Range for handgun competency?

[sm]

Read Old Fuff's posts over and over and over again.

My take is along Old Fuff's.

To which I will add, one has to be able to access the gun, and get it into play quickly and effectively, no matter the make, model, caliber, ammunition , or capacity of gun.

It does not matter how competent one is in shooting, IF one cannot access the gun, and get it into play.

 

[Kiln]

It probably isn't...

Unless for some unforeseen reason it became so.

At which point you might wish you had developed the skill to deal with it.

Which is the reason the FBI used to train its agents to effectively use they're sidearms out to 50 yards.

When it comes to skills in relationship to self-defense, you may have too little, but you can never have too much.

I guess but at 50 yards I'd be focused on escaping, at that distance a shootout likely isn't necessary...i just don't see a drawn out shootout happening on flat ground at 50 yards unless you're a LEO or are in another country serving in the military. Too many people have the frame of mind that they're going to be in some Hollywood western shootout with no means of escape...if the option is available I'm getting the hell out of there not staying to have a firefight. I can't think of any reason someone would be shooting at you at that range unless you're being attacked by a crazed sniper and in that case there's no way I'm going to try to shoot out with him rifle vs. pistol.

 

[Old Fuff]

What you have to look out for is circumstances you didn't expect and plan or train for.

In one instance I know of that happened in a desert area of southeast Arizona, an individual unexpectedly came under fire, and in return laid down some counterfire that pined down the attacker long enough so he could withdraw. The attacker was apparently shooting a rifle. The individual only had a handgun, but he was too dumb to know he was hopelessly outguned.

However he was a competent handgunner, and he survived.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Seems to me that being proficient at 50 yards isn't that important IMO.

50 yards is where you really see the mistakes you are making with your sight alignment and trigger control. Shooting at inside of 7 yards (21 feet) you can fool yourself that you are really pressing the trigger properly...it is amazing how shooter deteriorate just going back to 25 yards.

I've taken to shooting single shots into 1" dots at 7 yards to see how well I'm doing. They isn't much lying when they is only one shot per dot...either you're in the center or your not. You also have to remember that however well you think that your are shooting, your skill level will usually be a lot worst when under stress...usually twice as bad

 

[murf]

8 moa is my standard of accuracy. that is all six shots from my revolver inside a pie plate at 100 yards (8 inches), inside two inches at 25 yards, inside 2/3" at 7 yards. i shoot all my pistols offhand. sometimes with two hands, sometimes with one and once in a while, with my off hand.

my main goal is to shoot enough to get comfortable enough with my weapon so it becomes an extension of my arm(s). so i don't have to think about the basics, just the situation at hand.

murf

 

[Kiln]

8 moa is my standard of accuracy. that is all six shots from my revolver inside a pie plate at 100 yards (8 inches), inside two inches at 25 yards, inside 2/3" at 7 yards. i shoot all my pistols offhand. sometimes with two hands, sometimes with one and once in a while, with my off hand.

my main goal is to shoot enough to get comfortable enough with my weapon so it becomes an extension of my arm(s). so i don't have to think about the basics, just the situation at hand.

murf

I'm not technically saying that you're lying but I find that kind of accuracy from a handgun a little hard to believe at that distance.

 

[mljdeckard]

I am of the philosophy that for defensive handgun uses, it's mostly short-range. I think that situations where you have to shoot longer ranges, AND you can say that you were in legitimate fear for your life are pretty rare. (I didn't say impossible.) The army says that the effective range of an M-9 pistol is 50 yards. I think this is pretty optimistic, not because of the limits of the gun or the ammo, but mostly because the army's pistol training isn't even pathetic.

If I am engaging targets past 25-35 yards, fighting for my life, I am more likely to be putting down cover to get back to my rifle. (Which is in my truck most of the time.)

 

[EddieNFL]

When it comes to skills in relationship to self-defense, you may have too little, but you can never have too much.

One of life's truisms.

 

[Old Fuff]

8 moa is my standard of accuracy. that is all six shots from my revolver inside a pie plate at 100 yards (8 inches), inside two inches at 25 yards, inside 2/3" at 7 yards.

I'm not technically saying that you're lying but I find that kind of accuracy from a handgun a little hard to believe at that distance.

