Quick and Dirty Range Report: Springer 1911

[Quintin Likely]

Well, finally took the thing out today. Ran about 200 rounds of various stuff through it, mostly Winchester USA brand 230 gr. ball, which functioned great. My scientific range report gradually devolved into an unorganized blasting session though Out to about 15 yards, it'll hold them all in the 8 ring or better, a testament to my lousy shooting.

A couple things though: With Winchester 230 gr. ball, it functioned great. Although with a variety of hollowpoints, it'd lock the slide back with one round still in the magazine. The round would be stripped off the magazine, but it would sit on the follower with the slide locked back. It did this with Hydrashoks, SXTs, XTPs, and Gold Dots. What gives? Just teething pains till it settles in? About 100 rounds in, I gave it a quick field strip and clean and went back to it, no change. It did this with either the crummy 7 round magazines that came with the gun or the Wilson 47Cs I was using.

Ejection was kinda so-so. For the most part, it kicked out empties with authority at about a 45 degree angle off to my right. Although a few times, a straggler would fly almost straight up and pop me in the head. Normal?

There's a set screw in the trigger too. I haven't found in the instructions what it adjusts though, and I got a little Allen wrench in the bag of stuff that came with it that fits the little screw in there. Pull weight? I'm kinda not inclined to mess with it too much, my un-calculated finger puts the stock trigger at about 5 lbs, which I think I can live with as I get acclimated to it and begin carrying it.

Answers? Comments? Criticisms? Help this 1911 newbie out!

 

[Black Snowman]

I had the same lock-back issue you did with my Delta Elite I recently got but it was on two new Shooting Star mags and 2nd time around each they were flawless so I don't know what to tell you on that. Mine were all realoads and they were a bit on the light side so that might have contributed to the phenomenon.

I'm not certain but I belive the set screw is for over-travel. I'll let the more experianced 1911er chime in with the facts.

Also don't forget to hit http://www.1911forum.com I'm sure a quick search there will get you a ton of info.

 

[1911Tuner]

The Problem

A couple things though: With Winchester 230 gr. ball, it functioned great. Although with a variety of hollowpoints, it'd lock the slide back with one round still in the magazine. The round would be stripped off the magazine, but it would sit on the follower with the slide locked back.

That was caused by the last round getting out of the magazine under
under inertia brought on by the next-to-last-round's recoil and slide cycle.

Briefly...The round fires, and the pistol torques upward in recoil. The
last round's inertial resistance to movement forces it to obey Newton's
second mandate to stand still. The weight compresses the magazine spring for just a millisecond...maybe a couple thousandths of an inch.
Just as the spring tries to nail the last round back up against the feed lips,
the slide smacks the frame and jerks the pistol sharply backward away
from the now "floating" last round. The round winds up either ahead
of where it should be in the mag...producing a push-feed/extractor
snapover...or it escapes completely, and lets the follower engage the
slidestop. The slide locks back with the last round laying loose on top
of the follower.

A stronger magazine spring will help, but if your follower doesn't have that
small dimple in the center, it probably won't cure it completely. If the
dimple is there, a Wolff 11-pound mag spring will cure it. That's why
the dimple is there...to arrest the forward movement of the last round
under recoil.

If the round that beans you in the head is the last one out of the magazine,
your extractor needs a little more tension. If you're not an experienced hand at extractor tweaking, it'll be trial and error to get it to feed smoothly
and get the empty out in the right direction. Look at the top front of the
ejection port. You'll probably see brass-colored marks somewhere around that area. What is happening is that the case is getting kicked straight up
and whacked by the slide as it recoils. The slide is booting it backward at your head.

If the ones that bean you are at random anywhere in the magazine. and the extractor tension is good, clip a half-coil off the recoil spring and get a firmer grip on the gun. The brass tracks will likely be present on this one
too.

Luck to ya!

Tuner

 

[Soap]

Dang Tuner is good!

 

[George Hill]

Only if what he recommends works...


(And it looks like it will)

 

[1911Tuner]

Uh-Oh...

George said:

Only if what he recommends works...

This better work, or I'm dawg meat...

