Range for handgun competency?

[FullEffect1911]

It has always been my understanding that handgun ranges should be 25 yards which is why I always assumed that 25 yards was the range you should shoot at to determine competency. After watching top shot most of the handgun ranges were 50 feet (approx 16 yards).

So what do you feel is the range people should shoot at to see if they are competent with a handgun? If I had to guess I would say if you can post a small group at 15 yards then you are probably a good shot. But some part of me feels like that it just lowering the bar. So what is the modern standard handgun shooting distance?

Any thoughts?

 

[Toforo]

Does PA have a "handgun firing" requirement (i.e. qualification) for their conceal carry permit?

And - if it does, what is the range of the target in which an applicant is required to shoot and how many shots is a student required to fire with their handgun?

 

[ColtPythonElite]

If you can put all hour shots in at least the 7 ring on a B27 sihouette target or the K5/D2 ring on a B21 at 25 yards, I would call you competent.....In simplier terms, if you can hit a sheet of printer paper at 25 yards I would call you competent.

 

[jem375]

When I am practicing with my carry handgun, it is at 7-10 yards combat range, and sometimes at 25 yards..

 

[FullEffect1911]

Does PA have a "handgun firing" requirement (i.e. qualification) for their conceal carry permit?

Negative, it's actually just a simple form you have to fill out and a fee.

Unless you live in Philly.

In simplier terms, if you can hit a sheet of printer paper at 25 yards I would call you competent.

Interesting, that's a pretty big target.

 

[RIATAC45]

I practice my handgun marksmanship on the 60 yard burm with clay pigeons. I figure if I can hit them at that distance (or flip them over) better than 50% of the time that is good enough.

 

[Husker_Fan]

I think it depends on the gun and intended use. I use a six inch .357 for deer hunting and am comfortable taking a single action shot on a broadside deer under perfect conditions at 50 yards. I can keep my shots in the deer's vitals at that range with the iron sights.

SD shooting is another story and done under different circumstances so what is "competent" for that will be different. Most of my shooting like that is done from 7-10 yards, but I do shoot up to 25 yards at the indoor range just to benchmark my marksmanship with different guns.

 

[Old Fuff]

It largely depends on the gun, and what it is going to be used for.

Bullseye target shooters fire slow fire matches outdoors at 50 yards and the best groups are about 3 to 4 inches - and obtained while shooting with one hand.

Metallic Silhouette competitors go out to 200 meters - over twice the length of two football fields placed end-to-end.

Generally, testing a handgun/ammunition combination for accuracy in a machine rest is conducted at 50 yards.

On the other hand some folks won't practice with a pocket-carry pistol or snubby beyond 15 feet because in their view this represents "gun fighting distance." For the record the Old Fuff disagrees with this perspective.

With few exceptions, the potential accuracy of any handgun is greater then the individual shooting it. This human limitation can be reduced through training and practice - and should be.

I have yet to meet a shooter that was competent at longer distances who couldn’t handle shorter ones, but not the other way around.

 

[Manco]

Shooting for precision at longer ranges is good practice for one's fundamental skills, and I'll do some of that with my defensive handgun occasionally, but most of my defensive practice these days is at 7 yards or less, focusing more on speed with sufficient accuracy, particularly while on the move.

When I'm shooting a handgun just for the fun and challenge of it, however, I'll usually shoot a .22 (S&W 617) at 15 or 25 yards or even farther out than that.

 

[CraigC]

My shooting also depends on the particular gun in question and what it will be used for. I try not to limit myself. I am a sportsman sixgunner first and foremost so for me, it really only begins at 25yds. I regularly shoot at varying ranges from point-shooting to paint cans at 100yds or more. Most of my shooting at what most would consider "self defense range" is done without use of the sights.

 

[Sam1911]

When you say "competent," that means a specific thing.

"1. Having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully."

Some guys are competent because they can put a cylinder full into a 6" circle at 100 yards off a rest.

Some are competent because they regularly break 290 on the Bullseye National Match Course.

Some are competent because they can place in the awards running at an IDPA or USPSA match.

Some are competent because they can draw and hit a humanoid target in the "three 3s" -- 3 shots, at 3 yards, in 3 seconds.

Some are competent because they can fight with their sidearm at extreme close range, retaining it and making hits while grappling with an armed adversary.

There's all kinds of different standards.

 

[FullEffect1911]

There's all kinds of different standards.

Indeed, I am hoping to get various people opinions on what they consider handgun competency. I am aware this isn't a black and white thing.

For me I figure when I can split playing cards and powder aspirin tablets at 15 yards with my mkIII I'm on my way. I'm only out to 5-7 yards so far to do it somewhat consistently and on a good day. Some range days are better then others.

For anyone who hasn't tried it before, it sounds more impressive then it actually is. I am really working on becoming as good with my centerfire pistols as I am with my rimfire.

I practice my handgun marksmanship on the 60 yard burm with clay pigeons. I figure if I can hit them at that distance (or flip them over) better than 50% of the time that is good enough.

I do agree that 60 yards on clay pigeons is a fine shot!

On the other hand some folks won't practice with a pocket-carry pistol or snubby beyond 15 feet because in their view this represents "gun fighting distance." For the record the Old Fuff disagrees with this perspective.

Old Fuff, what do you consider to be the maximum practical self defense distance to practice at?

