Quantifiable Criteria for a "Woods" gun?

[MTMilitiaman]

So many people are so concerned about bears. Taking care of your food and being aware of your surroundings while in the back forty is prudent. But in my experience, bears do their best to avoid you. If you can avoid certain situations, like ending up between a sow and cubs, or startling a bear on carrion, or tempting them into your site with unsecured food, you likely won't have to worry about bears much. Respect the power, give them distance, but understand, they are not roving blood-thirsty boogy men. I've been in bear country pretty much my entire life. With as much time as I have spent growing up in and working in the woods, I've had numerous encounters with black bears. Usually, you see the south end of a north bound bear. On a couple of occasions, juvenile bears have approached out of curiosity. One time in particular, my trail crew and I had a ~120 pound black bear juvenile follow us for about half a mile. It was a precarious situation because the bear seemed un-phased by the running chainsaw or four adults waving arms aggressively. It eventually wondered off, only to reappear about twenty feet behind me as I rested against a stump an hour later. A guy sitting directly across the trail from me saw him and warned me. I jumped up, spun around, and pitched my hardhat at him. He jumped backwards, sniffed the helmet for a couple seconds, then left for good. That was the most dangerous encounter I've had with a black bear.

I've seen grizzlies on a couple of occasions in NW MT. The first was 40 yards uphill during my first summer working Trails and Rec for the USDA Forest Service during summers when I was going to college. It wondered across the bear grass, barely paying any mind at all to us, and sauntered off with his casual gangster lean, leaving us all cowering behind the guy with the chainsaw. The second was with my brother about two miles from our parents house. I was sighting in a rifle at a power line maintenance road and my brother noticed a stump along the left tree line was moving about a quarter mile away. Grizzly had decided to vacate the area as soon as my 7 Mag had disturbed his silence. We never shot at him and never saw him any closer.

Now mountain lions, those scare me. Seen a few of those, but generally, they are secretive enough you only see them when they want you too. A friend told me about a friend of his who got a nice bull elk outside Lolo with his bow. He set a camera up on a stump on a timer, knelt down behind the bull, and took a picture, then proceeded to field dress his bull and begin the arduous process of getting it out of the woods. The next day he goes to show this picture to his friends and notices that barely ten feet behind him as he knelt down behind his bull, there is this large mountain lion crouched, ready to pounce before the flash of the camera apparently disoriented him. Dude never knew cougar was there until he saw it on the camera the day after...

Wow. That was penned by Tim Sundles, proprietor of Buffalo Bore Ammunition.

That explains a lot.

He also produces some of the finest ammunition you can purchase. His handgun ammo is superb, but I digress.

Really? I wouldn't use Buffalo Bore ammunition if it was the last ammunition on earth. It is overpriced gun show reloads. Anyone who markets "+P .40 S&W" is reckless and stupid. Designating something "+P" has meaning. There are specifications adhered to that provide a margin of safety. Industry maximum chamber pressure is set at 35,000 PSI, which is the same as the 9x19. There is no industry standard for +P .40 S&W. According to SAAMI, it doesn't exist. You can't just dump extra powder in the case, snap your suspenders, and declare "those er a lil hot," as you scribble "+P" on the box. Indeed, the .40 S&W is already loaded to as much pressure as any handgun on the market is designed to take. Marketing ammunition loaded beyond industry specs and then blaming any accidents on the handgun is beyond irresponsible and dangerous. It is not a matter of chamber support. The Glock chamber is within SAAMI spec. It is a matter of staying within industry regulated pressure limits. Screw Tim Sundles and Buffalo Bore. Plenty of legitimate ammunition manufactures allow you to achieve as much performance from the .40 as the case will handle without exceeding safe operating pressures. If you download a PDF of "American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Pistol and Revolver Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers" you find that Glock is a member, as is pretty much every single ammunition manufacture from Winchester and Federal, to Double Tap. No Buffalo Bore.

 

[CraigC]

It is overpriced gun show reloads.

I don't know the reason for your vendetta against Buffalo Bore and don't really care. You are entitled to your opinion but your facts are just wrong. Most people assume that factory ammo is loaded right at SAAMI maximum. They are not. They are loaded well under maximum in deference to manufacturing tolerances, for liability reasons. The reason Buffalo Bore costs so much is that they are taking much more care in crafting their ammo and load right at maximum. They are loaded by humans on reloading presses, not huge factories. Same for other companies like Garrett and Grizzly.

There are also no SAAMI standards for .45Colt or .44Mag +P but they are in common use and perfectly fine as long as they don't end up in the wrong guns.

