Range for handgun competency?

[scaatylobo]

If you read the FBI actuall shooting events,you will note that most shootings happen at between 3 to 10 FEET.

AND most shots fired in the heat of combat MISS at those distances.

Train accordingly.

 

[CraigC]

Guns and stances have changed over the years, but anyone that can operate quickly from point-blank to 10 yards... and with a degree of precision from 10 to 50 yards... with a pistol or revolver that can be carried concealed, is going to be in pretty good shape if push comes to shove.

At close distances you can sacrifice some accuracy in favor of speed, but as the range grows accuracy increases in importance. Real skill also means that you can do whatever needs to be done with both hands, or individually with one or the other.

I think this pretty much sums it up.

If you read the FBI actuall shooting events,you will note that most shootings happen at between 3 to 10 FEET.

AND most shots fired in the heat of combat MISS at those distances.

Train accordingly.

Anybody who understands that "most" gunfights are within 3-10' and "trains accordingly" may find themselves severely lacking in the real situation they find themselves in. Not to mention any other practical use for a handgun.

 

[FullEffect1911]

Anybody who understands that "most" gunfights are within 3-10' and "trains accordingly" may find themselves severely lacking in the real situation they find themselves in. Not to mention any other practical use for a handgun.

While it is true that sometimes a situation will buck the trend, I think I would rather spend the majority of my practice time training the skills I am most likely to need at the ranges I am most likely to use them at. I guess it comes down to time and ammo management at the range.

I do however find it to be a blast to hit a smallish target at 50 yards with a pistol.... and of course intending to hit said target

 

[CraigC]

If you are effective at 25yds, you will be effective at 10ft. However, the reverse is certainly not true. If I had to engage at such a short range, I would not even use the sights but would begin firing as soon as I could level my pistol at the target. Unfortunately, most indoor ranges will not let you practice this type of shooting. Which is a shame.

 

[bigalexe]

On the topic of state requirements for CPL courses...

Michigan has a requirement of hitting a paper 12"x24" or maybe 11.5x24 (whatever it is it's huge) at the staggeringly long range of 7 yards. You have to hit it 5 times in 2 minutes or something like that and I don't think there is a percentage hit requirement, I could probably load up both magazines for my 22A (2x 10rd) and just rip off rounds until I put 5 on paper.

Our requirement probably has more to do with how you handle the gun than it does with how accurate you are.

 

[Old Fuff]

I have always gone on the theory that the only thing that's predictable about a shooting situation is that the circumstances will be unpredictable.

And for this reason I don’t believe it is wise to train exclusively on the basis of, “most gunfights occur at distances of (whatever)." In the highly unlikely chance one might get into trouble, that is not the time to discover that a particular skill or technique you need is one you didn’t learn.

For what it's worth, I have known a small number of what might be called "experienced gun fighters" - and none of them trained/practiced exclusively at 0 to 15 yards, or less.

Anyone that can operate quickly from point-blank to 10 yards... and with a degree of precision from 10 to 50 yards... with a pistol or revolver that can be carried concealed, is going to be in pretty good shape if push comes to shove.

Techniques that work from point-blank to 10 yards should emphasize speed over precise accuracy, although at any distance shot placement is what usually stops an attack. But speed can be increased because the closer the attacker is, the greater likelihood of getting an effective hit. However as distance increases beyond 10 yards the use of these techniques, and the associated emphasize on speed, may translate into unacceptable random hits or even misses. Thus…

… as the range grows accuracy increases in importance.

So different techniques need to be employed, particularly those that focus on a quick – or better – sight picture.

Which is the reason the Old Fuff considered it wise to learn various ways to do things, so that he could employ the “best way” for any given situation. Last but not least…

Real skill also means that you can do whatever needs to be done with both hands, or individually with one or the other.

 

[45Fan]

I consider the pistol in question, and the shooter when considering competence.

I regularly shoot my Blackhawk 7 1/2" @ 25-50 yrds, and stretch that out to 100 yards when I feel like challenging myself. Most of my other pistols I shoot out to 25 yards. With my carry guns, I shoot over a range between 7 feet to 25 yards, with emphasis on ranges under 10 yards. The LCP get quite a bit more attention at the short distances than the 1911s, but I still try to stretch it out to the 25 from time to time.
My wife, on the other hand, hasnt nearly as much time on the trigger as I do, and is still learning to have faith in her knowledge of the basics. Most of her time is spent no further than the 10 yard line. On occasion I get her to try her hand at longer ranges, and she usually does pretty well with targets printed out on standard printer paper.
While she isnt as practiced as I am with her pistols, she is capable of hitting her target and presenting her weapon, but more importantly to me is that she safely handles her weapon.

 

[moxie]

I agree wholeheartedly with old fuff that training needs to be done at different distances. After all, the bad guys are typically rude fellows and aren't going to tell you just where they might be ahead of time. Accordingly, I train at 7, 15, 25, and 50 yards.
But I do concentrate on 7 and 15 the most.
FWIW, the Texas CHL requirement is shooting at 3, 7, and 15 yards.
Equally important is training with different techniques, positions, lighting, etc.