I can't speak to the shooter's ability, but any number of quality revolvers I know of can meet the numbers quoted above when the gun is mounted in a machine rest to eliminate human error.

 

[CraigC]

I'm not technically saying that you're lying but I find that kind of accuracy from a handgun a little hard to believe at that distance.

Of course you do, that's what happens when you only practice at contact distance. Move that target out and actually learn how to shoot. Not all shooting should be in preparation for a gun battle across a dark alley.

I can't think of any reason someone would be shooting at you at that range unless you're being attacked by a crazed sniper and in that case there's no way I'm going to try to shoot out with him rifle vs. pistol.

As has been stated, the unexpected will always bite you in the posterior. In the only situation I ever found myself in where I might have to shoot somebody, the aggressor was 30yds away, standing on his porch with a rifle. I was standing in the open wearing a 50lb toolbelt with a Keltec .32ACP in my pocket. It was late in the hot afternoon and I was wore out. I wasn't "running" anywhere and had nowhere to run to anyway. If there ever was a man with the devil by the tail, it was me on that day. Had the wannabe 1%-er not been simply posturing, things would probably be very different today. As has been stated, there's no way to predict what will happen, when and under what conditions. The only thing you can assume is that you WON'T see it coming. All you can do is hope for the best and train for the worst. Which brings us to the next nugget of wisdom....

When it comes to skills in relationship to self-defense, you may have too little, but you can never have too much.

 

[Kiln]

I practice shooting at ranges of 50 yards on occasion I'm just saying that unless you're into competetive shooting its less important than some posters seem to think. Do I sit and shoot 50 yard targets every time I shoot? No but that doesn't mean I'm totally inept with a handgun.

100 yards is rifle range IMO and I'm not even going to bother with a handgun at that range. By all means if you want to spend alot of time becoming an amazing shot with a handgun at 100 yards feel free but if you're shooting that distance you might as well be holding a long gun and make it way easier.

From a bench hitting targets that far off may be easily done but firing with the off hand and one handed I'm not buying it, I have a feeling that there are alot of internet shooters around here that tend to exaggerate alot.

There's alot of: I can shoot the ass off a fly at 100 yards with my 9mm type of B.S. around this forum and hey if you guys wanna blow smoke up someone's ass thats fine but by all means provide video of it if you can shoot those distances. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying that alot of people shoot targets from three feet away and then post pics of how they nailed the target at 100 yards on internet forums and this one is no different.

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff will admit that he is unlikely to hit a housefly at 100 yards, and if he does it was an accident...

That said, if one has mastered the basics of handgun marksmanship, it is no harder to shoot something at 100 yards then it is to do the same at 25...

You need to do two things. First get over the mental attitude that you can't do it, and second, learn the trajectory of the cartridge/handgun combination you are using.

Using this not particularly difficult method when the Old Fuff was a young one, he would show off by dropping 5 or 6 shots from his Detective Special into the K-Zone of a B-27 silhouette target at 100 measured yards. The trick was to carefully align the sights at the top of the target's head, and the bullet's trajectory would drop it into the upper/middle of the chest area. Once I had established this aiming point the rest was easy, and extensive practice (at least at 100 yards) wasn't necessary.

Some years later I learned to hit metallic silhouette ram targets (about the size of a German Shepard) at 200 meters, which is a bit over 200 yards, shooting two-handed offhand. I did so with a number of different revolvers (including a Colt .45 SAA with a 7 1/2" barrel) and my target grade .45 Colt 1911 pistol. I started by setting up a target cosisting of 2 full-sheet pages from a newspaper, with a smaller target for an aiming point located just below the top. I quickly discovered my shots were falling about 60" below my point-of-aim, so I lifted the front sight in the rear sight notch to compensate. Once I knew what sight picture to use in relationship to my point-of-aim I was good to go.

Could I hit a standing man at over 200 yards? Put it this way, a man is a lot larger then a german shepard, and if I couldn't hit him I could make him a bit unconfortable...

As a practical matter this would be unlikely, but it didn't involve a lot of practice at this distance to perfect the skill.

Now Klin may say that this is all a prime example of Internet B.S., but should he say it to anyone that has been a Handgun Metallic Silhouette competitor they will just grin at him.

