Quick 1911 grip safety question

[mpthole]

I know that aftermarket grip safeties need to be fitted to the frame, but they also have to be fitted for proper trigger bow engagement?

I thought about posting this question over here, but didn't want to hi-jack it too bad.

My problem is similar though... the grip safety is not stopping the trigger and the gun will fire regardless of the position of the grip safety. This only started happening when I installed a new hammer and sear. The grip safety works just fine with the original hammer and sear combo, but not the new one. Its almost like the sear breaks engagement before the trigger even has time to hit the safety.

I've tried two triggers to see if there is a difference... the original that came in the pistol and an Ed Brown. The same things happen with both - even though the bow on the original one is a bit longer.

When I install the original sear and hammer, regardless of which trigger is installed, the grip safety works just fine. So again, it leads me to believe that the new sear and hammer are breaking contact "too fast" - or at least way faster than the originals. The sear and hammer are both Ed Brown hardcore. The grip safety is a King's drop in.

 

[Titus]

The grip safety does need to be fitted to the trigger (that's the point of the grip safety). I'd still be concerned with the original hammer and sear, since it would seem like it's not really blocking the trigger. Even though they don't quite "let go", I'd wonder how far are things moving in there. Do you have the original grip safety to test with too?

 

[1911Tuner]

Grip Safety Problem

Howdy Mark,

You likely diagnosed your own problem.

Although the hammer and sear don't have anything directly to do with the operation of the grip safety, most aftermarket sears are a little oversized in critical areas to allow for final fittin' & tweakin'. One of these areas is
the portion of the sear that the disconnector bears against when the pistol is ready to fire...the legs. Since the trigger transfers motion THROUGH the disconnect to the sear, it's entirely possible that the sear gets tripped
before the trigger bow can hit the grip safety lug. The only movement
required is .001 inch more than the length of the hammer hooks.

Another thing enters the picture though. Even though the sear could move enough to escape from the hooks...it's not likely that it could move far enough to get past the half-cock unless the trigger stirrup completely
missed the safety lug, so there may be a spec problem with the safety
lug itself.

Slip the mainspring housing down just enough to let the grip safety pivot
out a little farther at the bottom, and hold it out with a little pressure to see if it blocks the trigger in that position. You'll be able to feel the trigger stop solidly if it does. While holding presure on the trigger, push the grip safety in to see if it lets the trigger slip past it. If this happens, proceed to
the next step.

Reinstall the mainspring housing with the pin. Cock the hammer and pull
out firmly on the bottom of the grip safety. Use the tip of a small screwdriver if you need to...gently. Pull the trigger to see if the hammer will fall. If it doesn't, you can use a smooth mill file to let the safety pivot
further at the bottom. Take a few strokes off the area of the mainspring
housing where the retaining feet of the safety hits it, and take a few off the
retaining feet. 2-3 strokes at a time, and check it.

You may need to make the lug "grow" longer in addition to these tweaks.
lay the lug flat on a steel surface, and use a hammer to stretch the tip
by striking it at an angle to make the steel flow. Be careful to keep the lug
dead flat on the anvil surface, or you'll bend it, or maybe even break it off.
Take 3-4 whacks at it and try it in the gun. Trial and error are the keywords on this.

All three of these adjustments...a little here and a little there...should bring
things into line. There's a good chance that you'll need to do a little filing on the lug to let it disengage enough to fire the gun. make the cut lightly on the underside of the tip...AT AN ANGLE. About 45 degrees should do.
Lightly! One stroke at a time, and then remove any burrs or sharp edges
with a stone. If the trigger hangs up on the lug and won't reset smoothly,
file the underside of the lug straight up to the angle...and stone smooth.

Standin' by...

 

[mpthole]

Ok, I'll check those things tonight. I'm guessing its the sear legs... but I'll print out this thread and be sure to check everything.

Thanks!





ps. you know, these darned things can sure be frustrating sometimes, but so far I'm still having fun and learning a lot to-boot.

 

[Ken Rainey]

How do you spell "de zsha vu", dejavu, awh heck, anyway, the exact same thing happen to me using Ed Brown's hardcore parts - that stretchin' of the safety's finger did the trick on mine.

Ken

 

[mpthole]

Johnny - you're a genius!

After messing with it for the better part of 2 hours, I finally got it. The sear legs did seem a little long and a bit rough, so I took a little tiny bit off of them. Then I started taking a closer look at the grip safety and all of its workings. (This GS is the King's drop-in for Commander style hammers - not the one I sent you to clean up my last mistake. )

I must have read your post 20 times and was about to start hammering, when I remembered that I had two other grip safeties to test this thing with. One was the older King's that you had worked on for me and the other was the orginal. Lo-and-behold, they both worked! :banghead: Why didn't I check these before?!? Having two that worked and one that didn't thoroughly convinced me to start the modifications.

