Question for any Vets on target shooting
- Thread starter Gouranga
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I served during the Vietnam war and we only fired 100 rounds a year for qual. Sadly our politicians would rather spend billions on star wars missiles and stealth aircraft than spend money for small arms ammo for practice and qualification. They do not believe that wars are going to be won by the guys down in the dirt and so the individual soldier is at the very bottom of their list. Currently our country is not even able to produce enough small arms ammo for our military so we depend on countries like Israel and South Korea. We only have ONE Govt. operated plant (Lake City) to produce ammo and they have been unable to meet the demand since the early 90s. So if Israel or South Korea are attacked we will have a problem. But we'll have F 22s.
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USMC 82-87
One week live fire every year prior to Qual. Was a range coach for about 2 years. got to shoot a little bit more then but not much. Got invited to try out for the 4th Marine Air Wing rifle team but that would mean another reenlistment. I'd had enough.
One week live fire every year prior to Qual. Was a range coach for about 2 years. got to shoot a little bit more then but not much. Got invited to try out for the 4th Marine Air Wing rifle team but that would mean another reenlistment. I'd had enough.
Army regs require ONE record fire qualification per year, however, trigger time largely depends on the unit / MOS.
Different missions, different unit standards.
Some organizations and duty assignments have members that fire more rounds in one year than most will fire in a 20 year career, but you have to volunteer and EARN those assignments.
Different missions, different unit standards.
Some organizations and duty assignments have members that fire more rounds in one year than most will fire in a 20 year career, but you have to volunteer and EARN those assignments.
cesarv
Member
US Navy, every 6 months with M9, M16, and M500.
I got to shoot more often because some of the GM's were my buddies and I would help them do the maintenance in the armory. I got to shoot maybe every month.
I got to shoot more often because some of the GM's were my buddies and I would help them do the maintenance in the armory. I got to shoot maybe every month.
USMC Recon 2008-now
As far as rounds fired and different weapons trained with we're probably the 3rd heaviest shooters in the Marine Corps under Force Recon Company (same unit, different budget) and MARSOC (USMC SOCOM unit)
I'm at the end of my first deployment right now, but so far it's been:
Annual rifle qualification
2 CQB shooting packages during a 7 month work-up (1500-2000 rds ea.)
3 or so less structured shoots (live fire maneuvering, ambush and evasion drills, another 1500 altogether)
1 pistol range (maybe 300 rounds ea.)
We do a lot of dry CQB drills as well.
On top of that, we've done a couple heavy gun ranges where we all shoot M240's, 203's M2's, MK19's and AT-4's. 1,000 7.62, 25rds for M203, 500 .50cal, 80 MK19 rds. per guy approximately.
Plus a few ranges during the little time we had off this deployment. M4's, and heavy guns, mostly to function check and re-zero. Snipers shoot their babies as well.
I was lucky enough to wind up with a gun I'd never touched before; the M14 (oh, how I love it now).
We shoot a lot more than other units, but not as much as we'd like to. Many MOS's simply don't need a lot of weapons training. Plus, weapons training isn't everything. In my experience maneuvering and coordinating air/artillery support is much more useful than being a good shot on the target range.
As far as rounds fired and different weapons trained with we're probably the 3rd heaviest shooters in the Marine Corps under Force Recon Company (same unit, different budget) and MARSOC (USMC SOCOM unit)
I'm at the end of my first deployment right now, but so far it's been:
Annual rifle qualification
2 CQB shooting packages during a 7 month work-up (1500-2000 rds ea.)
3 or so less structured shoots (live fire maneuvering, ambush and evasion drills, another 1500 altogether)
1 pistol range (maybe 300 rounds ea.)
We do a lot of dry CQB drills as well.
On top of that, we've done a couple heavy gun ranges where we all shoot M240's, 203's M2's, MK19's and AT-4's. 1,000 7.62, 25rds for M203, 500 .50cal, 80 MK19 rds. per guy approximately.
Plus a few ranges during the little time we had off this deployment. M4's, and heavy guns, mostly to function check and re-zero. Snipers shoot their babies as well.
I was lucky enough to wind up with a gun I'd never touched before; the M14 (oh, how I love it now).
We shoot a lot more than other units, but not as much as we'd like to. Many MOS's simply don't need a lot of weapons training. Plus, weapons training isn't everything. In my experience maneuvering and coordinating air/artillery support is much more useful than being a good shot on the target range.
dodge
Member
U.S. Army '72-'76. Mechanic/driver. After basic never got got re-qualify again. Once while stationed in Europe we had to truck the WAC's out so they could qualify at which time I got to shot some rounds but that was it. At that time they wasn't required to qualify in basic. Had a staged alert one time and was given a M16 to walk the perimeter of the base. No ammo issued though. Officer of the day stopped me and asked me what I would do if a person stopped on the street and started to unload bombs/weapons to which I answered I would probably run away as I had no ammo to which I could shot the person/persons doing the deed. To this day still get a chuckle of the expression on his face when I said that. When stationed stateside I was with a MP battalion and got assigned to be a 50 machine gunner on a APC. I had only shot a 50 once with about 100 rounds. If it had become necessary to get deployed in that assignment I wouldn't have known what to do to the 50 if it had jammed.
