Quantifiable Criteria for a "Woods" gun?

[RPRNY]

Craig,

You keep having the same argument with numerous folks, albeit with variations on the theme. So, 'everybody' does not, as you assert, agree with you.

Allowances have been made, quite specifically, for your world renowned expertise with a handgun. We, the unworthy, genuflect to your expertise and experience.

The OP doesn't have that experience. (But then, who does? ;-) So, telling the OP that handguns are better than long guns, in the same paragraph in which you admit that long guns "are easier to hit with", is, frankly, absurd. What may be true for you, with many decades of experience hunting with handguns, cannot possibly be true for mere mortals.

Sharing your vast experience and erudite opinions is indeed most beneficial. Extrapolating that your preferences are equally suited to the unwashed masses is unwise. Stick with "long guns are easier to hit with" and work from there. Maybe recommend a lever carbine in 44 Magnum?

 

[CraigC]

Craig,

You keep having the same argument with numerous folks, albeit with variations on the theme. So, 'everybody' does not, as you assert, agree with you.

Allowances have been made, quite specifically, for your world renowned expertise with a handgun. We, the unworthy, genuflect to your expertise and experience.

The OP doesn't have that experience. (But then, who does? ;-) So, telling the OP that handguns are better than long guns, in the same paragraph in which you admit that long guns "are easier to hit with", is, frankly, absurd. What may be true for you, with many decades of experience hunting with handguns, cannot possibly be true for mere mortals.

Sharing your vast experience and erudite opinions is indeed most beneficial. Extrapolating that your preferences are equally suited to the unwashed masses is unwise. Stick with "long guns are easier to hit with" and work from there. Maybe recommend a lever carbine in 44 Magnum?

Sarcasm duly noted, unproductive as it may be but you are putting words in my mouth. I never said handguns were better than long guns, or even implied it. What I said, that you quoted was:

Contrary to popular belief, rifles are not more capable, they simply have more range and are easier to hit with. Also contrary to popular belief, shotgun slugs would be my absolute last choice.

Which is to say that rifles are indeed better, just not in the way many people seem to think. I am certainly not "extrapolating that my preferences are equally suited to the unwashed masses" but this thread is about handguns for woods carry, not the best tool for killing bears. So I don't understand why you felt the need to even bring up rifles and shotguns.

Nor did I say that "everybody" agreed with me. What we do have is a lot of guys who've never taken game with a handgun telling those of us who have what is and isn't possible. What I "categorically dismiss" is your "categoric dismissal" of the handgun, the notion that the right handgun is somehow terminally inferior to a rifle or a shotgun with slugs. Because I know for a fact that this is untrue.

I anxiously await evidence that shotgun slugs somehow magically defy all that we KNOW about terminal performance.

 

[RPRNY]

Your concessions are duly noted and appreciated. Your face saving contortions will be allowed without further comment.

In your words, long guns are easier to hit with. I certainly never made any argument about terminal ballistics or suggested that proper caliber handguns were inadequate. However, for the limited circumstances in which defending against a large and dangerous animal may be required, I will let your own words stand. That which is easier to hit with is better.

 

[CraigC]

Face saving contortions???

There is no reason for this to be nasty. Maybe you need to read the OP again, because you seem to have forgotten the topic of this thread.

 

[Hanshi]

The danger from snakes, bears and hogs (not necessarily feral dogs) is highly over rated. Lightening is a much, much greater danger than any of these. Depending on where you live two legged vermin could be a real problem.

I've always lived in the Southeast; 62 of those years in the deep Southeast. The only times I've been concerned was when confronted by wild dogs; a pack killed a retired couple not that far from where we lived. "Wild" critters will almost always run away but not necessarily wild dogs.

With all this being said it really depends on what your intention is for going into the bush. Deer hunting? Take a serious gun. Small game? Take a small gun. For me it simply depends - assuming I'm not actually hunting - on my mood. I like to carry my Woodsman or my Mkl BB Ruger, sometimes my S&W M15 or M18. A favorite is my OM Ruger BH .45 Colt. I don't go into the bush to confront bears, snakes, hogs, wild dogs or two legged vermin. I go either to hunt (appropriate gun) or to just roam.

