Questions/Concerns about the .40 Caliber

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zebco

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I've been creating some threads today to ask questions I've been curious about. So here is one on the .40 caliber. I want to start off saying I don't want this be a "caliber war" thread, nor do I want to bash certain manufacturers of guns.

I've read on here and other forums about serious malfunctions with the .40 and Glock models. I think the term used was "kaboom." (and let me add here that, while not my favorite, I do like and appreciate Glock guns.) Is this something with the caliber itself, or the gun? It seems that problems with CZ guns tend to be the .40 also. So what gives? Is there an inherent problem with the .40 concerning feeding or another issue? Are there enough examples of guns out there that have zero issues handling that round? If so, which tend to handle it better?

And as far as the "kaboom" thing, is this just overhyped? Are there examples of other caliber Glocks having this problem? Should I be concerned about this with a 10mm Glock? And I'll finish by adding again that I'm trying to fulfill my curiosity about certain topics, and not wanting to bash a certain caliber or manufacturer. Thanks to those that can offer insight.
 
I owned a Model 22 for almost 20 years and not one problem. Used factory ammo.
Traded it in on a SIG P226 in .40S&W that felt better in my hands.
I like the .40S&W round.

Lateck,
 
There's nothing wrong with the .40S&W, but if you have your heart set on a .40 caliber weapon, I'd recommend getting something chambered for 10mm. The .40S&W is modeled after the 10mm cartridge, but shortened and with a lighter powder charge. The .40S&W only came about because of the development of the 10mm cartridge to have better stopping power than the 9mm, with a flatter trajectory and higher velocity than the .45acp, comparable to something between a .357 magnum and .44 magnum revolver round. During FBI testing, the cartridge performed phenominally, but they determined that the recoil was too heavy, and grip too large for the average agent. S&W saw a gap to fill, and created the .40S&W, which is simply a shorter 10mm. The .40S&W cannot match the accuracy and ballistics of the 10mm, so if you're looking for something between a 9mm and .45acp, with great ballistics and accuracy, I'd recommend the Glock 20, as long as you can afford to spend a little extra on ammo. Sorry for the long post, but I'd really like the 10mm to be a little more popular. The .40 is ok, but in my eyes, you might as well just get a 9mm instead.
 
And as far as the "kaboom" thing, is this just overhyped?
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Yes.

There's nothing wrong with the .40S&W, but if you have your heart set on a .40 caliber weapon, I'd recommend getting something chambered for 10mm. The .40S&W is modeled after the 10mm cartridge, but shortened and with a lighter powder charge. The .40S&W only came about because of the development of the 10mm cartridge to have better stopping power than the 9mm, with a flatter trajectory and higher velocity than the .45acp, comparable to something between a .357 magnum and .44 magnum revolver round. During FBI testing, the cartridge performed phenominally, but they determined that the recoil was too heavy, and grip too large for the average agent. S&W saw a gap to fill, and created the .40S&W, which is simply a shorter 10mm. The .40S&W cannot match the accuracy and ballistics of the 10mm, so if you're looking for something between a 9mm and .45acp, with great ballistics and accuracy, I'd recommend the Glock 20, as long as you can afford to spend a little extra on ammo. Sorry for the long post, but I'd really like the 10mm to be a little more popular. The .40 is ok, but in my eyes, you might as well just get a 9mm instead.
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Just to make things clear, you can not shoot .40 in a barrel chambered for 10mm
 
If Glock .40s suck, why are they standard issue for FBI agents......

They're great guns....IMHO
 
During FBI testing, the cartridge performed phenominally, but they determined that the recoil was too heavy...
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The cartridge performed very well when loaded to propel a 180gr bullet at 980 fps. It had a greater success rate in meeting the 12-inch minimum penetration depth desired by the FBI (97.5%) than then exisiting .38 Special (67.5%), 9mm (67.5%) and .45 ACP (92.5%).

and grip too large for the average agent.
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The .40 S&W was developed to fit inside medium-frame automatics, not because the FBI S&W 1076 handgun's "grip was too large".

