handgun, I believe that being able to make repeated, effective hits quickly trumps pure power.
 
I'm not sure how quantifiable it is, mostly because the term itself is somewhat invented.

How my brain files it, is that it is a step up from a service pistol cartridge, which is a compromise between energy and controlability. So, something more powerful than a carry gun. For a carry gun, I think about repeated hits, for a woods gun I think more about the first hit.
 
The best "woods gun" for 'hostile animals' is a 12ga pump gun with Brenekke slugs. From there back, 45-70 lever, 444 lever, 375 H&H Alaskan (open sight bolt gun) 35 Rem lever, 30-06 open sight bolt gun. My opinion, but then to some extent, it is a subjective question.

However, recognizing that the OP is under the mistaken impression that a handgun is a good compromise, 44 magnum with 300 grs hardcast, followed by 454 Cassul with same (and at least a 4" barrel) , followed by a Ruger heavy in 45 lc with same. One must be very experienced and a frightfully cool customer indeed to draw, fire, and hit a truly 'hostile animal' in an attack stopping manner with a handgun, especially at the distances one would ideally like to engage.

If 'hostile animals' do not include grizzly, bison, or moose, for example, anything from 9mm up will do, especially as the most "hostile animal" in the woods is another human with ill intent.

I apologize to the OP for the snarky tone, but prefacing your request for advice with "recognizing that most people don't know their own anatomy and those that do are completely biased", is an ill advised course of action.
 
As much as anything, location matters. While in Oklahoma, my 45 with 230gr Win PDX1's is almost always with me, it may not be my choice for a trip to the north. I may instead opt for my 7.5" Redhawk on a chest holster with 300gr Sierra or or Hornady XTP's. But 13+1 of those PDX1's is nothing to slouch at.
 
Opinions are like a$$holes and elbows everyone has them. That rediculous statement out of the way, the truth is we all have a favorite and we all have different challenges in our woods. Me woods actually means swamp. I won't see bears down here. But snakes and gators all day. I don't go too deep in the woods without a shotgun so it's just as likely to be a 22 on my hip as it is my 44. But if I know I'm going in pig country I'm likely to pack my 3" 44 mag. I'm actually trying to acquire a model 64 next cause for me here 38 special plus p is good enough for two and four legged critters. I may also either have a twenty, twelve or sixteen single just for wandering or that matter light hunting. I won't pack a pump unless I'm wingshooting.
 
swampcrawler said:
Interesting thread. I'm guessing you're kind of looking for something similar to the old "1000 ft/lbs of energy minimum" for hunting rule of thumb?

I don't know what will come of that, but as a hunter and lifelong woodsy guy, I trust the rifle in my hands much much much more than any handgun.

But if it came to a handgun, I believe that being able to make repeated, effective hits quickly trumps pure power.
Click to expand...

Hi S_C,

Yes I am looking for something along that line except I don't think the energy term is a good quantifier when it comes to tough skin animals, so I am looking more in line of "250 gr @ 1,200 fps" type of number.

My reason is different calibers may achieve the same criteria. 10mm, 41 mag, 45LC +P, 44 mag, etc. but if it is a lower criterion, such as "200 gr @1,000 fps" then it opens up service caliber choices though some do not advice those. For example, some feel it's not adequate to carry a 45ACP in the woods while others feel perfectly comfortable in doing so.

While I recognize a shotgun or a high power rifle are more persuasive against tough skinned animals, for sake of argument please stay within the topic of carry handguns.
 
Not all woods are equal.

Thus the variety of responses. Even in my state of New Mexico there are some outdoor areas in which I feel perfectly equipped with nothing more than a Ruger Single-Six, and others, especially close to the border, that I want the most powerful long gun that I can carry during the task at hand.
 
RPRNY said:
If 'hostile animals' do not include grizzly, bison, or moose, for example, anything from 9mm up will do, especially as the most "hostile animal" in the woods is another human with ill intent.
Click to expand...

Even for lower 48 black bears?
Buffalo Bore has a good story of an Alaskan guide stopped a brown bear with his 9mm+P
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

But does this convince you a 9mm is good enough for bears?
 
Sistema1927 said:
Not all woods are equal.

Thus the variety of responses. Even in my state of New Mexico there are some outdoor areas in which I feel perfectly equipped with nothing more than a Ruger Single-Six, and others, especially close to the border, that I want the most powerful long gun that I can carry during the task at hand.
Click to expand...

Very true statement.

I'd like to go fishing in a nearby river. The most dangerous is probably feral 2-legged variety but occasionally a black bear will show up. My 638 is small & comfortable to carry in my pocket for the 2-legged meth-heads who may try to score a quick buck, but I wouldn't even think about using it against a black bear. I could carry the 454 Casull but it's heavy plus I'll raise a few eyebrows open carrying it. So I justify the 638 recognizing a very remote chance I will face a bear attack. I will be more than happy to donate my fish if that's what it wants.
 