 

[red rick]

I had a black bear stalk me out of the woods a few years ago during muzzleloader season . My shouts did not run him off . I decided after that experience that I would carry a handgun with me at least during the muzzleloader season . I had a 6" .357 686 that I could have used with 180 gr. hard cast ammo , but I went out and bought a 4" Ruger Redhawk .44mag. . I carry it with hard cast 240 gr. WNFP ammo in a chest holster . I kind of wish that I would have gone with a 5 1/2" barrel now that I have the chest rig . I figure you will only get one or two shots before the bear is on you so I see no need for high capacity and I want a revolvers reliability in that situation with that style of bullet .

 

[CraigC]

The danger from snakes, bears and hogs (not necessarily feral dogs) is highly over rated. Lightening is a much, much greater danger than any of these. Depending on where you live two legged vermin could be a real problem.

IMHO, you are FAR more likely to use a handgun on critters than any two legged threat. I've spent a lot of years traveling a lot of miles in the woods and have used a handgun countless times. Never on a human.

 

[TomJ]

OP,

Attached is a link to an article from Buffalo Bore's web site that may answer your question.

Tom

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108

 

[OC-Trainer]

OP,

Attached is a link to an article from Buffalo Bore's web site that may answer your question.

Tom

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108

Thank you for posting that link. I don't know who the author Tim is, but that was some of the worst, most bombastic advice on bears I've ever seen written. If what he wrote is a glimpse into his mindset, I won't be purchasing from him in the future. The advice on the ammo was on point, but the rest was straight garbage.

 

[CraigC]

The author is Tim Sundles, purveyor of Buffalo Bore. So which part exactly did you think was "straight garbage", the part about human life being more valuable than critter???

 

[TomJ]

Thank you for posting that link. I don't know who the author Tim is, but that was some of the worst, most bombastic advice on bears I've ever seen written. If what he wrote is a glimpse into his mindset, I won't be purchasing from him in the future. The advice on the ammo was on point, but the rest was straight garbage.

Can you be more specific about what makes the advice so bad?

 

[MaxP]

Thank you for posting that link. I don't know who the author Tim is, but that was some of the worst, most bombastic advice on bears I've ever seen written. If what he wrote is a glimpse into his mindset, I won't be purchasing from him in the future. The advice on the ammo was on point, but the rest was straight garbage.

Wow. That was penned by Tim Sundles, proprietor of Buffalo Bore Ammunition. Tim has more bear experience than most I would suspect and he is not prone to hyperbole or lying. He also produces some of the finest ammunition you can purchase. His handgun ammo is superb, but I digress. I'm not sure why bear defense discussions always turn into feces slinging skirmishes, but those who often deride the big-bore revolver as a viable defensive tool typically lack the experience to draw such conclusions. Yes, large caliber handguns are hard to master and require a lot trigger time to master, but I would say that whatever you choose for bear/dog/lion/dinosaur/etc. defense you should take the time to become proficient as all of the horsepower in the world won't do you a lick of good during a determined charge by ______ (fill in the blank) if you miss. While I have not had the unfortunate opportunity of experiencing a brown bear charge, I did have a 1,000-lb bovine take exception to me trying to take his life with an attempt to make a grease stain out of me. I stopped that with a revolver, and can tell you that like any firearm you choose, you will be well served by penetration and placement -- that and a little luck -- actually maybe a lot of luck, but you don't have time to contemplate the details until afterwards. But again, I digress.

I would say that the OP should choose what gun he is most comfortable and familiar with that is of an adequate caliber, but more importantly loaded to take on the biggest threat THOSE woods have to offer. For some that might be a .357 or a .40 S&W, others, a .475 Linebaugh. There is no hard and fast rule, more of a "what suits the user best" rule.

 

[OC-Trainer]

I don't have the time right this minute to dissect every word he wrote, but the tone of what he wrote reeked of machismo and BS, not to mention he seems to advocate a form of vigilantism with some of the things he claims to do/have done. For example:

When they show aggression to humans, it is irresponsible to let them live as they will eventually permanently harm or kill someone. I don’t care that our governmental wild life agencies are protecting bears. They are generally misguided in this tactic.

Says who, him? Who does he think he is? He acts like he's some sort of "bear whisperer" or something.

He'll also never be able to produce any realistic evidence to support some of the claims he makes, either:

Bear aggression and attacks are far more common that most fish and game agencies want to report

No one doubts the "three S" method is happening, but you can be damn sure that if a human drop of blood is spilled (due to a bear) it is going to be reported. Fact is, bear attacks are rare.

And really, how can you even take him seriously when he says this (in the context of being in bear country):

There is no need to be afraid of bears

Yeah, whatever Tim. Why would anyone need you ammo then?