More info on history & devlopment of 10mm, which ultimately led to development of .40 S&W:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf
http://www.firearmstactical.com/fbi_10mm_pistol_hall.htm
 
For 15+ years, I have shot several hundreds and thousands of factory FMJ/JHP and jacketed/plated mid-high range load data reloads out of my Glock 22/27 - I will admit that I HAVE NOT shot over-charged reloads out of my Glocks and I have cleaned them after each range/match session of 500-2000+ rounds. Only malfunctions I have experienced have been "high" primers not igniting, but since have fixed that problem by hand priming all of my match/range practice rounds.

Gen3/4 Glock barrels have tighter chambers and have improved case base support at the ramp area compared to Gen1/2. So if they have finger grooves, keep them clean and lightly lubed and you are good to go.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6691798#post6691798
I have shot 300,000+ of reloaded jacketed and plated rounds through my factory Gen3 Glock barrels with no issue. I shot 40S&W reloads primarily but also 9mm/45ACP.

I think the key factors to remember when shooting jacketed/plated reloads are:
- Keep your charge loads mid-high range of load data and do not exceed max charge
- If you see bulged cases, reduce your charge
- Inspect your spent cases and do not reuse damaged/questionable cases

I have also shot quite a bit of lead reloads in Glocks, but prefer to shoot them out of Lone Wolf barrels. If you shoot a lot of lead reloads, $100 is very cheap insurance and compared to price of jacketed/plated bullets, you'll pay for the cost of reloading equipment+$100 barrel much faster (do the math for several thousand rounds):
- Same as above, but inspect/clean your barrel (especially the chamber to rifling transition area) regularly. If I am shooting lead reloads out of my factory Glock barrels, I check them every 200-300 rounds or so

Be safe and have fun with your Glocks.
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Don't worry about it. The 40 S&W is the most dominant Law Enforcement cartridge in the US. It would not have reached that status if it had problems and didn't work.
 
Shawn Dodson said:
The cartridge performed very well when loaded to propel a 180gr bullet at 980 fps. It had a greater success rate in meeting the 12-inch minimum penetration depth desired by the FBI (97.5%) than then exisiting .38 Special (67.5%), 9mm (67.5%) and .45 ACP (92.5%).

The .40 S&W was developed to fit inside medium-frame automatics, not because the FBI S&W 1076 handgun's "grip was too large".

More info on history & devlopment of 10mm, which ultimately led to development of .40 S&W:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf
http://www.firearmstactical.com/fbi_10mm_pistol_hall.htm
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During tests of 9mm and .45 ACP ammunition, FBI Firearms Training Unit, Special Agent In Charge, John Hall, decided to include tests of the 10mm cartridge, supplying his personally owned Colt Delta Elite 10mm automatic, and personally handloading 10mm ammunition. The FBI's tests revealed that a 170-180gr JHP 10mm bullet, propelled between 900-1000 fps, achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil associated with conventional 10mm ammunition (1300-1400 fps). The FBI contacted Smith & Wesson and requested it to design a handgun to FBI specifications, based on the existing large-frame S&W 4506 .45 ACP handgun, that would reliably function with the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm ammunition. During this collaboration with the FBI, S&W realized it could shorten the 10mm case enough to fit within its medium-frame 9mm handguns and load it with a 180gr JHP bullet to produce ballistic performance identical to the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm cartridge. S&W then teamed with Winchester to produce a new cartridge, the .40 S&W. It uses a small pistol primer whereas the 10mm cartridge uses a large pistol primer.

Although it was selected by the F.B.I. for use in the field, their Firearms Training Unit "concluded that its recoil was excessive in terms of training for average agent/police officer competency of use and qualification," and the pistols that chambered it were too large for some small-handed individuals.[6] These issues led to the creation and eventual adoption of a shortened version of the 10mm that would evolve into what is today the .40 S&W.

Taken from multiple sources. There's a lot more info, if someone's bored and wants to google it. Very intersting though. The development of the .40S&W is actually due to the 1986 Miami shootout. That's what spurred the FBI to equip it's agents with something else then the old .38 revolvers. Sorry don't mean to threadjack. LOL.
 
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Most of my guns are .40 cal, ZERO problems.

I regret getting rid of my 226 years ago, as now I'm going to get another.

There are some GREAT defensive rounds out there as well.

Check out the youtube channel of tnoutdoors9

He has the best videos I've seen where he demonstrates what happens to a round after it hits it's target.

