Questions about carrying without a permit in Utah

[TheOtherOne]

If I'm reading the law right, someone could legally have something like a semi-automatic pistol on them with a full magazine as long as they don't have a round in the chamber?

If this is right, then why not just do alot of practice for quickly loading the weapon and then forget about the hassles of getting a CCW.

But it seems like I asked someone this before (I think it was an old co-worker who finally left and became a cop) and he said no way.



_ _ _76-10-505.__ Carrying loaded firearm in vehicle or on street.

_ _ __ (1)_ Unless otherwise authorized by law, a person may not carry a loaded firearm:
_ _ __ (a)_ in or on a vehicle;
_ _ __ (b)_ on any public street; or
_ _ __ (c)_ in a posted prohibited area.
_ _ __ (2)_ A violation of this section is a class B misdemeanor.


_ _ _76-10-502.__ When weapon deemed loaded.

_ _ __ (1)_ For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
_ _ __ (2)_ Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
_ _ __ (3)_ A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.

 

[Correia]

A better question would be, even though it may be technically legal, is it worth the hassle of getting frisked, cuffed, booked, and have your property confiscated until you can get a lawyer to explain to the jumpy city cops why you are technically correct? Or is it less hassle to just show them your little red CCW card?

This is not even getting into the tactical reasons why carrying chamber empty just plain sucks.

Utah is one of the easiest states when it comes to CCW. I figure if you are going to carry, just go get the CCW and then you are covered.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I've never seen anything in the Second Amendment about loaded versus unloaded or concealed versus openly carried. Maybe I need to reread it, eh?

 

[AZRickD]

Hmmm. Carrying Israeli-style is better than nuthin' at all.

And, yes, Correia, it worth it.

Some of us are made to be activists, and some of us submit to finger prints, background checks and stiff licensing fees.

You can't blame a person for drawing the line there.

Activists are a rare breed. Those who discourage activism are a dime a dozen.

Rick

 

[Matt1911]

AZrickD, Could you please expand on you'r post? I must be taking it wrong,as it came across to me you'r saying anyone who has a ccw,"weenied" out,and are not activists,while the person who breaks the law(even a unjust one)is not a criminal(sp?) but a activist?

 

[Edward429451]

Sounds like what he said to me. \



Edward429451 (no permit.)

 

[BHPshooter]

_ _ _76-10-502.__ When weapon deemed loaded.
_ _ __ (2)_ Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.

Technically, this means I could carry my BHP cocked and locked legally, since the manual operation of any mechanism once (the safety) would NOT cause the cartridge... to be fired.

I find this very interesting, since I'm not old enough for a CCW (another year) and I'm a little paranoid about getting a CCW... but I won't go into that.

If it were me, though, I'd contact a lawyer about it. In fact, one of my neighbors is a lawyer... I'll try and ask him.

Wes

 

[Correia]

If that is your line in the sand, good for you. Seriously. I'm glad that you are an activist.

My point is for practical reasons, be prepared to get hassled by the cops. If you are in rural Utah you most likely won't have a problem. If you are in the city (depending on which one) I can pretty much guarentee that if the police catch you carrying with out a permit then you are going to get hassled, and possibly arrested.

Fact of the matter is, most cops in Utah look at CCW holders as "good guys". If they find you with a gun but no CCW then they are probably going to default to "bad guy". At that point they aren't going to be worried about your 2nd Amendment rights, and you will probably get to eat pavement while you get cuffed.

Utah has one of the highest percentages of CCWs to population in the country. (last I heard). We made a push for Vermont style CCW last year, but were not able to pull it off. However we did push to the point that we now recognize every other state's CCW, which is a huge step in the right direction.

I consider my self an activist too, not a pro-infringement weenie. I'm also trying to be realistic. We are pushing in the right direction, and every one of us that, as you put it "submit to finger prints, background checks and stiff licensing fees." is one more number on the pro-gun side. When we get enough numbers on that pro-gun side then that equals more power in the legislature. And that equals the rolling back of more infrigements.

I honestly believe that the revolution in CCW laws nationwide over the last 10 years is going to be what saves the RKBA. CCW holders are normal everyday folks, and as our numbers increase every fence sitter out there is bound to know at least one of us, and that fence sitter is going to look at us, and know that we are not the crazed rednecks the Brady bunch makes us out to be. It is hard for a fence sitter to swallow BS about the Wild West and Blood in the Streets when they have a cousin and a couple of co-workers who carry guns, and who are totally normal people.

So in this case, I'm glad to be a statistic.