Lastly, my gut reaction regarding the air of vigilantism wafting from what he wrote was confirmed after Googling his name.

Not someone I want to support, that's for sure. YMMV

 

[ThomasT]

I read the article and thought it was informative, well written and full of common sense. But what do I know. I have no desire to kill a bear legally or otherwise. But if one got after me and I am armed you better believe I am going to shoot it. And if it scares me bad enough and I was not armed there is a good chance I will go back after it after I have armed myself like I did with the rattlesnake I stepped on.

 

[CraigC]

I don't have the time right this minute to dissect every word he wrote, but the tone of what he wrote reeked of machismo and BS, not to mention he seems to advocate a form of vigilantism with some of the things he claims to do/have done. For example:



Says who, him? Who does he think he is? He acts like he's some sort of "bear whisperer" or something.

He'll also never be able to produce any realistic evidence to support some of the claims he makes, either:


No one doubts the "three S" method is happening, but you can be damn sure that if a human drop of blood is spilled (due to a bear) it is going to be reported. Fact is, bear attacks are rare.

And really, how can you even take him seriously when he says this (in the context of being in bear country):



Yeah, whatever Tim. Why would anyone need you ammo then?

Lastly, my gut reaction regarding the air of vigilantism wafting from what he wrote was confirmed after Googling his name.

Not someone I want to support, that's for sure. YMMV

Still trying to figure out how someone could come away from the article with that impression.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Still trying to figure out how someone could come away from the article with that impression.

Let's try it this way, Craig. Otherwise this thread is drifting too far from the original premise.

Yes or No to the follow:

1. Was he advocating vigilantism?
2. Bear attacks are rare?
3. There is no reason to be afraid of bears (in bear country)?

Those are the three examples I put forth above. What exactly do you disagree with there?

 

[TomJ]

The OP was asking for opinions on woods guns. Given that OC-Trainer acknowledges the ammo recommendations in that article are on point and that was what the OP was asking for, the other issues OC-Trainer are raising are not relevant to this thread. Maybe we can give the OP the courtesy of staying on point before this thread gets shut down without him getting the information he's looking for.

 

[OC-Trainer]

The OP was asking for opinions on woods guns. Given that OC-Trainer acknowledges the ammo recommendations in that article are on point and that was what the OP was asking for, the other issues OC-Trainer are raising are not relevant to this thread. Maybe we can give the OP the courtesy of staying on point before this thread gets shut down without him getting the information he's looking for.

That's funny, Tom. You were one of three people to ask me to elaborate

Guess you didn't like the rest of what I pointed out.

 

[Propforce]

THANK YOU! ALL OF YOU for your responses. Many posters corrected me to first identify the "woods" I'll be in and then armed appropriately. I think this is a right approach. I think I have too many "hypothetical scenarios" running through my minds thus making my decision difficult in trying to have a "one gun handles all" case. Some of you also gave me very specific choice of your firearm with bullet weights & muzzle velocity as a reference. This is helpful to me as my caliber of preference maybe different but I can understand the equivalent "terminal performance" needed for a specific threat.

Please keep this coming. You are not just helping me but also helping many others who have similar questions.

 

[Propforce]

OP,

Attached is a link to an article from Buffalo Bore's web site that may answer your question.

Tom

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=108

Thanks Tom. Great info.

Copied & pasted from the link above

BLACK BEARS

➤ Black bears are very different mentally, than grizzly bears. Black bears come in red, brown, blonde, and black color phases, but they are all black bear species and should be considered “black bears” regardless of color phase. While black bears have much the same physical qualities (normally smaller) of grizzly bears, they GENERALLY have a much different mindset.

➤ To stop black bears, all you have to do is hurt them; you do not need to kill them. Almost any center fire handgun cartridge will dissuade a black bear if you hit them well with it. The more powerful the cartridge, the more damage you’ll potentially do to the bear, but nearly any black bear will turn tail if he is hit with a cartridge such as good stiff 9mm loads. I know this argues against prevailing wisdom, but prevailing wisdom is based mostly on speculation, not real world experience and is not really wisdom.

