Quantifiable Criteria for a "Woods" gun?
- Thread starter Propforce
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Well, so much for your request. There are a couple of members here who while very knowledgeable will argue with a fence post just to prove they are right and others are wrong. Sorry for the destruction of your thread.
Well, things calmed down somewhat after 3 days of silence so I'd say the folks respected my request <fingers crossed >.
I respect everyone's experience & knowledge, but really appreciate when sometimes folks can just agree to disagree.
DS,
1,000 pounds of mad.... I hope they don't attack your vehicles. That would be quite a repair bill.
Dog Soldier
member
Propforce, They come through glass sliding doors. As you mention they beat the modern car bodies up. They think dogs are wolves, not good. We keep a short barreled Mdl 97 loaded with LEE Key slugs by the shop door.
RPRNY
Member
DS,
I like your "1,000 lbs of mad" moniker!
I have friends in Jackson that regularly have yard moose. They got a Daisy BB gun and thought a shot or two would annoy the moose "and get it to move on". Needless to say they were dismayed when the first moose they tried it on registered absolutely no sign that it was aware they were shooting it!
Nice folks but I think there's something in the water in that part of Teton County...Your approach seems eminently more sensible.
I like your "1,000 lbs of mad" moniker!
I have friends in Jackson that regularly have yard moose. They got a Daisy BB gun and thought a shot or two would annoy the moose "and get it to move on". Needless to say they were dismayed when the first moose they tried it on registered absolutely no sign that it was aware they were shooting it!
Nice folks but I think there's something in the water in that part of Teton County...Your approach seems eminently more sensible.
CPLofMARINES
Member
Glock 20
15+1 , near or equal to .41 Magnum. Drop in a 6" barrel for more
fun.
15+1 , near or equal to .41 Magnum. Drop in a 6" barrel for more
fun.
Dog Soldier
member
Yes, Teton Co. "Moscow on the Snake River",. The Hollywood elite.
I doubt shooting a Moose with your trusty Red Ryder Range Carbine would have any effect. They are the most dangerous critters to encounter. The Game & Fish removed 18 head from around my place. They were endangering school kids at the bus stop.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Sorry but no. This is a popular narrative by 10mm fans but this is only true if you're comparing low end factory .41Mag loads to high end 10mm loads. I don't k now how an yone convinces themselves this is true. Both operate at similar presrsure, 36,000psi vs 37,500psi but the .41 has considerably greater powder capacity AND is compatible with slower burning powders that yield much more velocity than those used in the 10mm. The 10 tops out with a 230gr at 1100fps whereas the .41Mag gets the same weight bullet to 1450fps, a 265gr to 1350fps or a 300gr to 1250fps. That's a significant difference.
Dog Soldier
member
Thanks for putting the 10 MM into it's proper place. It is an excellent cartridge. It is not comparable to the ballistics of the .41 Magnum. There is a "Significant difference".
As a fan/owner/loader of both 10mm and .41 magnum, I agree with CraigC's comment.
I think this line of thinking got started because the law enforcement/personal defense .41 magnum rounds (which are, and should be, far less stout than .41 mag hunting or silhouette rounds) generally do overlap with 10mm performance (or vice-versa). Since both are at (or slightly above) the upper limits of what can reasonably be managed by most humans in terms of rapid, repeated, accurate fire (important for SD and LE use), the fact that .41 magnum still has a bunch of "headroom" left isn't relevant from a SD or LE perspective.
From the perspective of a hunter or a ballistician or a recoil junky, that extra "headroom" is materially different.
I think this line of thinking got started because the law enforcement/personal defense .41 magnum rounds (which are, and should be, far less stout than .41 mag hunting or silhouette rounds) generally do overlap with 10mm performance (or vice-versa). Since both are at (or slightly above) the upper limits of what can reasonably be managed by most humans in terms of rapid, repeated, accurate fire (important for SD and LE use), the fact that .41 magnum still has a bunch of "headroom" left isn't relevant from a SD or LE perspective.
From the perspective of a hunter or a ballistician or a recoil junky, that extra "headroom" is materially different.
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CPLofMARINES
Member
Sorry, I should have been more clear. Near or equal to
SOME .41 Mag loads. I'll still take my G20 in the woods
SOME .41 Mag loads. I'll still take my G20 in the woods
.45cultist
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As has been said, it depends on what critters are around. If there aren't bears the size of an SUV, a .357 with a variety of loads and some HKS speed loaders can do a lot. Large or two legged predators would make me pack a long gun and vary my sidearm load to help me reach it.
Good food for thought on this thread...
What others have said...what is the threat profile? Also, I believe a handgun is for fighting to get to your rifle or something you can have on you always just in case the rifle is back at camp.
Where I spend my time in the woods, we have Black Bears moving into the area...300 - 400 lbs are the biggest ones we've seen or seen dead, we also have locals who may or may not pose a threat...2 legged variety. The bears don't generally bother people, but running into one on the trail to the hunting stand or back at dusk could be an issue, so for me and my likely threat scenario, I want a suitable rifle and a handgun with sufficient power to deal with this threat and any potential threat from humans.
So, I carry a 7mm-08 Bolt Action Rifle with suitable 139 gr handloads when hunting and a short barreled 44 Magnum single action pistol always, that I can shoot well under pressure. The 44 is loaded with handloads with a 240 grain hard cast bullet moving at 1,000 to 1,100 fps.