The only stipulation placed on Buffalo Bore's .40S&W +P ammo is that you should not use them in a pistol with unsupported chambers, naming Glock specifically.

You know it costs money to be a member of SAAMI, right?

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I don't know the reason for your vendetta against Buffalo Bore and don't really care. You are entitled to your opinion but your facts are just wrong. Most people assume that factory ammo is loaded right at SAAMI maximum. They are not. They are loaded well under maximum in deference to manufacturing tolerances, for liability reasons. The reason Buffalo Bore costs so much is that they are taking much more care in crafting their ammo and load right at maximum. They are loaded by humans on reloading presses, not huge factories. Same for other companies like Garrett and Grizzly.

There are also no SAAMI standards for .45Colt or .44Mag +P but they are in common use and perfectly fine as long as they don't end up in the wrong guns.

The only stipulation placed on Buffalo Bore's .40S&W +P ammo is that you should not use them in a pistol with unsupported chambers, naming Glock specifically.

You know it costs money to be a member of SAAMI, right?

My vendetta against Buffalo Bore is that I am a safe and responsible firearms owner. I understand that labels exist for a reason. You should only use ammunition in your firearms that your firearms were designed to use. That is why the caliber or gauge is printed on the side of the barrel. The industry has defined acceptable dimensions and pressures for cartridges and chambers. Most of the industry adheres to these standards for the sake of simplicity and safety. Buffalo Bore does not. Furthermore, they use the same labels and designations as the rest of the industry. This is unsafe and leads to confusion. I can tell you what +P 9mm or .45 ACP is loaded to. There is an industry standard for those. Not so with the .40. Sundles then takes the coward's way out and refuses to accept accountability for his recklessness and lack of responsibility by casting any problems off as "unsupported chambers." Bullpucky. The Glock chamber is within industry spec, unlike Buffalo Bore ammunition, and is safe for use with any safe, industry spec ammunition.

What's this? You have to pay to be a member of SAAMI? No! Say it isn't so! [/sarcasm] Yet almost everyone else in the industry pays these dues and participates in this process because they care about safe responsible gun ownership. Not so with Buffalo Bore. Gee, I wonder why?

 

[CraigC]

I don't reckon you actually comprehended what I posted.

Sundles doesn't believe it's worth the expense to be a member of SAAMI. Maybe you could explain what the benefits are? That is, without this nonsense about "safe responsible gun ownership". Total straw man argument.

Since it's so unsafe and they've been in business a good while, I'm sure you can also provide examples of where people have damaged their guns or gotten injured with their ammo.

 

[roscoe]

Yah - I have shot a lot of Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap in a variety of firearms and calibers: 9mm, .38, .357, .32ACP, .45Colt, and have never had any sign of over-pressure. And if there were a danger, the internet would have been all over it by now. I don't always agree with everything Tim Sundles says, but his ammo is solid.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I don't reckon you actually comprehended what I posted.

Sundles doesn't believe it's worth the expense to be a member of SAAMI. Maybe you could explain what the benefits are? That is, without this nonsense about "safe responsible gun ownership". Total straw man argument.

Since it's so unsafe and they've been in business a good while, I'm sure you can also provide examples of where people have damaged their guns or gotten injured with their ammo.

And I don't believe you actually comprehend what I posted. It doesn't matter if Sundles wants to or not. As noted in both the referenced PDF's title and later in the disclaimer, partnership in and adherence to industry standards is voluntary. The standards result in a level of interchangeability and confidence that benefit everyone in the industry. Sundles can say and market whatever he wants. But he then markets his garbage under industry standard labels and designations. In another, less dangerous and more politically correct industry this would be seen as merely rude. In our professional it goes beyond not being cordial, it is reckless, dangerous, and stupid. If he wants to load the .40 S&W to higher than 35,000 PSI, he should call it something besides "+P" because this is an industry designation that means it meets a certain standard. It doesn't. There is no industry standard for +P .40 S&W. Call it the .40 Buffalo Bore or whatever, but don't snub the industry then profit off the confusion garnished by pilfering goods using labels and designations from the very industry you snubbed. It is like scientific method and preferring peer reviewed literature over that which is not. Scientific method exists to ensure safety and validity of the results and helps progress the industry or field. You can ignore scientific method, but then to tout any unfavorable results to industry approved technology that doesn't meet your arbitrary standards while designating it with labels already defined and established in the scientific community... I have nothing good or High Road to say about Mr. Sundles or Buffalo Bore Ammunition. They are both canine fecal matter to me and as such, I wouldn't associate with either if you gave them to me.