We make “Bear Loads” in Smaller Chamberings such as the following:

★ (Item 24F) -- 9MM +P+ PENETRATOR
★ (Item 24L) -- 9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN
★ (Item 20H) -- 38 SPL +P OUTDOORSMAN
★ (Item 19A) -- HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN
★ (Item 23F) -- 40 S&W OUTDOORTSMAN Std Pressure Low Flash
★ (Item 21C) -- HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN

Hmmm... It would take a seriously strong faith to go up against a black bear with my j-frame 38 SPCL+P

 

[Propforce]

Folks from the concrete jungles tend to favor service autos chambered in self defense cartridges. I don't. I've been hunting with handguns since childhood and prefer something that is capable of either taking game or defending against would-be predators. I also don't limit myself to 15yds. With that in mind, I arbitrarily dismiss the service auto for field use, save for a nice and accurate adjustable sighted 1911. Folks can tout the "firepower" of the Glock 20 all they want but they lack the precision I prefer. For me, a proper wilderness companion is a medium to large frame revolver with a minimum 4" barrel, chambering at least the .357Mag but a big bore would be preferred. Here is where I like the .38-40 (180-200gr), the .41Mag (~215gr), the .44Spl, .44Mag and .45Colt (~240-260gr). All loaded with cast bullets 1000-1200fps. These loads are more than capable of taking game up to elk and any black bear that walks.

If I'm in a place where a run-in with a big brown bear is possible, then I simply go up in bullet weight. Here is where a 330-360gr .44/.45 really shines. Contrary to popular belief, rifles are not more capable, they simply have more range and are easier to hit with. Also contrary to popular belief, shotgun slugs would be my absolute last choice.

Thank you, Craig. I appreciate your personal experience.

This is a good general guide for medium to heavy caliber and bullet weights carry.

 

[ROCK6]

Interesting discussion and yes, the type of outdoors and associated activities play a big role. We do a lot of backpacking and the only area I'll typically carry hard-cast for my semi-auto is the Cohutta National Forest as it does have a pretty large black bear population. For most other areas, I'm quite confident with a compact 9mm. Having lived in the southeast for the past several years, the biggest threats have been from dogs and worse, dog packs. All our bear encounters were anticlimactic and we were fortunate to have seen them to begin with. Having grown up in WA State where I did a lot of fly fishing in the mountains and bow hunting, the worst threat was always mountain lions. I've had a couple of encounters and those are the only creatures who truly make my hair stand on end.

As most outdoorsmen will likely admit, the biggest threats are often the weather, mechanical injuries or the damned arthropod assaults (in the PNW it was mosquitos, down here in GA, it's been ticks)! Oftentimes, just good situational awareness, proper planning (for the weather conditions), and making smart decisions are more valuable than a firearm.

I do typically switch to hard-cast ammo for my outdoors guns as they would likely be just as effective against a dog, hog or human threat; over penetration is less of a concern. I do like the 200gr. hard-cast for my .40 S&W and the 147gr. for my 9mm. I'm using Buffalobore's offerings since I get their listed velocities in handguns and they are equally accurate for my needs.

ROCK6

 

[22-rimfire]

My Dad told me about an experience he had in the PA mountains on one of his favorite day hikes and not far from home. As anyone who tramps around Penn's Woods knows, the black bear population has really increased and they were spreading out from their traditional range. Some black bears get quite large in PA. He and wife were walking out of the woods on a dirt road to where they had parked. The area has a lot of old rail beds at different levels that run along topography and he was either walking on the dirt road or one of these old over grown rail beds. It had gotten dark and he could smell bears and hear them close by but could not see them. I doubt he had a flash light with him. They were keeping up with them. Some would call that stalking. Anyway, nothing bad happened but my Dad was wishing he had a gun with him as he was extremely nervous. This was the only time in his entire life that he had this experience with black bears.

This is a classic event where having a handgun with you would certainly have provided some comfort. Mostly that's what guns do in the woods if you aren't hunting. Dad did not own a handgun.

Growing up I never shot a handgun until I was in college. It wasn't long after I turned 21 and out of college that I purchased a handgun for myself.

 

[Hokkmike]

I have encountered several "dangerous" animals in the woods. The black bear run away from me while the coyotes flash by and are gone in a second. the two that concerned me most, an obviously rabid racoon and fox, the latter which I had to dispatch as it came after me, could be easily taken care of by a medium caliber handgun - maybe even the .22. (But, I wanted the fox to stop immediately. Which it did as I nailed it with my deer rifle) I would feel fine with a .327 and up. My EDC is a .380 but this is about a "woods gun"... in a different part of the country I might up my minimum to .44 magnum. I consider that to be the least powerful handgun suitable for bigger animals like bear.