 

[FullEffect1911]

I think my favorite bit of advice about accuracy is, how precise do you need to be to accomplish what you are trying to do? Once that is determined go for that. When that is easily accomplished then do it faster.

I think I sometimes get overly concerned about printing tiny little groups all the time and forget that sometimes "perfection" gets in the way of doing good enough.

Thank you for all the various viewpoints.

 

[Manco]

If you are effective at 25yds, you will be effective at 10ft.

But at 10' it may be advantageous to trade-off some accuracy for speed, and the best way to train for that is at realistic distances (it's also best for training how to move and shooting on the move). Long distance shooting is still valuable for accuracy training, which is vital, and in case you happen to need it, but obviously there is more to defensive shooting than that.

However, the reverse is certainly not true. If I had to engage at such a short range, I would not even use the sights but would begin firing as soon as I could level my pistol at the target. Unfortunately, most indoor ranges will not let you practice this type of shooting. Which is a shame.

Fortunately for me there are ranges nearby where I can at least practice rapid fire (as fast as you can control, and they'll watch to make sure), which is not allowed at many or most public ranges. For everything they won't let me practice, which is still a lot, I use an Airsoft replica of my defensive pistol right at home.

On the topic of state requirements for CPL courses...

Michigan has a requirement of hitting a paper 12"x24" or maybe 11.5x24 (whatever it is it's huge) at the staggeringly long range of 7 yards. You have to hit it 5 times in 2 minutes or something like that and I don't think there is a percentage hit requirement

Geez, I could probably do that with 5 rounds total and my eyes closed, and I mean that literally (the old "muscle memory" should at least put me on paper). I've seen some people miss the paper entirely at even closer ranges, though, so I guess they're "grading on a curve."

 

[MtnSpur]

FWIW, the Texas CHL requirement is shooting at 3, 7, and 15 yards.
Equally important is training with different techniques, positions, lighting, etc.

Additionally the Texas CHL is timed:

3 yard line - 20 shots:

1 shot in 2 seconds, 5 times
2 shots in 3 seconds, 5 times
5 shots in 10 seconds, once

7 yard line - 20 shots:

5 shots in 10 seconds, once
1 shot in 3 seconds, 5 times
2 shots in 4 seconds, once
3 shots in 6 seconds, once
5 shots in 15 seconds, once

15 yard line - 10 shots:

2 shots in 6 seconds, once
3 shots in 9 seconds, once
5 shots in 15 seconds, once

You'd be surprised on how many folks have a tendency to get the jitters on the firing line thinking about the seconds rather than the target.

 

[ForumSurfer]

You'd be surprised on how many folks have a tendency to get the jitters on the firing line thinking about the seconds rather than the target.

The first time I fired timed shots, I had the jitters.

Ever since then I have been aching to try my hand at local competitions.

 

[mrbro]

With my .45s I like to set up some steel targets at 25yds and hit them COM moving from one target to the other.

With my .357 I used to like to sit on the ground and support my wrists on my knees and hit can sized targets at 75 yds. On a good day all cans died. It's been a while since I've done this, I should do it again soon as I really enjoy it.

With my Ruger .22 I'll shoot at the same targets as the .45s but I really don't pay attention to the targets. I'm watching the sights as I shoot and during follow through. This is to help me maintain form and discipline. Everyone needs one of these tools, it will improve your shooting overall.

 

[BossHogg]

25 yards to me is the standard. If I just get on target I'm a happy camper. I ain't getting any younger and them targets seem to be getting smaller. Hell, I'll shoot at about any distance for the fun of it and can hit some of them empty cans some days.

25 yards in to about 3 yards is where most the action is with me. Even when I was younger and hunting with a hand gun 50 yard shots was about my limit, had to be fair to the game.

 

[EddieNFL]

No it isn’t. It’s all about shot placement and trigger control. Very few individuals learn that at spitting distances. The Modern Technique of the Pistol written by G.B. Morrison with Jeff Cooper, Editorial Adviser points this out clearly. The book maybe dated but the principles still apply.

I'm pretty sure trigger control and shot placement are requirements to do well in any discipline. I assure you the tops shots, regardless of the acronym, have mastered both. Action shooting requires mastering a few additional skills.

To do well in a Bullseye competition, I would need to train for a Bullseye competition. Ditto for IPSC/IDPA.

Comparing IPSC/IDPA to 2700 is apples and oranges.

 

[Old Fuff]

Comparing IPSC/IDPA to 2700 is apples and oranges.

It's not a matter of comparing, but rather learning and perfecting marksmanship basics first, and that is what bullseye shooting does. After you have reached the point where you are classified at least Sharpshooter in the 2700 game, you are ready to go on to other things.

Also when it comes to perfecting basics, the Bullseye game has courses using .22 pistols, which make it easier and less expensive to go along the learning curve.