If you *see* a black bear in the first place, it will more than likely be running in the opposite direction as fast as it can get there. My grandfather lived to 77 years old...he spent over 70 of those years in the woods of upstate NYS. Every bear he ever encountered, he waited a minute and it went on its' way.

I am a USCG Aux member...of my active-duty colleagues, several have been stationed in Kodiak, AK. All of them said if the bears knew you were there, they left you alone and got as far away as possible. Almost without exception, they drew a weapon on people more often than bears, BECAUSE THE PERSON DIDN'T BOTHER TO CALL OUT THAT THEY WERE A PERSON.

Having given you the advice to let the bear go on its' way, I will state that it's been a few years since I spent any time in the woods, but when I did carry a handgun, it was either a 6-inch S&W 27-2 .357 Magnum, or a 5-inch Stainless Colt O1091 .45 ACP 1911. Those were my first two handguns. If I had to go bumming around the woods, right here and now log off my computer and go for a week, I'd take my CZ-75B 9mm.
 
The most dangerous stuff that I may encounter in the woods I find myself in would be hogs and black bears. I don't claim to be an expert at much, and what I do learn comes from people who are usually smarter than me. In the case of hogs, I know my Glock 23 (40 S&W) will do the job- since I have put them down with quickness using less (Kbar). When I was hunting black bear in Maine most of the guides carried 45 autos. One (who was a former game warden) carried a 9mm- which he used to put down a wounded bear DRT with one shot. Another carried a riot gun full of buckshot because he told me he was no good with a handgun. Thus, my pistol in bear country is my Glock 21 (45). If I was fly fishing in Alaska, I may see the need for a Dirty Harry magnum or whatever. Until then, I'm good.
 
FL-NC said:
The most dangerous stuff that I may encounter in the woods I find myself in would be hogs and black bears. I don't claim to be an expert at much, and what I do learn comes from people who are usually smarter than me. In the case of hogs, I know my Glock 23 (40 S&W) will do the job- since I have put them down with quickness using less (Kbar). When I was hunting black bear in Maine most of the guides carried 45 autos. One (who was a former game warden) carried a 9mm- which he used to put down a wounded bear DRT with one shot. Another carried a riot gun full of buckshot because he told me he was no good with a handgun. Thus, my pistol in bear country is my Glock 21 (45). If I was fly fishing in Alaska, I may see the need for a Dirty Harry magnum or whatever. Until then, I'm good.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Good feedback from real life experience.

What ammo do you put in your 45? 40S&W?
 
Here in Florida, what I end up with is usually my 9mm carry piece. That will cover pretty much anything. However, were open-carry legal here when hiking, I'd be tempted to carry my Service Six .357, probably loaded with Winchester 140-grain ST-HP or Am-Eagle 158-grain JSP, the two heaviest .357 loads I have on hand. Once I get some experience with my recently-acquired first 1911, that may move to the front of the line as well, since it's easier to conceal.
 
Here in Southern Nevada, the largest predator I could run into, other than man, would be wild Dogs, Bobcats or extremely rare, a Mountain Lion. I use to carry a S&W .45 Colt Mountain Gun, with two rounds of Snake Shot, up front, followed by four rounds of 255gn SWC. I always have my Sig P238 .380 in my front pocket.

Sadly, I sold that S&W awhile back. So, the last few times I was out, I carried my Charter Arms Pittbull .45acp. Two rounds of Snake Shot, up front, followed by three rounds of 185gn Gold Dots. On these recent trips, I replaced my .380 pocket gun, with a .327 Federal Magnum Ruger pocket gun with six rounds of 100gn jacketed soft points. I am very comfortable with what I carry and do not feel under gunned in anyway.
 
A 'Woods' gun has little to do with caliber. It has more to do with utility.

A woods gun as to be portable, powerful yet capable of firing low powered ammunition if needed, versatile in loads, and accurate. And do all this without much effort to change ammo.

Take a revolver in .357. A 4 inch version is quite portable, powerful with max loads yet it can shoot wimp .38 wadcutters, can shoot snake shot on up to heavy 180 grain hard cast with just a fast cock/uncock to change chambers under the hammer, and in good versions it can shoot very accurately.

It's that flexibility that really makes it a woods gun capable of handling virtually all situations one would expect to find in the woods.

Deaf
 
In a woods gun, I like a high sectional density boolit with a nice flat meplat.

Velocity should be about 1000fps AND of a decent power factor.

In a 357 that'd be a 158 or 180gr SWC at 1200fps

45 super would be a 250gr SWC/WFN at 1000fp

44mag a >240gr at 1000fps.

10mm would be a 180-200gr at 1100ish
 
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