Seriously...The Springfield extractors have had some bad reports in the
last few months...Bad heat-treat/soft parts. If the tension won't hold,
probably be best to just get a Brown Hardcore or Wilson Bulletproof
and be done with it.

There's also the possibility that the first problem caused the extractor
tension to go south after the hook snapped over the rim a a few times.


Standin' by...
Tuner

 

[md2lgyk]

The setscrew in the trigger is indeed an overtravel adjustment, and has nothing to do with trigger pull weight. If it were my gun and I was going to use it for CCW or even serious competition, I'd take the screw out. I had an incident a few years back where my .45 quit working in the middle of a match because the screw had moved slightly due to recoil and the trigger would no longer go back far enough to fire the gun.

 

[cidirkona]

My new high-strength colt officer 6 round mag doesn't have a dimple... am I going to get similar problems?

Thanks
-Colin

 

[1911Tuner]

No Dimple

My new high-strength colt officer 6 round mag doesn't have a dimple... am I going to get similar problems

Possibly...but it depends a lot on how strong that spring is. If you get the
telltale malfunction on the last round that he has, or, if you have failures
to return to battery with the extractor hook rammed into the rear of the
case rim...it's the Lack-a-Dimple Syndrome.

Another related sign of a weak spring is a live round flying out of the magazine during the feed cycle. The next-to-last-round ejects from the mag while the last round chambers. Some guys don't catch it until they find live ammo amongst their brass.

Surprised that a Colt 6-round magazine doesn't have one. Are you sure
it's a 6-round mag? Are you sure that it's a COLT mag? Does it have
the horsie on it or does it just say: "Colt .45 Auto"? If it doesn't have
the horsie, it ain't a genuine Colt magazine.

Tuner

 

[Top_Notch]

Last Friday (12-12) I too managed to take my Springfield out for it's initial firings. After a quick field strip, clean, and lube at home I took my NIB 45 to the range. I shot 100 rounds (all I had) of WWB 230 and I am happy to report the gun was flawless. No last round feeding issues. It was a good day.

 

[cidirkona]

Er.. ok, it's a Mac-Gar mag with a "colt officer's" sticker on the box....

-Colin

 

[1911Tuner]

Mec-Gar

Some pistols like'em...Some don't. That's pretty much how it is with
Wilson and McCormick Powermags, too...so try'em and see.

The good thing about Mec-gar magazines is that the tube is made of
good, thick steel that seems to be well heat treated, and the springs are
strong. The Lack-a-Dimple may turn out to be a non-issue. Some pistols
do okay without them, and nobody seems to know why except for the
gun.

If you get any of the above-mentioned burps, though....you'll need the
dimple. Standard followers probably won't work in the Mec-Gars as
a retrofit item. Never tried the switch, so I could be wrong.

Think Metalform...Go visit their website for a product list. The prices
on the website aren't up to date, so you'll have to call. Press "4"
on the menu option when you get the recording. Ask for Ginny.
A 50 or more order gets you a huge discount. Got four or five
friends who want magazines? Group buys are popular, and they'll
mix and match. Pop for the extra bucks for the Wolff Spring Upgrade. It's well worth it. I've solved MANY feeding problems with a Wolff 11-pound
magazine spring.

Be well!

Tuner

 

[C. H. Luke]

"There's a set screw in the trigger too.... Pull weight? I'm kinda not inclined to mess with it too much, my un-calculated finger puts the stock trigger at about 5 lbs, which I think I can live with...."

That tiny screw is very important and is generally something you would not have any reason to adjust as it should have been set at SA.

It has nothing to do with actual pull weight and is an over-travel adj.
to protect the sear from damage by the hammer dragging on it.

The guns trigger pull weight is controlled by the sear and disconector leaves
of the sear spring.

If your gun is already set at 5 Lb. it will surely drop once the gun is broken in and the internal parts have burnished and mated together, etc.

So give it some time to break in and smooth out. 300-500 rounds is a good figure that will allow both a good function break in and reveal any problems
with the gun reliability-wise.