So said Jeff Cooper, who was often frustrated when students came to his training facility at Gunsite with a brand new .45, and little or no previous experience. :banghead:

 

[EddieNFL]

After you have reached the point where you are classified at least Sharpshooter in the 2700 game, you are ready to go on to other things.

Not sure how to respond to that. Maybe, "Once you're classified IDPA Expert or IPSC A Class you are ready to carry a firearm for self-defense?"

Not all "good shots" compete in a specific discipline.

 

[Old Fuff]

I was not referring to competing, although that can be part of the picture. What I was trying to point out is that the principals of basic marksmanship need to be perfected before moving on to combat shooting - games or training/practice for real life. The best way to do this is to go into bullseye target shooting, preferably at a local gun club.

Put it this way, you have to learn to drive a car first, before you can go forward and perfect defensive driving.

I have often observed new shooters with a hi-cap pistol doing double and triple taps, with the bullets going all over the "back forty" because the never learned to shoot accurately in the first place.

 

[tipoc]

Just some thoughts on distance and defensive handgunning, as distinct from handgun hunting or competition;

The 3x3x3 bit is somewhat abstract. If you pay some attention to the shootings that occur around you, in your town and area, you note that they take place at a variety of distances and circumstances. In bars and restaurants, parking lots, homes, workplaces, etc. Note the distances involved.

What is the distance from your front door to the sidewalk? From your back door to the fence? From one side of the kitchen to the other? At work, how close is the nearest co-worker and how far away the furthest in your line of sight? What is the length of a supermarket aisle? The width of their parking lot lanes? The distance from the rest room door to your favorite barstool at the tavern?

These are actual distances in your life. Whether you should take the shot is another question. But if at these varying distances you did have to take a shot and not endanger others by missing regularly, could you? The only way to know is to practice at those distances.

Being "competent" with a handgun, it seems to me, requires more than just shooting and is also situational.

tipoc

 

[EddieNFL]

What I was trying to point out is that the principals of basic marksmanship need to be perfected before moving on to combat shooting - games or training/practice for real life.

Absolutely.

The best way to do this is to go into bullseye target shooting, preferably at a local gun club.

That is certainly one avenue. As I mentioned, I've never shot a 2700 match, but I crawled before I walked. About 40 percent of my rounds are expended practicing fundamentals. Also, as much dryfire as I can find time for.

 

[Old Fuff]

I crawled before I walked. About 40 percent of my rounds are expended practicing fundamentals. Also, as much dryfire as I can find time for.

That's commendable, but if fundamentals are limited to trigger control and sight picture you are missing some things. Also the learning process is easier and much less expensive if you have a .22 caliber pistol in addition to whatever other guns you use.

Back when the Army's Marksmanship Training Unit (MTU) was deeply involved in bullseye shooting (because it was the only game around) they had a marksmanship manual that was about 1/2 to 3/4 inches thick. Regardless of what an individual's intentions are, if they're interested in handgun shooting they should read that book.

 

[EddieNFL]

That's commendable, but if fundamentals are limited to trigger control and sight picture you are missing some things.

You mean like grip, NPA, breath control, follow-through...

I can sum up all things shooting in a single word - consistency.

Also the learning process is easier and much less expensive if you have a .22 caliber pistol in addition to whatever other guns you use.

Odd you mention that. I use a Marvel conversion on one of my Colt frames. Fired a couple hundred rounds this AM. Strong hand/weak hand at 25.

Back when the Army's Marksmanship Training Unit (MTU) was deeply involved in bullseye shooting (because it was the only game around) they had a marksmanship manual that was about 1/2 to 3/4 inches thick. Regardless of what an individual's intentions are, if they're interested in handgun shooting they should read that book.

Good read. Lots others available, as well.

 

[JWJacobVT]

For myself, all of what Sam1911 said April 27th at 12:32. For my basic students first shots, five rounds of 22lr in a 8.5x11 paper at 15 feet. After that work on making that group smaller. Then offer the challenge of targets further away and smaller, having them challenge themselves to do better.....

 

[Kiln]

I disagree with some of the people here, if the engagement happens at 50 yards or more I don't see why you shouldn't be able to escape easily barring a sniper attack or something.

I practice up close because I find it extremely unlikely that some guy will just randomly start shooting at me from 50 yards away. People don't get robbed from 50 yards away, people don't get in arguments where a gun is produced 50 yards away, and violent physical attacks don't happen at a range of 50 yards. Seems to me that being proficient at 50 yards isn't that important IMO.

 

[Old Fuff]

Seems to me that being proficient at 50 yards isn't that important IMO.

It probably isn't...

Unless for some unforeseen reason it became so.

At which point you might wish you had developed the skill to deal with it.

Which is the reason the FBI used to train its agents to effectively use they're sidearms out to 50 yards.

When it comes to skills in relationship to self-defense, you may have too little, but you can never have too much.