I qualified with the M-16 Jan 69 in USAF Basic. With 38 revolver while in OTS in June of that year. Then in the following 10 years of active duty, never fired another shot. Got back in reserves and qualified twice with the M-9 twice in 7 years.
I probably fire as much in a couple of range trips as I do in my entire military service.
I probably fire as much in a couple of range trips as I do in my entire military service.
mljdeckard
Member
In Armor and MI I have seen about the same result. You go to the range, once a year, twice if you are lucky, and they try to make up for it with a couple of days of movement under fire and CQB training when you deploy.
I have told many people, the army is not a great place to get to shoot a lot. It's better if you are in a door-kicking niche, but for most of the army, (and all institutions, to be honest,) range time is a nuisance that takes time and budget away from other things they want to do, and they resist going at all.
I have told many people, the army is not a great place to get to shoot a lot. It's better if you are in a door-kicking niche, but for most of the army, (and all institutions, to be honest,) range time is a nuisance that takes time and budget away from other things they want to do, and they resist going at all.
Gouranga
Member
Alright guys. I would say I am surprised but not so much. As for round fired, the average guy at the range probably does more than your average solider does as part of his/her job.
So my second question tied to this, along with the live rounds, what other training would you say you have gotten that would really push you above and beyond a civilian who has never served?
I guess what I am curious about over all, we send y'all out to fight for us. Would you say when dropped into a battlefield that in terms of your use of firearms and tactics, that you are superiorly prepared in contrast to your enemies?
Would you hold firearms training as a serious part of that preparedness for a battlefield, or other areas of training/readiness?
So my second question tied to this, along with the live rounds, what other training would you say you have gotten that would really push you above and beyond a civilian who has never served?
I guess what I am curious about over all, we send y'all out to fight for us. Would you say when dropped into a battlefield that in terms of your use of firearms and tactics, that you are superiorly prepared in contrast to your enemies?
Would you hold firearms training as a serious part of that preparedness for a battlefield, or other areas of training/readiness?
FLAvalanche
Member
Marine Corps 1992-1999
Usually qualification is once a year. There are some things that change that.
I was in AAVs (Amphibious Assault Vehicles) and while on our own we qualed once a year. If we were assigned to a Marine Expeditionary Unit for a deployment usually we had to qual with that MEU again, usually so the MEU can get SOC (Special Operations Capable) qualified.
We also have billets that don't require requalification. For instance I was assigned to the Amphibious Vehicle Test Branch for my last 3 years and I wasn't required to requalify.
Also, once you qualify Expert a certain number of times you don't have to requal. I can't remember if it's 3 or 4 times. I was 4th award Expert and I didn't have to requal. I did have the option of doing the PET course which I never did.
We also had to kinda qualify with the guns on our vehicle. We had a coax M2 .50 cal and MK19 grenade launcher.
I can go all day listing other training we get, especially in a combat MOS that puts us lightyears beyond a civialian. Just what we do at a single qualification week is beyond what a civialian will ever do at a range in a week. Your average civilian probably isn't going to shoot past 200 yards let alone out to 500. They aren't going to have a night fire, they aren't going to have a gas mask relay and those types of things.
MOUT / Urban Warfare Training, basic to advanced tactics depending on your MOS, training on different weapons, usually when we deployed we did training with other countries and usually got the oppertunity to cross train with their weapons.
On one deployment my vehicle had the litter kit installed and the corpsman rode on my vehicle so we had more advanced 1st aid training. On another deployment my vehicle had a line charge kit installed for mine clearing so we cross trained with the engineers on our vehicle and with the M1 tank with the mine plow. We had a little extra training with EOD in case we had a dud rocket and the line of C4 landed on top of our vehicle or the vehicle in front of us which was usually an M1 or another AAV/.
And all this training isn't just a three day class and you never use those skills again. It's done over and over to the point where it becomes reflex.
Usually qualification is once a year. There are some things that change that.
I was in AAVs (Amphibious Assault Vehicles) and while on our own we qualed once a year. If we were assigned to a Marine Expeditionary Unit for a deployment usually we had to qual with that MEU again, usually so the MEU can get SOC (Special Operations Capable) qualified.
We also have billets that don't require requalification. For instance I was assigned to the Amphibious Vehicle Test Branch for my last 3 years and I wasn't required to requalify.