 

[CraigC]

You obviously have some deep seated personal issues that do not seem to be founded in reality but carry on. I'm sure Sundles will manage without your business.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Yah - I have shot a lot of Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap in a variety of firearms and calibers: 9mm, .38, .357, .32ACP, .45Colt, and have never had any sign of over-pressure. And if there were a danger, the internet would have been all over it by now. I don't always agree with everything Tim Sundles says, but his ammo is solid.

Don't lump Mike McNett and Double Tap Ammunition in with Buffalo Bore. Unlike Buffalo Bore, Double Tap actually contributes to and participates in the industry they profit from. They are a member of SAAMI and they do not market +P .40 S&W. Like I said, plenty of manufactures allow you to achieve all the performance you can get from a case while staying within industry established norms that exist for all of us.

emphasis added

Sponsor Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. Members Beretta USA Corporation Broadsword Group LLC Browning Arms Company CCI/Speer Ammunition Colt’s Manufacturing Company LLC COR-BON/Glaser LLC Federal Cartridge Company Fiocchi of America, Inc. Glock Hodgdon Powder Company Hornady Manufacturing Company Kahr Arms Marlin Firearms Company North American Arms, Inc. O.F. Mossberg & Sons, Inc. Olin Corporation/Winchester Division Remington Arms Company, LLC SIG SAUER, Inc. Smith & Wesson Holding Corp. St. Marks Powder, Inc. Sturm, Ruger & Co., Inc. Taurus Holdings, Inc. Weatherby, Inc. Associate Members: Alliant Powder Nosler, Inc Ruag Ammotech USA, Inc. Savage Arms, Inc. Supporting Members: Advanced Tactical Armament Concepts, LLC Barnes Bullets, LLC Black Hills Ammunition, Inc. Doubletap Ammunition, Inc. Kent Cartridge, America Knight Rifles LCT Pro Shop One Shot, Inc. ProGrade Ammo Group LLC Southern Ballistic Research, LLC d/b/a SBR

I like the fact that beyond all the flashy marketing, some things on the label still mean something. I like knowing that there is an agreed standard that my weapon manufacture and ammo manufacture adhere to. But apparently this means I have issues.

If .40 S&W +P is so safe, show me one Owner/Operator's Manual that approves the use of .40 S&W +P, or list the chamber pressure of .40 S&W +P...

 

[OC-Trainer]

You obviously have some deep seated personal issues that do not seem to be founded in reality but carry on. I'm sure Sundles will manage without your business.

When did Buffalo Bore start making Kool-aid? MTMMilitaman articulated his case very well and everything checks out. You are the one who didn't provide any kind of source to support your claims. Instead you go with the ad hominem attack. Bush league.

But then again you view Tim as " well-respected industry folks like Tim Sundles," which is laughable.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...underwood-in-38-special.798699/#post-10186482

 

[CraigC]

When did Buffalo Bore start making Kool-aid? MTMMilitaman articulated his case very well and everything checks out. You are the one who didn't provide any kind of source to support your claims. Instead you go with the ad hominem attack. Bush league.

But then again you view Tim as " well-respected industry folks like Tim Sundles," which is laughable.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...underwood-in-38-special.798699/#post-10186482

All you agree with is the attack on Buffalo Bore. You guys part of the same club? Do you have anything to refute the claim that Sundles is well respected in the industry? Or just baseless slander?

Articulated what case? Because they market a .40S&W +P? Supported by what evidence, exactly? Seems to me more like an unsubstantiated, biased opinion = axe to grind.

Kool-Aid? Ad hominem??? Sounds like the result of a failed argument.

And I have never fired a round of Buffalo Bore ammo in my life. I just know that you are wrong and wrong headed.

Don't lump Mike McNett and Double Tap Ammunition in with Buffalo Bore. Unlike Buffalo Bore, Double Tap actually contributes to and participates in the industry they profit from. They are a member of SAAMI and they do not market +P .40 S&W. Like I said, plenty of manufactures allow you to achieve all the performance you can get from a case while staying within industry established norms that exist for all of us.

emphasis added


I like the fact that beyond all the flashy marketing, some things on the label still mean something. I like knowing that there is an agreed standard that my weapon manufacture and ammo manufacture adhere to. But apparently this means I have issues.

If .40 S&W +P is so safe, show me one Owner/Operator's Manual that approves the use of .40 S&W +P, or list the chamber pressure of .40 S&W +P...