As far as guns and recoil, some react differently as stated above. I have had some pricey guns in .40 and inexpensive (even the Astra A75) and I don't think I've had a misfire yet in them yet (tens of thousands of rounds).

I'd check some ranges or shops with ranges and see if you can "rent" some and try 'em out, great way to not regret a purchase on a new firearm.
 
...the pistols that chambered it were too large for some small-handed individuals.[6]
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This is an inaccurate claim. The FBI had just been involved in a lawsuit (Hansen v. Webster) in which the plaintiff claimed that the FBI issue revolver, the S&W model 13, was too big for women's smaller hands.
 
zebco said:
I've been creating some threads today to ask questions I've been curious about. So here is one on the .40 caliber. I want to start off saying I don't want this be a "caliber war" thread, nor do I want to bash certain manufacturers of guns.

I've read on here and other forums about serious malfunctions with the .40 and Glock models. I think the term used was "kaboom." (and let me add here that, while not my favorite, I do like and appreciate Glock guns.) Is this something with the caliber itself, or the gun? It seems that problems with CZ guns tend to be the .40 also. So what gives? Is there an inherent problem with the .40 concerning feeding or another issue? Are there enough examples of guns out there that have zero issues handling that round? If so, which tend to handle it better?

And as far as the "kaboom" thing, is this just overhyped? Are there examples of other caliber Glocks having this problem? Should I be concerned about this with a 10mm Glock? And I'll finish by adding again that I'm trying to fulfill my curiosity about certain topics, and not wanting to bash a certain caliber or manufacturer. Thanks to those that can offer insight.
Click to expand...

You'll notice there is an abnormal amount of shooters also posting: "Do I ever have to clean my Glock? because I'm lazy and hate having fingers?" threads.

And don't forget: "Can i shoot lead and never ever clean my barrel cause i hate having fingers?" threads.

Not to forget: " How much powder can I stuff in a .40 case? I still have 4 fingers left, i think I can handle it?" and "Captain Bubba made some reloads out of old Wolf steel cases and lead wheel weights, I'm going to run those in my Glock, I really hate my hands."

Alot of Glocks/Kimbers/Ar15/HK/Springy/whatever get banged up every year by Momos that get complacent with the fact that handguns deserve some respect.
Glocks are very popular, and great for beginners. There are millions of them out there. Some get blown up just like any brand, usually it's not the pistols fault regardless of brand.

If you pay attention, service your Glock regularly including changeing the springs, and actually clean and lube it properly.....you'll have nothing to worry about. IMO, the Glock is the finest pistol out there.

Don't believe all the hearsay on the net, we've all met Momos at the range that make us want to dive into a foxhole. Some people have no regard for their own safety.
 
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I've owned several .40's. The Glock 35 I had was not very accurate compared to it's big brother, the Glock 20 10mm, but it was reliable and safe.
The Glock 20 with .40 conversion barrel was one of the best .40's I've ever fired, highly accurate.
The Sig P226 is another great .40.
The HK USP .40 is a bomb proof .40, but not as accurate for me as the Sig.
 
Although it was selected by the F.B.I. for use in the field, their Firearms Training Unit "concluded that its recoil was excessive in terms of training for average agent/police officer competency of use and qualification
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Which is absolute BS due to the fact the .40 S&W Automatic cartridge and load standards are based upon and duplicated the FBI tested, approved, and issues 180gr JHP at 980fps. This means the .40 S&W load exactly mimicked, duplicated, and was redundant to the 10mm load used by the FBI and the recoil was of no issue since they generated the same internal ballistics.

Same powder charge, same bullet weight, same velocity, same gun weight will always have the same recoil. Welcome to physics for gun owners.

Furthermore, the FBI dropped the 10mm due to politics. The FBI trained their agents to prep the trigger before firing. This lead to failures of the gun. The FBI told S&W to fix the gun. S&W told the FBI to get bent. Follow the money. The FBI canceled the contract for the S&W pistols and went to SIG. But they adopted the .40 S&W cartridge, so who got the last laugh?