I used to carry a 44 Special double action, loaded with 200 grain Gold Dots. No more...
On occasion, I will carry a 22 for small game and plinking, but have found that the 44 Magnum when suitably loaded can do it all, so that is my woods handgun of choice.
What others have said...what is the threat profile? Also, I believe a handgun is for fighting to get to your rifle or something you can have on you always just in case the rifle is back at camp.
Where I spend my time in the woods, we have Black Bears moving into the area...300 - 400 lbs are the biggest ones we've seen or seen dead, we also have locals who may or may not pose a threat...2 legged variety. The bears don't generally bother people, but running into one on the trail to the hunting stand or back at dusk could be an issue, so for me and my likely threat scenario, I want a suitable rifle and a handgun with sufficient power to deal with this threat and any potential threat from humans.
So, I carry a 7mm-08 Bolt Action Rifle with suitable 139 gr handloads when hunting and a short barreled 44 Magnum single action pistol always, that I can shoot well under pressure. The 44 is loaded with handloads with a 240 grain hard cast bullet moving at 1,000 to 1,100 fps.
I used to carry a 44 Special double action, loaded with 200 grain Gold Dots. No more...
On occasion, I will carry a 22 for small game and plinking, but have found that the 44 Magnum when suitably loaded can do it all, so that is my woods handgun of choice.
MTMilitiaman
Member
Yeah, more comparable to semi-auto .357 Magnum than .41 Magnum.
Ca survivor
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when I used to hunt an S&W Mountain revolver in .44 Mag, later years hunting for wild board here in Florida a Glock 20, 10mm.
Edcnh
Member
As others have stated it depends on what part of the country you are talking about. I live in northern NH and carry a 357 S & W with a 4" barrel when in the woods. As for bears I have ran into them a few times and take the advice I once got from a game warden more than thirty years ago. I yell loudly at the bear and have never had one not back off. I also have my hand on my 357 just in case. I have scared bears out of my yard by yelling at them. Black bears, at least in my experience, are not looking for a confrontation. That same game warden told me that the bear is much more afraid of humans than most people believe.
OC-Trainer
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I am glad that technique has worked for you, but be advised that it doesn't always work. Keeping the 357 in hand is very wise.
Take a look a this very recent video. (This is the Rated G version, THR friendly) This man was extraordinarily lucky.
Just something to be mindful of...
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Trey Veston
Member
I hike and camp in North Idaho where we have wolves, cougars, black bear, moose, and the occasional grizzly. My two woods guns are a Glock G29 10mm compact with the extended 15rd G20 magazine and a Ruger Blackhawk Bisley in .45 Colt with a 5.5" barrel. Bear loads are 300gr hard cast in the BH and 190gr hard cast in the Glock.
But, I've never felt threatened by any animal in 40 years of hiking in the woods. Maybe a free range cow that didn't want to get off the trail... I know the limitations of the 10mm, but I'd rather have 15rds to stop a threat than six.
But, I've never felt threatened by any animal in 40 years of hiking in the woods. Maybe a free range cow that didn't want to get off the trail... I know the limitations of the 10mm, but I'd rather have 15rds to stop a threat than six.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
You may be counting on a follow-up shot you may not get. I think it's a bad idea to rely on capacity. IMHO, too many use the same logic for both critter defense in the wilderness and self defense in the urban jungle. Different purposes require different tools. You wouldn't want to face a charging Cape buffalo with an AK47 any more than you'd want to clear a crack house with a .500 double rifle.
Trey Veston
Member
I can get 4 shots off of 10mm in the time it takes to get two shots off with a single-action. I shoot my 10mm in GSSF and am much more proficient with it than with my BH. Based on decades of actual time in the wilderness, I am comfortable with my choice.
First, has to be a revolver. Poisonous snakes
are a very likely possibility, so you probably want
a couple chambers of ratshot on hand. Otherwise,
you are stuck with only one ratshot in the pipe, with
an auto-loader.
Now while I'd prefer either .44 MAG or .357, you have
many choices available to you.
are a very likely possibility, so you probably want
a couple chambers of ratshot on hand. Otherwise,
you are stuck with only one ratshot in the pipe, with
an auto-loader.
Now while I'd prefer either .44 MAG or .357, you have
many choices available to you.
You are generalizing. With one practice session we had a group of guys able to run a whole cylinder of full-tilt .454 Casull (300 grain bullets at 1,600 fps +) through my FA 83, in seconds with reasonable accuracy. I was able to do it in under 3 seconds. It just takes practice.
Vern Humphrey
Member
What is the gun FOR?
If you are carrying it for small game, then a .22 is ideal, although a .38 Special or a 357 with light .38 Special loads also makes a nice small game gun.
If you are carrying it for defense against two-legged critters, you everyday carry gun is fine.
If you're carrying it for hunting large game -- deer, for example -- then a .44 Mag or .45 Colt is ideal.
If you are carrying it for small game, then a .22 is ideal, although a .38 Special or a 357 with light .38 Special loads also makes a nice small game gun.
If you are carrying it for defense against two-legged critters, you everyday carry gun is fine.
If you're carrying it for hunting large game -- deer, for example -- then a .44 Mag or .45 Colt is ideal.
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