Also, once you qualify Expert a certain number of times you don't have to requal. I can't remember if it's 3 or 4 times. I was 4th award Expert and I didn't have to requal. I did have the option of doing the PET course which I never did.
We also had to kinda qualify with the guns on our vehicle. We had a coax M2 .50 cal and MK19 grenade launcher.
I can go all day listing other training we get, especially in a combat MOS that puts us lightyears beyond a civialian. Just what we do at a single qualification week is beyond what a civialian will ever do at a range in a week. Your average civilian probably isn't going to shoot past 200 yards let alone out to 500. They aren't going to have a night fire, they aren't going to have a gas mask relay and those types of things.
MOUT / Urban Warfare Training, basic to advanced tactics depending on your MOS, training on different weapons, usually when we deployed we did training with other countries and usually got the oppertunity to cross train with their weapons.
On one deployment my vehicle had the litter kit installed and the corpsman rode on my vehicle so we had more advanced 1st aid training. On another deployment my vehicle had a line charge kit installed for mine clearing so we cross trained with the engineers on our vehicle and with the M1 tank with the mine plow. We had a little extra training with EOD in case we had a dud rocket and the line of C4 landed on top of our vehicle or the vehicle in front of us which was usually an M1 or another AAV/.
And all this training isn't just a three day class and you never use those skills again. It's done over and over to the point where it becomes reflex.
Gouranga
Member
That's good to hear FLAvalanche. As is obvious, I have never served but I am forever great full to those of you who have. I have friends who have served in USAF (as a MP), Army (infantry), and Navy (Cryptography). I have heard a lot of their stories. As I did from my grandfather who served under Patton.
I am glad to see for my own sake and others, the scope of training. i have run into a lot of folks who think it is just basic and then you just march around for 4 years. While I will argue with them, I have little to no info to back it up. That is good stuff man. I appreciate it.
I am glad to see for my own sake and others, the scope of training. i have run into a lot of folks who think it is just basic and then you just march around for 4 years. While I will argue with them, I have little to no info to back it up. That is good stuff man. I appreciate it.
As I said in my previous post, the weapons training doesn't make for good war-fighters on its own. Maneuvering and combined arms practice is much more useful.
During Stateside training I did a lot of dry CQB, patrolling, and surveillance. We also did some live animal medical training. I've certainly done lots of patrolling here in Afghanistan, but not so much of the other two.
Deploying has done more than training could ever have. It has broken a lot of pre-conceptions that I came here with about combat and things like mission planning.
As a recon unit we work extremely hard without the glory associated with special forces. We don't make good money, nor do we get as good of training as the spec ops guys but no civillian can pay any amount of money and get what we have now. It's not something you can buy.
During Stateside training I did a lot of dry CQB, patrolling, and surveillance. We also did some live animal medical training. I've certainly done lots of patrolling here in Afghanistan, but not so much of the other two.
Deploying has done more than training could ever have. It has broken a lot of pre-conceptions that I came here with about combat and things like mission planning.
As a recon unit we work extremely hard without the glory associated with special forces. We don't make good money, nor do we get as good of training as the spec ops guys but no civillian can pay any amount of money and get what we have now. It's not something you can buy.
i was in the af and thought it was ridiculas that we got one day in basic and after that had to qualify once per year. after this i guess that is normal, i find this to be troubling though. just think one less mx missle and their would have been plenty of more ammo to practice with, at least for those units that would benefit from it the most. i was med supply so my unit probably wouldn't have qualified. a friend of mine was in the romanian army, in a support unit, and he told me he got 3rds per year.
It has happened a couple times. I was at a show where a non-injury AD occurred. It was quite startling when a high powered rifle went off in the convention center exhibition hall.
Ask her if she rides in cars on the street. I think about 40,000 people were killed doing that last year making driving far more dangerous than being at a gun show.
Sorry, I doubt your assertion that she is not anti-gun. Her hysterical reaction to very rare, isolated cases of accidental death and injury tell me she is indeed hoplophobic.
Ask her if she rides in cars on the street. I think about 40,000 people were killed doing that last year making driving far more dangerous than being at a gun show.
Sorry, I doubt your assertion that she is not anti-gun. Her hysterical reaction to very rare, isolated cases of accidental death and injury tell me she is indeed hoplophobic.
mljdeckard
Member
The advantage I had was that I had shot before a little bit. I wasn't even a GREAT shot. But remember, you are learning next to guys with limited or absolutely no prior experience. They are doing it all for the first time. I never had to feel like I was being rushed and yelled at to learn something completely new, they did.
The bad guys I am facing? No, their marksmanship is the least of my worries. My little brother trained some Iraqi Army on his trip out here, and they (I'm being totally serious here,) didn't even know what the sights were.