I've known Mr Hall for many years and have spoken with him about the 10mm testing at length. He stated one of the protocols for the testing was that the gun and ammo combination couldn't recoil more than the M1911A1 with standard GI ball. The S&W 1076 10mm loaded with 180gr bullet at the 980fps tested meets that requirement. So there goes your "excessive recoil theory BS" again. If the .45 GI ball in a 1911 is too much, there's other issues at play.
 
Zero, you reminded me of something I hadn't thought of in years. I remember being at the gun shop with my dad a few years back. This guy down the counter is arguing with his friend about which gun guy #2 should buy.

Guy 2 says, "I don't want a 10mm it just looks to big."
Guy 1: You're an idiot the 10mm is the greatest handgun bullet ever developed.
Guy 2: Why is it so much better than the 9mm.
Guy 1: "Because it is a whole inch bigger dumb @$$."
(He was actually holding his hand in the okay sign to illustrate that it was a whole inch bigger in diameter.)
 
My old duty gun was a G22. I did not have any problems with it through several thousand rounds. Out of nearly 100 Patrol Officers/Detectives, none had issues with their G22s.
I did not observe any issues with the 40 caliber Glock pistols at my academy (majority were G22s and G23s). The last shooting school I went to was about 90% G22s, I did not witness any problems there either.

That doesn't mean that there aren't problems with some of them. There is always the chance of a lemon.

I also believe that the Kabooms are over hyped.
 
To answer the OP's question, yes .40 S&W can cause major problems in firearms with chambers that do not fully support the case head. I don't feel like retyping it, so here's a link to Speer's .40 S&W warning which I posted in another thread. Note that this warning appears on no other cartridge in Speer Reloading Manual No. 13. All the folks who think that .40 S&W KBs are caused by negligence should read that warning carefully, and take note as to what the engineers at Speer have to say on the subject.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6678669&postcount=35
 
Any common service guns that don't fully support the case head?
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Yes; Glock, Springfield EMP, and a few others which I cant remember at this hour. Glock has slowly added more case head support to their .40 S&W pistols, but they still don't completely support it.

It's easy to check though. Simply field strip the weapon, and grab the barrel. Drop a round or fired case into the bbl, and have a look. Take a look at post #32 by valorious in the same thread which I linked, which has a picture of a CZ-40 bbl/chamber with full case head support, and you'll see what I mean. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6678618&postcount=32
 
RhinoDefense said:
Which is absolute BS due to the fact the .40 S&W Automatic cartridge and load standards are based upon and duplicated the FBI tested, approved, and issues 180gr JHP at 980fps. This means the .40 S&W load exactly mimicked, duplicated, and was redundant to the 10mm load used by the FBI and the recoil was of no issue since they generated the same internal ballistics.

Same powder charge, same bullet weight, same velocity, same gun weight will always have the same recoil. Welcome to physics for gun owners.

Furthermore, the FBI dropped the 10mm due to politics. The FBI trained their agents to prep the trigger before firing. This lead to failures of the gun. The FBI told S&W to fix the gun. S&W told the FBI to get bent. Follow the money. The FBI canceled the contract for the S&W pistols and went to SIG. But they adopted the .40 S&W cartridge, so who got the last laugh?

I've known Mr Hall for many years and have spoken with him about the 10mm testing at length. He stated one of the protocols for the testing was that the gun and ammo combination couldn't recoil more than the M1911A1 with standard GI ball. The S&W 1076 10mm loaded with 180gr bullet at the 980fps tested meets that requirement. So there goes your "excessive recoil theory BS" again. If the .45 GI ball in a 1911 is too much, there's other issues at play.
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The full load 10mm is closer to 1300-1400fps, I think you're confused with the "FBI light load" Did you even read the post you commented on and called BS? The reason the FBI came up with the light load is due to heavy recoil. When the powder charge is lessened, it is more similar to the .40S&W.

Can you back up the politics claim with proof? Seems interesting. I'd like to learn more.
 
the glock "kaboom" thing with the .40 10mm or .357 sig isn't some inherent design with the round or glocks, but there was an issue with the serial number range EAAXXXUS to EZZXXXUS with the frames cracking. some people get wind of this, or hear about it in part and think it's an issue with glock when it was just for that range of serial numbers. the high pressure round accompanied by the prevalence of glocks in law enforcement contributed to bringing it to light, and the internet helped to pervert what really happened.
 
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