 

[Armored farmer]

I spent a big part of yesterday reading what everyone think a good carry handgun in the woods. It's what I do to "rationalize" that I need another gun. Obviously the recommendations were all over the place from 22LR to 500S&W, most posters have obviously never been to the woods let alone encountering hostile animals. A few experienced posters gave great advices but obviously we are all biased by our own personal experience and sometime a lack of clarity. For example, 10 mm Glock and 357 magnum are most often recommended but many do not mention the bullet selection and why comparable bullets in another caliber can perform the same function with similar results?

So I am thinking if there is an "objective" & "quantifiable" criteria (in a gun forum?) that you will recommend as "minimum" carrying gun in the woods? Everyone like to use bears as ultimate challenge in the woods so let's assume that is the criteria. (2-legged varmints with pink soft flesh are much easier). I live in the SE so only black bears and they are not that big (< 200 lbm). What "minimum" bullet weight and muzzle velocity will you recommend as a carry gun?

Is it a 360 gr bullet at MV ~ 1,000 fps? 1,400 fps?
255 gr bullet at MV ~ 1,000 fps?
200 gr bullet at MV ~ 1,000 fps? 1,200 fps? 1,400 fps?
180 gr bullet at MV ~ 1,100 fps?
How about 147 gr bullet at MV ~ 1,100 fps?

What is "adequate" against black bears? Please specify what size black bear in your experience.

Some examples I pulled from Buffalo Bore and Double Tap:

9mm+P
9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN 147 gr. Hard Cast FN 1,100 fps (BB)
9mm+P 147gr FMJ Flat Point Ballistics : 147gr @ 1135fps / 421ft. lbs. from a G17. Glock 19 velocity - 1120fps. (DT)

40 S&W
40 S&W OUTDOORSMAN Std Pressure Low Flash 200 gr. HC-FN (1,000 fps) (BB)
40 S&W 200gr. Hardcast Solid™ Ballistics : 200gr. @ 1050fps / 490 ft/lbs- Glock 23 (4.0"bbl), Glock 22 4.5" bbl - 1106fps, Glock 27 3.5" bbl - 1009fps (DT)

45 ACP
45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN Ammo - 255 gr. Hard Cast FN (925 fps/M.E. 484 ft. lbs.) (BB)
45ACP+P 255gr. SWC Hardcast. Ballistics : 875fps - 434 ft./lbs. - 5" bbl. (DT)

357 Magnum
HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN 180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps from 4 inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun (BB)
357 Magnum 180gr Hardcast Solid™ Bullet: 180gr. Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast, Velocity: 1300fps / 4" Ruger GP-100 muzzle, 1420fps / 6"bbl S&W 686, Muzzle Energy: 676 ft. lbs. 557ft lbs at 50yds from a 4" bbl (DT)

10mm
HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.) (BB)
10mm 230gr. WFNGC Hardcast, Ballistics : 1120fps/ 641 ft./lbs. - Glock 20, 1008fps / 519 ft lbs 100yds Glock 20, Glock 29 - 1075fps (DT)

44 Magnum
Lower Recoil .44 Magnum Ammo - 240 gr. JHP (1,350 fps/M.E. 971 ft. lbs.) (BB)
44 Magnum 240gr Bonded Hunter, Velocity: 1500fps / 7.5" bbl (DT)

Heavy 44 Magnum
Heavy .44 Magnum Ammo - 300 gr. JFN(1,300fps/M.E.1,126 ft.lbs.) 1334 fps -- Ruger Redhawk 5.5 inch barrel (BB)
44 Magnum 300gr.Nosler JHP, Ballistics : 1325fps - 1161 ft./lbs. - 7.5" bbl., 1255fps from a 6" Colt Anaconda, 1115fps from a 2.5" Ruger Alaskan (DT)

What a great thread, with good ideas and good info.

I have spent most of my 53 years outdoors working or playing. The only time I have ever been hurt by an animal was by the ones that I was riding or trying to castrate.
My closest coyote encounter was when my youngest and I were set up with our predator call overlooking the little River that cuts through our property. We had a coyote run past us from behind literally at arms length. He tiptoed across the river on a log jam, and was gone in a flash. All we had time to do was look at each other and laugh.

My criteria for a woods gun (for my area) is one that is easy to carry, fun to shoot, or that I need practice with. Like my edc gun.
My woods walks often wind up on a high bluff shooting targets of opportunity for fun. (.22) (.380)(.45acp) (9mm)