The bad guys I am facing? No, their marksmanship is the least of my worries. My little brother trained some Iraqi Army on his trip out here, and they (I'm being totally serious here,) didn't even know what the sights were.
doc2rn
Member
8404 from '93-'00 with 2nd MARDIV depending on theater was shooting anywhere from 15to 500 rds per week with quals every three months.
In a job that drew weapons from the armory for every single shift we worked, the lack of any actual live fire "training" or regular practice was amazing. 
Never heard anything at any of the three bases I was stationed at beyond basic about it being a funding or availability issue, they just didn't care.
We could have had it worse, one day at a large British firing range base where we were doing the M60, our captain got to talking with a group of Brits "training" on a range next to ours during a break. He came back a few minutes later & told some of the guys to tote a couple cases of our .308 ammunition over to them.
We had plenty, they had 8 rounds per man to work with.
Denis
Never heard anything at any of the three bases I was stationed at beyond basic about it being a funding or availability issue, they just didn't care.
We could have had it worse, one day at a large British firing range base where we were doing the M60, our captain got to talking with a group of Brits "training" on a range next to ours during a break. He came back a few minutes later & told some of the guys to tote a couple cases of our .308 ammunition over to them.
We had plenty, they had 8 rounds per man to work with.
Denis
FLAvalanche
Member
Being in Amtracs and deploying numerous times, I've had the oppertunity to work with just about every unit and Spec Op group you can think of and Recon was always my favorite.
You guys never bitched, complained or whinned and you always got the job done.
Most spec op units think their turds don't stink and usually don't like it when we told them otherwise. They never did like the fact that preferrential treatment went out the window the instant you set foot on my hawg and when you're on it, I run the show.
Something else to consider is that probably at least 80% of the US military serves in a non-combatant role.
As such, those whose job doesn't involve shooting (with the exception of the Marine Corps) are not considered necessary to expose to much shooting.
Denis
As such, those whose job doesn't involve shooting (with the exception of the Marine Corps) are not considered necessary to expose to much shooting.
Denis
possum
Member
I am In the US Army Infantry, we do go and qual several times a year, probaly 4-6 on average, however it is always (for the last 3 years) on Tunnel C targets (which is the scaled down targets on a single sheet at 25 meters).
While in Iraq this last time( my third) i had an awesome commander, and chain of command in general, and i would come up with the planes, and we would go to the range and shoot a lot. (and no i was not just zero and qual, which seems to be the only "shooting" that the Army thinks that there is). I taught the soldiers in my PLT many things that i had learned from not only personal experience, but also many training courses in the civilian side as well.
This is one of the many reasons that i own an AR type rifle, and that i attend training courses, and shoot so much out of pocket every year.
While in Iraq this last time( my third) i had an awesome commander, and chain of command in general, and i would come up with the planes, and we would go to the range and shoot a lot. (and no i was not just zero and qual, which seems to be the only "shooting" that the Army thinks that there is). I taught the soldiers in my PLT many things that i had learned from not only personal experience, but also many training courses in the civilian side as well.
This is one of the many reasons that i own an AR type rifle, and that i attend training courses, and shoot so much out of pocket every year.
nate_o23
Member
To show you the sad state of affairs in the army, while attached to an infantry battalion we qualified once a quarter on are M16s and various other weapons but we had to attend EO (equal oppertunity) training once a month. This was just a few years ago
U S Navy, VN., every 30 days I had to fire 100 rounds MINIMUM from, M60, M 14, 45, and shotgun. I was on the ships landing force and security force. My have been just my command's policy, but we had the highest rated LF/SF in the fleet.
wgaynor
Member
There are so many other areas of Military training that raises the ability of the soldier above that of the civilian. The biggest one is discipline. Attention to detail, learning to trust in the equipment you are issued, cross training, having a basic understanding of how different weapons and tools work, situational awareness, understanding and implimenting the basics of soldiering aka learning how to be a soldier first regardless of MOS (building hasty fighting positions, preventative maintenance on equipment, and basic combat tactics).
As a Medic, I pulled alot of range duties. Seems like some NCO or Officer was always saying "hey doc, we have some extra ammo/claymores/tracers/grenades/ etc..., want to try it? You can guess my response!
As a Medic, I pulled alot of range duties. Seems like some NCO or Officer was always saying "hey doc, we have some extra ammo/claymores/tracers/grenades/ etc..., want to try it?
You can guess my response!NavyLCDR
member
It depends on your assignments in the Navy. Many Sailors can go 20 years and never qualify or be assigned an M-4 or M-9. If you are in an assignment that requires a gun, it's an annual hands on actual shooting qualification and now, I'll have to look it up to double check, quarterly familiarization which can be with a simulator. It used to be only the annual qualification was required, and that was only for those in the Navy who had need to be issued weapons, which is probably about 20-30%.
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