What does 'loaded' mean?

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mljdeckard

mljdeckard

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I'm arguing with a guy at work. He believes that this code means that a revolver must have the chamber under the hammer AND the following chamber unloaded for the gun to be unloaded. I said that the chamber under the hammer is not the firing position because it is impossible to fire it without pulling the hammer back, making the FOLLOWING chamber the one in the firing position. Basically, he is saying that if you don't have a permit, and you want to carry a revolver legally, it must have TWO chambers empty.

What do you guys think?

Utah Code
Title 76 Utah Criminal Code
Chapter 10 Offenses Against Public Health, Safety, Welfare, and Morals
Section 502 When weapon deemed loaded.


76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded.
(1) For the purpose of this chapter, any pistol, revolver, shotgun, rifle, or other weapon described in this part shall be deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile in the firing position.
(2) Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.
(3) A muzzle loading firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinders.
 
In utah it has been established previously that you must be "two steps" from firing. semiauto would include disengaging safety and racking slide, revolver would be nothing under the following chamber, but the others loaded.
 
It sure looks like you're right: the charge hole that will be in the firing position when the hammer is cocked (or the trigger is pulled) must be empty.

But... #1 implies that the "firing position" might mean "under the hammer", too, since it says, "revolver".

Is there Utah case law regarding this? It's not what makes sense, it's what some random judge has decided the law means, that matters.
 
Thingster said:
In utah it has been established previously that you must be "two steps" from firing. semiauto would include disengaging safety and racking slide, revolver would be nothing under the following chamber, but the others loaded.
Click to expand...
So if theoretically you wanted to carry a single action revolver, would cocking the revolver be considered a step? Could you keep a single action revolver fully loaded and carry it legally without a permit?

I'm not from Utah, so if this opens a can of worms, please ignore me, I was just curious.
 
Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded when an unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile is in a position whereby the manual operation of any mechanism once would cause the unexpended cartridge, shell, or projectile to be fired.

Nope, sounds like on a DA/SA revolver that as long as the first adjacent cylinder is empty that you should be fine.
The fun one would be technically all cylinders can be loaded in an SAO due to it taking more than one action to render the gun fireable.
Cocking the hammer is an action, and pulling the trigger is a second.
 
But this is why they call it 'double action', pulling the trigger performs two actions.

From "Utah Gun Law II" by Attorney Mitch Vilos,

"Plain talk.

Obviously, if a firearm with a bullet in the chamber is loaded. Pistols and revolvers are loaded if the operation of any mechanism once would cause the gun to fire. A double action revolver with no bullet aligned with the barrel is still considered 'loaded' under this definition, if pulling the trigger would cause the cylinder to rotate and fire the gun. A semi-automatic pistol, however, is NOT loaded even if it has a magazine or clip in it, even if there is no bullet in the barrel."
 
I'm doing my own digging, I'm finding opinions going both directions. I think that in the least, the code is poorly written, it leaves "firing position" undefined. It would also make different rules for SA revolvers than DA revolvers. I still think that the intent of the law is to have one empty chamber.

Girodin? Fiddletown?
 
"...the code is poorly written..." Laws, everyhere, are poorly written. Designed to be as vague as possible and left to the courts to interpret.
Think in terms of a revolver with any chamber having a live round as being loaded.
"...if you don't have a permit..." A cop won't care how the chambers are filled. If you don't have a carry permit, don't carry. It's not worth the BS that will ensue. Save you a huge pile of money in legal fees.
 
"Plain talk.

Obviously, if a firearm with a bullet in the chamber is loaded. Pistols and revolvers are loaded if the operation of any mechanism once would cause the gun to fire. A double action revolver with no bullet aligned with the barrel is still considered 'loaded' under this definition, if pulling the trigger would cause the cylinder to rotate and fire the gun. A semi-automatic pistol, however, is NOT loaded even if it has a magazine or clip in it, even if there is no bullet in the barrel."
Click to expand...

And this guy is supposed to be an expert? He really needs to figure out what a bullet is and what a round or cartridge is.
 
The word that worries me is section 2, first sentence: "also," which seems to mean "in addition to what is stated in section 1," which also specifically mentions revolvers.

I think your friend has a reasonably cautious interpretation.
 
I find this information to be astounding. I would never have imagined a legislative body quibbling over how many cartridges are required to be in a firearm before the weapon is considered "loaded." No wonder people shoot themselves and others unintentionally.
I have no use for the opinion of any politician, especially if they are currently in office. To me, one cartridge in a firearm constitutes loaded, and all firearms have at least one in them at all times.
Of course, maybe I have missed something. I don't usually sleep well.
 
The law as it now reads makes me wonder if it was changed after an enterprising lawyer got someone off by successfully arguing that the gun wasn't "loaded". Looks to me like they still left some ambiguity.
 
Per Section 2, for revolvers, the round under the hammer is not in a firing position. The next two chambers if empty would meet the "unloaded" requirement. A round in the chamber under the hammer won't be the one to go bang when the hammer is cocked on a single-action or the trigger is pulled in double-action.

That a grandmaster is a skilled shooter doesn't mean that he's literate.
 
Well, he's an attorney and an IDPA grandmaster, I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...

OK. Maybe he was just putting it in terms that Bubba Joe on the street could understand! Still, I think it would improve public perception if he would use proper terms.
 
In utah it has been established previously that you must be "two steps" from firing. semiauto would include disengaging safety and racking slide, revolver would be nothing under the following chamber, but the others loaded.
Click to expand...

True about two "steps" in UT... what is not true is that disengaging the safety is considered a "step"... it is not. Racking the slide or pulling the trigger is considered a "step". Therefore, in the context of the OP, a double action revolver must have one empty chamber in the firing position (the chamber before the one that's aligned with the barrel)... this would require two trigger pulls to fire the gun (aka: two steps).

But this is why they call it 'double action', pulling the trigger performs two actions.
Click to expand...

I would not count on that to convince a jury. The essence of Utah's 2-step law does not include 2-in-1 actions that are automated by mechanical aids. It means 2 physical actions by the gun owner... not 2 actions by the gun.
 
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As a Utah Deputy Sheriff, "loaded" is when there is a live round under the hammer and/or a live round in the firing position.

It may be not loaded, but still be "with ammunition".:banghead:
 
KenW., your view doesn't seem to fit "76-10-502. When weapon deemed loaded. (1)" as stated in the OP.

To repeat: The round under the hammer of a revolver is not in a firing position.

(This has nothing to do with my personal opinion that four out of six is loaded enough to worry me.)
 
Did my post get deleted of did I just never post it?


Anyway, I think that it is clear that there needs to be two chambers empty. The firing position is the position from which the bullet is fired, and that is the chamber that is staring down the barrel of the gun.

Note that section two states "Pistols and revolvers shall also be deemed to be loaded...". If it meant for just the one chamber to be unloaded, the chamber that moves into the firing position when the gun is cocked, it would leave revolvers out of section one and simply make section two about them. Also means that there is an additional requirement, not that it is further defining the aforementioned requirement.
 
Why not just cut the hassle and get a permit? To me, a defensive gun that requires more than one action to fire it is an expensive and shiny club.
 
It would always make sense to have a permit and to always keep it unloaded. But for your co-worker, two chambers empty means it is unloaded. Having one loaded is questionable. Don't take the risk of wondering, always be safe. I hope you can tell your co-worker the appropriate answer now!
 
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