 

[CraigC]

We may disagree quite often but I sure as hell wouldn't stand 200yds away and let you shoot at me! Not even with a little Colt Detective Special.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I regularly shoot steel drums at up to 130 yards (the furthest my impromptu range allows because of trees). That's a rather large target, but with good sights it's an easy hit.

As for actual training, I think anything short of 15 yards is just a waste of time. The only exception would be double-tapping where you really have to start close and work your way back as you master it. Of course, once mastered it would again be a waste of time to shoot at close range. Back off to 15 or 20 yards.

I really don't understand the propensity to shoot at 7 yards. You're not learning anything. A child can center a group at 7 yards. Back off to 15 yards and when you're satisfied with that, back off to 20 yards, then 25.

The argument that gun fights happen at close range makes no sense in regards to training. If you can draw and hit a target at 25 yards, then you can draw and hit a target at 5 or 7 yards with ridiculous ease. The opposite is not true, so why waste your money and time shooting at close range?

 

[Old Fuff]

We may disagree, but I have no intention of shooting at you. Doing so would upset a whole bunch of moderators...

What I want to do is take the mystery out of long range (over 50 yards) shooting, because once one understands how it is done, and dumps the “it can’t be done,” attitude, it becomes quite easy. It obviously doesn’t require super-human ability, and it is particularly common in the western states where there is plenty of room to safely shoot at extended distances.

You can use a semi-automatic pistol, but a quality revolver with adjustable sights and at least a 6-inch barrel, chambered in .357 Magnum on the low end, and .45 Colt on the high, is a better choice. Avoid barrel lengths over 8-inches. A magnum cartridge, which offers a flatter trajectory may be advantageous, but isn’t necessary – and the additional recoil may work against you, especially if you are shooting a traditional Single Action with a “plow handle” grip. Ruger’s Bisley style is better in preventing vertical stringing.

Ordinary .38 Special service revolvers are good-to-go out to 150 yards or a bit further, provided they have an older style “pencil” barrel with a high front sight blade, which will allow holding up the blade in the rear sight notch to compensate for the bullet’s drop.

My point: An extra expensive custom handgun may be nice, but isn’t necessary.

Basic marksmanship skills are necessary, but they can be learned and perfected at distances as short as 50-feet (indoor ranges) or 25 yards (outdoors). Here, a pistol or revolver chambered in .22 LR is an ideal learning tool, as an understudy to your larger caliber guns.

In my view, long range handgun shooting is unlikely to come into play in a self-defense context, but it can happen, and obtaining the ability to use it if necessary is neither expensive nor difficult to learn.

 

[murf]

kiln, i really don't care whether you believe me or not. most people don't. by the way, what is your standard of accuracy? everyone should have their own standard. and as you get better that standard should change.

9mm hit on a very important point regarding accuracy. at 7 yards you should be aiming at a point on the target that is 1/2" in diameter. if you aim at the COM circle on the target, you will miss a lot. if you draw a 1/2" dot in the middle of the COM circle and aim for that dot, all your shots will go inside the COM circle. try it both ways and see if i'm right. start shooting for the belly button not the whole belly. fwiw

murf

 

[Kiln]

Okay regardless of the extreme distances that you all may or may not be able to shoot, the question the OP asked is "what range you feel is the range people should shoot at to see if they are competent with a handgun?"

I don't think you have to be able to hit a target at 100 yards away to be considered competent with a handgun and I'm sure that the majority of people would agree with me. The maximum I would say is about 50 yards and the minimum you should be comfortable with is about 25.

 

[cavman]

8 moa is my standard of accuracy. that is all six shots from my revolver inside a pie plate at 100 yards (8 inches), inside two inches at 25 yards, inside 2/3" at 7 yards. i shoot all my pistols offhand. sometimes with two hands, sometimes with one and once in a while, with my off hand.

my main goal is to shoot enough to get comfortable enough with my weapon so it becomes an extension of my arm(s). so i don't have to think about the basics, just the situation at hand.

murf

I'm not technically saying that you're lying but I find that kind of accuracy from a handgun a little hard to believe at that distance.

Bullseye shooting is done at 50 yards with just the one hand, unsupported, out stretched by rule. The 10-ring is 3", the 9-ring is 5". The guy I was scoring on my left (during the 1911 .45 part of the match last weekend) shot a 98 with the 2 nines really close to the 10-ring. Then the targets are brought into 25 yards, where most of us are still going for 10s, but the good guys are going for the x-ring tie breakers. The x-ring is ~1 3/4".