 

[George Hill]

Metalform makes some good followers you can put into your mags... they are shaped like another bullet in the mag, and allow for flawless feeding. I used these in a couple of my 1911 mags and they curred all ills I had.

 

[1911Tuner]

Metalform Followers

George, those Metalform round followers are very good. The
slight "hump" performs the job of the dimple without the
snag on the rim. They require a special Wolff spring to get
7 rounds in the magazine, but the cost of those springs is
the same as the standard Wolff springs.

The only unknown is whether they will work in his Mec-Gars
without modification, and they're a little pricey unless you order
50 of'em. Last count I heard was about 8 bucks a copy for small
orders.

The Metalform magazines with the round followers come with a marginal
spring unless the Wolff upgrade is specified. They work well in 5-inch
guns with standard recoil springs, but can be problematical in pistols
with short, fast-moving slides with the standard (mag) springs. I got
ten on a group buy a few weeks ago, and had to install the Wolff springs
to make them reliable in two of my Commanders.

For the record...Metalform supplies magazines for Colt, Kimber, Springfield
and Chip McCormick...Shooting Star and Powermags. The difference is
that the Powermags have the Wolff springs and the bumper pads. Both
have the Devel-type follower.

Cheers all!

Tuner

 

[Quintin Likely]

The Wilson magazines I'm looking at now have no little dimples, although the original Springfield magazine that came with it has a little bump sticking up in the middle of the follower. I'm gonna hunt around for some 11 lbs mag springs and re-experiment this weekend, or maybe later this week if I find a local jobber that has 'em in stock. Stay tuned.

And re. the extractor, there are brass pings just above the ejection port flare, although if I remember right, I think the so-so ejection happens intermittently in the middle of a string, not necessarily all the time at the end of a magazine. About 50-60 rounds in was when it started happening, and even then only intermittently.

-Quintin

 

[1911Tuner]

No Dimple Wilson

.A308 said:

The Wilson magazines I'm looking at now have no little dimples,

Take a look at the top of the follower on those Wilsons. Concave
shape that roughly matches the contours of the round? That accomplishes
the same thing as the dimple. The 7-round Wilsons have a better track
record than the 8-rounders, and it seems to be because of the fewer number of coils and strength of the spring in the 8-rounders. A standard
spring won't work with the Wilson-Rogers followers without modifying the
top coil.
---------------------------------------
Also:

The so-so ejection happens intermittently in the middle of a string, not necessarily all the time at the end of a magazine. About 50-60 rounds in was when it started happening, and even then only intermittently.
-----------------------------------

That's a sign that the extractor tension is low, and the fact that it began to happen after some use is a clue that the extractor is snapping over the
rim..probably on the last round...That will take the tension out of an extractor pretty quickly unless it's made of spring steel, which no production
extractors that I'm aware of ARE any more. The better ones are tempered
4340 barstock, and seem to do pretty well.

Springfield had a run of soft extractors a while back, and you may have one of them. If you do, it will go south on you again within about 500
rounds even with the magazine timing corrected. If it does, the best advice that I can give you is to order a Wilson Bulletproof or Brown
Hardcore and be done with it. The Hardcore will provide the best chance
of a drop-in fit after tension adjustment than the Wilson. Wilsons have
extra material in the firing pin stop slot to allow for a press fit, and some
fitting is usually required. The hardcore also has the beveled area at the
bottom of the hook pre-cut, so that won't require any attention, either.
The Wilson doesn't, and is more suited to gunsmith fitting/tuning.

We're standin' by...Hope this squashes your bug.

Tuner

 

[Black Snowman]

Springfield had a run of soft extractors a while back, and you may have one of them. If you do, it will go south on you again within about 500 rounds even with the magazine timing corrected. If it does, the best advice that I can give you is to order a Wilson Bulletproof or Brown Hardcore and be done with it.

Or if you're willing to make the effort see if Springfield will send you a good replacement. It probably wouldn't be worth the expense of sending in the gun but if it's known issue they might be accomidating.

 

[1911Tuner]

Springfield

The Snowman said:

Or if you're willing to make the effort see if Springfield will send you a good replacement. It probably wouldn't be worth the expense of sending in the gun but if it's known issue they might be accomidating.