 

[MrWesson]

I practice from 7-25(mostly 10yds) for defensive purposes. 25 is a little long but if you can shoot at 25yds 10 seems like a cakewalk.

If I get the chance I like to shoot at 50yds-100 for fun too. Preferably with a sand/dirt backstop so I can see where I missed.

 

[BCRider]

Anyone that can keep all the shots from a magazine or cylinder on an 8.5x11 paper at 25 yards has the basics down pat. It certainly won't get them onto the Olympic shooting team but it shows that they don't have any truly bad habits. There's obviously still room for improvement but that's just some practice and small alterations in grip and stance away.... or in the case of some of us a set of new eyeballs....

As someone that enjoys the action shooting found in IPSC and IDPA I find that I like the challenge of shooting reasonably accurately but in quick time. I'm pretty new to the shooting sport though so I tend to shoot for accuracy first and speed second. So far this plan has been good enough to put me solidly into the mid to mid-upper portion of the results sheets at the various competitions.

 

[FullEffect1911]

As someone that enjoys the action shooting found in IPSC and IDPA...

In those two shooting sports is there different divisions for 9mm and .45 auto? Otherwise I can't imagine anyone not using the lightest recoiling centerfire they can find.

 

[Sam1911]

In those two shooting sports is there different divisions for 9mm and .45 auto? Otherwise I can't imagine anyone not using the lightest recoiling centerfire they can find.

Yes. In USPSA/IPSC there is a weighted scoring system based on "Major" and "Minor" loadings. In IDPA the various types of firearm are given differing "power floors" their ammo has to meet.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm sure the standards are very high in bulleyes eye shooting and I don't have the expertise to comment.

But for action pistol competition, balancing speed and accuracy, I've taught 3 day classes where there is a reasonable expectation that by the third day students can split a playing card edgewise from 5-7 yards and shoot at a rate of 4-5 shots per second into a 6 inch circle...most students using the common 9mm, .40 or ,45ACP chamberings

When I work with new students, I would expect them to be able to place 5 rounds well within a small post-it (3"x2") after a couple of hours of instruction from the same distance.

When I started in LE, 30+ years ago, part of our regular firearms qualification was several shots from 50 yards. When I shot in PPC, 24 rounds from 50 yards was part of the course...and we shot them in DAO

 

[EddieNFL]

Metallic Silhouette competitors go out to 200 meters - over twice the length of two football fields placed end-to-end.

A few groups have used handguns to shoot the rifle course (out to 500 yds) with impressive results. I've fired my XP100 out to 300 meters. It's a blast, but the eyes aren't what they were.

 

[Old Fuff]

A few groups have used handguns to shoot the rifle course (out to 500 yds) with impressive results. I've fired my XP100 out to 300 meters. It's a blast, but the eyes aren't what they were.

I know, but I was thinking in terms of more conventional handguns, which were more common when I won a 200 meter match shooting a Colt .45 Single Action Army with a 7 1/2" barrel...

It wasn't that I was so good, but rather that the other competitors weren't used to shooting at such distances.

Anyway, that was some years ago, and today my eyes aren't that great either.

 

[EddieNFL]

I could shoot 37-38s with a Redhawk. Shot a 39 once. Switched to a DW (much better sights) and shot a number of 40s.

 

[Old Fuff]

Old Fuff, what do you consider to be the maximum practical self defense distance to practice at?

I have always gone on the theory that the only thing that's predictable about a shooting situation is that the circumstances will be unpredictable.

It used to be that law enforcement officers trained and practiced over a course of fire that covered a distance running from 7 to 50 yards, using B-27 silhouette targets. Some of the men I knew could “ace it” using their back-up Colt Detective Special or S&W M&P .38 snubby.

Guns and stances have changed over the years, but anyone that can operate quickly from point-blank to 10 yards... and with a degree of precision from 10 to 50 yards... with a pistol or revolver that can be carried concealed, is going to be in pretty good shape if push comes to shove.

At close distances you can sacrifice some accuracy in favor of speed, but as the range grows accuracy increases in importance. Real skill also means that you can do whatever needs to be done with both hands, or individually with one or the other.

 

[Hangingrock]

I have an S&W advertisement framed from the nineteen twenties/thirties which refers to “The Long Shooters” a group that conducted 300yd matches with 38Spl revolvers.

Most of my formal shooting has been conducted at 50yds – 25yds & 7yds. The most unforgiving target is the Bullseye target as opposed to IPSC/IDPA humanoid or steel targets with the clang feed back.

Most people can fool themselves in to being competent at spitting distances.

 

[EddieNFL]

The most unforgiving target is the Bullseye target as opposed to IPSC/IDPA humanoid or steel targets with the clang feed back.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Hangingrock]

Apples and oranges.

No it isn’t. It’s all about shot placement and trigger control. Very few individuals learn that at spitting distances. The Modern Technique of the Pistol written by G.B. Morrison with Jeff Cooper, Editorial Adviser points this out clearly. The book maybe dated but the principles still apply.

 

[catnphx]

There is always someone better so I don't get caught-up in trying to outshoot the next guy. I focus on what I will most likely encounter. My focus is between 5-15 yards. If I'm shooting longer than 15 yards then its possible that I'm no longer legally within my rights. It's also likely that I've got some cover when the BG is further than 15 yards.

"Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes" still holds true when you'll most likely need ammo when fighting beyond 15 yards.

That's my opinion and how I train.