If I had my way the whole country would go to Alaska/Vermont style carry tomorrow. But that ain't going to happen. It took years to get us into this predicament, and it is going to take years for us to get out.

 

[TallPine]

Technically, this means I could carry my BHP cocked and locked legally, since the manual operation of any mechanism once (the safety) would NOT cause the cartridge... to be fired.

Interesting argument ... you gonna argue that one in court?

By that reasoning, a SA revolver with five (or six, if Ruger NM) rounds in the cylinder would not be "loaded" because it has to be cocked (one action) and the trigger pulled (a separate action) in order for it to fire.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Technically, this means I could carry my BHP cocked and locked legally, since the manual operation of any mechanism once (the safety) would NOT cause the cartridge... to be fired.

I thought about that too, but I'm pretty sure that it would still be considered loaded under part 1, "For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position."

Number 2 is probably to cover those revolvers where you can have all but one round out of the cylinder (so there is not one in the "firing position"), but with the hammer down it would still fire with just one pull of the trigger.



Still... check it out before you do anything because I'm not very sure about my interpretation of the law. It could be completely wrong and carrying a gun, even unloaded, might still be illegal? I wouldn't think so though, because then technically anybody without a CCW could not even buy a gun and legally carry it out of the store.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Well, it looks like it's not legal to even carry an unloaded gun. I Did some more searching and found this one:


76-10-504. Carrying concealed dangerous weapon -- Penalties.

(1) Except as provided in Section 76-10-503 and in Subsections (2) and (3):
(a) a person who carries a concealed dangerous weapon, as defined in Section 76-10-501, which is not a firearm on his person or one that is readily accessible for immediate use which is not securely encased*, as defined in this part, in a place other than his residence, property, or business under his control is guilty of a class B misdemeanor; and
(b) a person without a valid concealed firearm permit who carries a concealed dangerous weapon which is a firearm and that contains no ammunition is guilty of a class B misdemeanor, but if the firearm contains ammunition the person is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
(2) A person who carries concealed a sawed-off shotgun or a sawed-off rifle is guilty of a second degree felony.
(3) If the concealed firearm is used in the commission of a violent felony as defined in Section 76-3-203.5, and the person is a party to the offense, the person is guilty of a second degree felony.
(4) Nothing in Subsection (1) shall prohibit a person engaged in the lawful taking of protected or unprotected wildlife as defined in Title 23, Wildlife Resources Code, from carrying a concealed weapon or a concealed firearm with a barrel length of four inches or greater as long as the taking of wildlife does not occur:
(a) within the limits of a municipality in violation of that municipality's ordinances; or
(b) upon the highways of the state as defined in Section 41-6-1.




* 76-10-501. Definitions.

(18) "Securely encased" means not readily accessible for immediate use, such as held in a gun rack, or in a closed case or container, whether or not locked, or in a trunk or other storage area of a motor vehicle, not including a glove box or console box.



And I also guess a CCW holder or even a cop can not legally carry a short barreled shotgun. I saw no exceptions on that one.

 

[JackStraw]

Sure, open carry of a firearm that is in compliance UCA 76-10-502 seems permissible.

However, 76-9-102(1)(a) disorderly conduct states:

" A person is guilty of disorderly conduct if:
he refuses to comply with the lawful order of the police to move from a public place, or knowingly creates a hazardous or physically offensive condition, by any act which serves no legitimate purpose;"

I guarantee that if you go walking down the street with a unloaded firearm in plain view you will be deemed to "knowingly create a physically offensive condition" and will be arrested.

Get a permit if you are going to carry. Then carry concealed. You don't want the bguy to know your armed or he is just going to sneak up behind you and put one in your head first.

Better yet, if your going somewhere you need a gun on your person to protect yourself...DON"T GO!

And if you want to argue the "legitimate purpose defense" we sharks charge 250/hr. Pony up stalwart activist.

There's your "legal opinion."

See I told ya Correia...but I'm still trying to help out.

 

[BHPshooter]

Interesting argument ... you gonna argue that one in court?

Nope.

By that reasoning, a SA revolver with five (or six, if Ruger NM) rounds in the cylinder would not be "loaded" because it has to be cocked (one action) and the trigger pulled (a separate action) in order for it to fire.

Yes, I know, I know... My whole post was tongue in cheek. In my opinion, if there is a bullet in the chamber, it's loaded.

Of course, what this all has to do with the second amendment is what spurred me to make my smartass remark. Forgive me.

Cheers,
Wes