I don't know murf from Adam, but from what I see every weekend, those goals sound pretty reasonable.

 

[Claymore1500]

I disagree with some of the people here, if the engagement happens at 50 yards or more I don't see why you shouldn't be able to escape easily barring a sniper attack or something.

I practice up close because I find it extremely unlikely that some guy will just randomly start shooting at me from 50 yards away. People don't get robbed from 50 yards away, people don't get in arguments where a gun is produced 50 yards away, and violent physical attacks don't happen at a range of 50 yards. Seems to me that being proficient at 50 yards isn't that important IMO.

Here is a quick senario in which you might wish you had put a little more time in long distance practise.

You are returning to the car, after putting the shopping cart in the cart corral, you look three isles over to see some bad guy trying to gain access to your car, you know, the one with your wife and child inside, you have the gun but are 50 to 75 yards away, and the bad guy ain't waitin' for you to get closer, but you are not sure you can make the shot because you have only 7 yard practise under your belt, What do you do?

In other words, it may not ALWAYS be you that is in need of protection.

 

[Kiln]

Here is a quick senario in which you might wish you had put a little more time in long distance practise.

You are returning to the car, after putting the shopping cart in the cart corral, you look three isles over to see some bad guy trying to gain access to your car, you know, the one with your wife and child inside, you have the gun but are 50 to 75 yards away, and the bad guy ain't waitin' for you to get closer, but you are not sure you can make the shot because you have only 7 yard practise under your belt, What do you do?

In other words, it may not ALWAYS be you that is in need of protection.

Thats not a scenario in which I would even fire my weapon until getting extremely close, its a parking lot and therefore impossible to know if anyone else may be hit in the case that you do miss or if by some chance the shot passes through the target. If you are under stress you're much more likely to miss than at the range.

I NEVER said I didn't practice outside of 7 yards, i just do so less frequently than at close range because the majority of attacks happen at close range. The fact is that no matter how confident I was I would never fire a gun in a parking lot unless I was basically guaranteed to hit because in the real world you should consider the chances of injuring someone else. You are responsible for considering the safety of other people even when protecting your family.

 

[Ankeny]

FWIW, this thread is riddled with more testosterone than it is with good information.

 

[Kiln]

FWIW, this thread is riddled with more testosterone than it is with good information.

Maybe its because of all the gun forum elitists around here who think you're incompetent if you can't get a good group at 100 yards with a pistol.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Okay regardless of the extreme distances that you all may or may not be able to shoot, the question the OP asked is "what range you feel is the range people should shoot at to see if they are competent with a handgun?"

25 yards with any duty sized pistol. Perhaps 15 for a pocket rocket, but even here I'd back off when I got better with the pistol.

MURF makes a very good point about having an aiming dot and everyone should go up to post 66 and read what he says. If you don't have a well defined aiming point, you're wasting much of your effort. You can't know how accurate you are if you're just aiming at a big black mass.

Probably the best thing I ever did was to make some steel plates in various sizes. The one I shoot the most is about 6" in diameter. I hang it at 25 yards and shoot rapid fire. The "ding" gives me instant feedback and is a sort of Pavlovian thing - you know when you're hitting and when you're not while you're shooting the string. This means you can make adjustments as you shoot.

This is the first one made and it's actually poorly designed because the hooks are exposed. Better to weld the hooks on the back so you don't shoot them off - also, welding them on the back makes the plate hang at a downward angle reducing the odds of a piece of metal coming back at you.

 

[KodiakBeer]

I NEVER said I didn't practice outside of 7 yards, i just do so less frequently than at close range because the majority of attacks happen at close range.

This argument just doesn't make any sense to me. If you train at 20 or 25 yards, then a hit at 7 yards becomes extremely easy. Training at longer range sharpens your skills at anything less than that range. The opposite is not true.

 

[CraigC]

FWIW, this thread is riddled with more testosterone than it is with good information.

Funny how two people can read the exact same thing and come away with two completely different perceptions of what they read.

Maybe its because of all the gun forum elitists around here who think you're incompetent if you can't get a good group at 100 yards with a pistol.

And to think those folks you condescendingly refer to as "elitists" are only trying to help you and broaden your horizons. Some days I really don't know why I bother.