I ended up taking a few filing strokes to the retaining feet on the grip safety. Then, I took the whole works out to the garage where I have a vice and a big hammer. Just like you said, 3-4 wacks and re-test. It took a little while, but it finally worked! Just had to clean it up some of the sharp edges and re-test for engagemnt.

Works like a champ!

Next big project: fitting a "real" duck-tail




Oh - one other thing... I remember reading something you wrote about checking the gap between the frame, up by the dust cover, and the bottom of the slide. Something about being able to see a little bit of the recoil spring...? Well, I did that and I can see spring. How much is too much?



Thanks Johnny - you're the best!


pps. Ken - just curious... where did you hear about stretching the safety's finger?

 

[1911Tuner]

Grip Safety

Genius??

Nahhhh...Just a little Grits'n'Gravy applied to the right places.

You said:

The sear legs did seem a little long and a bit rough, so I took a little tiny bit off of them.
______________

Be sure to check the thumb safety for correct function. Cock the hammer and engage the safety. Pull the trigger about twice as hard as it takes to
drop the hammer, and hold the left side of the gun up to your ear. Pull
the hammer s-lo-w-l-y past full cock and listen for a light "click' If you hear
that click, the sear moved, and the safety needs to be refitted. Don't let the hammer hit the grip safety when you pull it past full cock. That'll
give you a false reading. If the sear resets, it'll click as soon as the hammer comes off of it.

If you don't hear a click, repeat the test, but this time thumb the safety down and listen. If you don't hear a click, hold the trigger back and rack the slide briskly to cock the hammer. Engage safety and pull the trigger. Disengage the safety and dry-fire the gun. If the trigger feels normal, you're good to go.

Fitting that ducktail will be pretty straightforward if you use a jig...Time
consuming if you go at it freehand. If you want a close fit, you'll need a
set of ground/hardened pins in .001 increments and lapping compound.
If you can borrow a set of graduated tapered pins...bonus! Expensive though, if you need to buy either set. Probably cheaper to have a smith
do it.

Luck to ya!

Tuner

 

[Old Fuff]

One thing not yet mentioned...

I've pounded on grip safeties for years with my trusty "big hammer," but these days I'm more careful. When I had "real-steel" parts made by Colt or a USGI contractor, this fix worked fine. Today the finger that blocks the trigger is thinned to work with Series 80 Colts, and there isn't a whole lot of metal to stretch. I've also discovered that some of the new miracle materials they use now tend to be brittle.

Bottom line. Be exactly what you're pounding on.

An alternative is to solder a shim on the back of the trigger bow and then remove a little metal from the sear if necessary.

To be blunt I suspect that the real cause of the problem is that the hole in the frame is slightly off. It doesn’t take much.

Really folks, they don't make them like they used too ...

 

[mpthole]

Tuner - thumb safety checks out ok.

Old Fuff:

I suspect that the real cause of the problem is that the hole in the frame is slightly off

It very well could be... but 2 of my 3 grip safeties did fit without any modification - of course it was that 3rd one that I wanted on the gun.

Either way - seems to work for now.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Good show, lad!

Fuff said:

I suspect that the real cause of the problem is that the hole in the frame is slightly off
_______________

I HATE those! I ran into a grip safety issue on a Safari Arms clone about a year ago...One of the pistols that had the finger grooves cast into the frame. (Enforcer?) Anyway...The hole was too close to the "one hole on the frame which all others are dimensioned from" <--(Trivia points)
When I got the trigger to release, and took a firing grip on the gun...the
dagnab hammer strut was draggin' so hard on the grip safety that the hammer would fall about t-h-i-s s-l-o-w. By the time I got the channel relieved enough to get off the strut, the steel was so thin in the radius that you could almost see light through it. :banghead:

I was fit ta be tied...

 

[Ken Rainey]

mpthole said "where did you hear about stretching the safety's finger?"

Well, ol' cousin Johnny "Tuner" told me that little secret, ain't he sumthin'..


Ken

 

[1911Tuner]

Tip

Fuff mentioned bein' careful not to break the lug on a cheap imitation steel grip safety...Good advice.

I've got a little trick to prevent that too...and it'll work just as well on a real steel safety. Use a center punch on either side of the lug to kick up a burr on the point so it can make contact with the trigger stirrup. I forgot to mention that...sorry. Haste and many dogs yappin' to go out. It's not only a little quicker...it's more exact on the location, and easy to lightly stone if you move too much.

Luck!

Tuner