They market .45Colt +P. What's the difference? In another thread (below) I posted links to six different companies that market loads that are NOT SAAMI spec'd +P. Do you hold the same grudge against them? Wanna talk about Kool-Aid??? I've met McNett a couple times and he seems like a good guy. I'm sure he wouldn't appreciate his contributions being used as "ammo" to use against Sundles.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...th-smokeless-ammo-cartridge-cylinders.821358/

 

[OC-Trainer]

Craig, I guess your computer didn't come with Google.
I could post dozens upon dozens of links, but I'm not sure it would make a difference. You are too far gone with your love affair with this company.

 

[CraigC]

Repeating that won't make it any less false.

I'm not the one going on a hysterical tirade about it.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Since it's so unsafe and they've been in business a good while, I'm sure you can also provide examples of where people have damaged their guns or gotten injured with their ammo.

Here you go, Craig. Here is Tim himself stating that guns have "cracked and blown" with his ammo. Love to see how you spin this.

only three customers had ever contacted me with "blown or cracked" guns.

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php/74013-Buffalo-Bore-customer-service-question

If you believe it was "only" 3, I have some land for sale in FL for you.

Do you have anything to refute the claim that Sundles is well respected in the industry? Or just baseless slander?

Now you can no longer use the term "baseless claims." There's plenty more where that came from, too. Frankly, it is rather easy to demonstrably show that some (most?) of what you are claiming is just flat out wrong.

 

[tomrkba]

Woods gun? Let's call it "Woods sidearm" since rifles are king. It should use a hunting cartridge suitable for killing the largest game animal in the area. This will work on humans too. I will not fool around with snake shot, light loads, alternating what is in the cylinder, etc. I am planning for the worst and loading to that threat. Any lesser threat will be more easily handled by the cartridges in the gun. I can still use it to hunt game animals in an emergency, though I would prefer a rifle. A handgun is still about portability while providing short range performance.

44 Magnum is more than enough for the East Coast. I could probably move to "Warm" 45 Colt, hunting 357 Magnum, hot 45 ACP, 45 Auto Rim or 10mm with hunting bullets and be fine. Out west, I'd go with hotter 44 Magnum or very hot 10mm.

 

[Propforce]

HEY GUYS!! TAKE YOUR ARGUMENTS ON BAFFALO BORE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!

This is my thread about what to carry in the woods. I don't want the Mods to close this thread because of your PETTY ARGUMENTS as you guys always get into. Take it elsewhere!!

STAY ON TOPIC, please!!!

 

[MaxP]

I know Mike McNett and Tim Sundles personally. I have nothing bad to say about either and will not. That said, I have shot literally thousands of rounds of Double Tap and Buffalo Bore over the years in a wide variety of calibers. In fact, I test a lot of ammo from a number of manufacturers over the years and I can say without reservation that Buffalo Bore is among the best and is truly premium and it is in bad form to suggest that they are akin to gun show reloads. Having actually used his ammo on game, and I base my opinions upon real field performance and have not drawn my conclusions or judged his product line by his marketing or the fact that he offers .40 S&W loads in +P form.

Sorry for the thread hijacking, Propforce.

 

[MaxP]

When did Buffalo Bore start making Kool-aid?

On the same note, when did they start producing kryptonite? It is clear this is personal - or so it seems.

 

[OC-Trainer]

On the same note, when did they start producing kryptonite? It is clear this is personal - or so it seems.

It is not personal to me at all. I didn't even know who the guy was a few weeks ago. Yet, I was able to find (very easily) a ton of info that made me not want to support that man's business.

You yourself, stated (about Mr. Sundles)

he is not prone to hyperbole or lying.

Strong words, but, with a 2 minute search I was able to find information to the contrary.

Like I said earlier, what MTMillitiaman stated checks out, and it can be very easily found with a general Google search.

Now, out of respect for the OP, I will move on, but make no mistake, I can continue to post dozens and dozens of links to support what MTMillitaman stated.

 

[MaxP]

It is not personal to me at all. I didn't even know who the guy was a few weeks ago. Yet, I was able to find (very easily) a ton of info that made me not want to support that man's business.

You yourself, stated (about Mr. Sundles)

Strong words, but, with a 2 minute search I was able to find information to the contrary.

Like I said earlier, what MTMillitiaman stated checks out, and it can be very easily found with a general Google search.

Now, out of respect for the OP, I will move on, but make no mistake, I can continue to post dozens and dozens of links to support what MTMillitaman stated.

My comment was directed at MtMilitiaman, not you. Sorry I didn't clarify better. Yup, strong words from someone who actually knows Tim. On the other hand, even stronger words against him by folks who evidently don't know him.