Maybe. Springfield probably would send him another one, but the problem
is that there are probably some of the bad lot left in the parts bins. That
would give him a chance of getting another one just like the other one.

Most of the more savvy shooters in my circle normally install known
good extractors in production pistols as a matter of course, and use the
factory extractors for emergency spares. The exception is with the
new Colt barstock extractors, since they stopped using MIM and went
back to tempered barstock, they've been trouble-free...so far. The
factory "spares " that ride in my range box usually wind up being
given to friends at the range when they have a problem or break one.

I look forward to the day that they ALL give up and start using spring
steel extractors again as per Browning's mandate...and tune them correctly
on the production line. If that day ever comes, we can pretty much forget
extractor problems. I ain't holdin' my breath though...

Merry Christmas to all! Keep safe.

Tuner

 

[gharsh]

I had a Springfield compact a while back that had extractor problems, actually the hook broke off after 200 rounds. I called Sprinfield and they sent me one two days later, free. I eventually traded it for a full size 1911 because of some accuracy issues, but that also was a Sprinfield. Giving them a call would at least give you another one to try before buying one. They didn't ask me for the old one so I didn't have to send that one in to them, it was broke anyway. But, you could actually get two to try and if they didn't work, you'd have two spares when you buy another one of better quality.

Thos extractors can be pesky little buggers.

Good Luck.

 

[cidirkona]

...yeah, tell me about it...

-Colin

 

[Quintin Likely]

Tuner sez:

"Take a look at the top of the follower on those Wilsons. Concave
shape that roughly matches the contours of the round? That accomplishes
the same thing as the dimple."

Yup, sorta shaped like a loaded cartridge. But if that's the case, then why am I still not getting the last round of a JHP in the chamber? Maybe I oughta just shoot the durn thing some more and see what happens? Or will I still have to go to a stronger magazine spring? The Wilson's I'm using are 7 rounders, BTW.

And I think I'm gonna experiment with the stock extractor to begin with; ultimately, this is gonna be a carry gun, so I'll probably eventually end up throwing the stocker in the garbage, but for now I'll take it as a learning experience. Stay tuned.

-Quintin

 

[1911Tuner]

Last Round Issue

.308Winchester asked:

Yup, sorta shaped like a loaded cartridge. But if that's the case, then why am I still not getting the last round of a JHP in the chamber?

If it's getting loose from the magazine like before, a fresh spring may resolve it....or you may have to throw in the towel on that Wilson mag.
They're flawless in some pistols, and a PITA in others. Likely an
unhappy mating tolerances and variations between that particular
pistol with that particular magazine, or it could be that the pistol just
isn't going to do well with Wilson 47Ds. It happens.

Keep us posted on how the extractor tune goes. It's gonna be interesting
for everybody following the thread to see exactly what cures the problem.
Just keep this in mind. These things are usually something simple, and
90% of the bugs in a 1911 can be traced directly to the extractor or the
magazine...and with the magazine, it's usually the spring tension or the follower.

If you contact Wilson Combat, they'll replace that magazine without question. That's one thing I can say about the old watchmaker. When
you buy a magazine from him, you never have to buy another one unless
you just want another one.

Standin' by...
Tuner

 

[Pebcac]

...unless it's made of spring steel, which no production
extractors that I'm aware of ARE any more.

Cylinder & Slide sells a spring-steel extractor. Part # CS023.

Of course, you might've been saying that no production pistol comes with a spring-steel extractor, in which case, nevermind!

 

[Archer]

Just a quick point- Simply dropping a Wilson Bulletproof extractor directly into a Springfield MAY be a recipe for barrel strike. The Wilson isnt tapered quite enough in the vertical plane to avoid contact with the rear of the barrel hood (right hand arch of the hood extension) during unlocking on SOME SA pistols (including Custom Shop jobs).

This may simply wear a groove into the extractor, but it may damage your barrel- just be aware of it and relieve the top of the hook as needed.

Pistolsmiths generally know this stuff, I learned the hard way.