As far as bad press on the internet is concerned, I take a majority of it with a grain of salt. If you can't trust the veracity of claims by the major media sources, why would you trust random reporting on the internet? JMHO. On that note, I am out and again apologize to the OP for the wandering thread.

 

[CraigC]

I didn't even know who the guy was a few weeks ago. Yet, I was able to find (very easily) a ton of info that made me not want to support that man's business.

So you Googled for five minutes looking for something negative and based on that you openly condemn a man and his business? That's rich. Yeah, strong words from an anonymous internet character who doesn't even let people view his profile. While you sit here and courageously judge people you were previously unaware of based on five minutes of Googling, Tim is putting his money where his mouth is. He used to post on the old Sixgunner.com site but baseless crap like this is the main reason he no longer does forums.

 

[OC-Trainer]

So you Googled for five minutes looking for something negative and based on that you openly condemn a man and his business? That's rich. Yeah, strong words from an anonymous internet character who doesn't even let people view his profile. While you sit here and courageously judge people you were previously unaware of based on five minutes of Googling, Tim is putting his money where his mouth is. He used to post on the old Sixgunner.com site but baseless crap like this is the main reason he no longer does forums.

Neat! Is that the picture you keep in your wallet of him?

Not only are you disrespecting the OP when he specifically requested that you drop it, you seem to have some sort of obsession with him. The funny thing is, you don't even use his ammo. Bizarre.

So move along and build your strawmen elsewhere.

 

[CraigC]

...you seem to have some sort of obsession with him.....The funny thing is, you don't even use his ammo. Bizarre.....So move along and build your strawmen elsewhere.

Look in the mirror and repeat that to yourself.

Then look up the definition of "straw man".

 

[ThomasT]

HEY GUYS!! TAKE YOUR ARGUMENTS ON BAFFALO BORE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!

This is my thread about what to carry in the woods. I don't want the Mods to close this thread because of your PETTY ARGUMENTS as you guys always get into. Take it elsewhere!!

STAY ON TOPIC, please!!!

Well, so much for your request. There are a couple of members here who while very knowledgeable will argue with a fence post just to prove they are right and others are wrong. Sorry for the destruction of your thread.

 

[Dog Soldier]

We have Old Grizz, Mtn Lions, Black Bears Arctic Wolves etc. Most out door folks respect the local Shira Moose population. These animals attack without reason move fast and they are 1,000 pounds of mad. Most any fire arm can stop their attack. When they live in your lawn you must be alert after dark. This young Bull has a bad attitude.

 

[JeffG]

JeffG,

What if I drop your 240 gr criteria down to 200 gr but maintain the muzzle velocity at 1,000 fps? Do you still feel adequate?

This may sounds like not much change but it may allows the caliber choice from a 44 magnum to a 40 S&W. Now that's a big change.

That was the point in my OP. What is the bullet mass & MV as a criteria?

My criteria is "based" on the writings of Elmer Keith, and a lot of observed experience. My LEO career early on made me realize that handguns are never the Hammer of Thor. On occasion we were called upon to dispatch car injured deer; service pistols were routinely called into use. Body shots with .357 mag , .40 S&W, 45 ACP, 9mm, and the like were woefully inadequate. We wanted incapacitation so they would not run away, or run into traffic. Head shots and neck-patch shots were instantly better, but required better marksmanship.
.44 mag, 45 Colt and the like with cutting shoulder bullets deliver three things...meplat shock and line of sight penetration, and a free and open entrance and exit hole. That's the kind of hunting, and stopping performance I want, ideally. Meplat shock; the effect on a living animal is out of proportion to the effect you would expect. Push a square bar of soap through water, and watch the ripples, then push a round bar...the shock waves, or disruption is more at right angles with the square bar.
If you want to hit a certain organ, you have to maintain as close to a direct line as you can. This requires a heavy bullet. Lighter expanding bullets can bounce on skull, or deflect on bone, or take the rifling spin once it hits flesh, and get waylayed off its intended path. This penetration is also effective on skulls of larger animals. Harder cast bullets resist deformation.
The cutting shoulder of a hardcast Keith style semi wadcutter, leaves a clean hole front and back for not only blood loss, but pneumothorax, a sucking chest wound, which incapacitates the animal with collapsed lung(s). The 1000 fps floor is my subjective criteria, it adds steam to effect of the bullet, and limits rainbow trajectory to say 75 yards. While not a plinking round, they will get the job done.

Hope this helps.