Range incident - opinions wanted

[easyg]

I think Joe needs to mind his own business.

Edited to add: and I don't care how old Joe is.

I agree 100%.

If Joe wants to enforce gun laws then he should join the BATF.
Otherwise, he should just mind his own business.


I also don't give respect based upon age alone.
I've met too many elderly idiots and too many elderly jerks.

 

[Hatterasguy]

This is why I pay to shoot at essentially a private range, so I don't have to deal with crap like this.

All I can say is I don't care, shoot at a place where you don't have to deal with busy body's and people with big egos.

Frankly its not anyones business what anyone else is shooting as long as they are safe and within the range rules. Unless they are part of the BATF. I would have simply told this "Joe" guy to mind his own business or produce a BATF/LEO badge.

 

[gearhead]

"I was raised to not judge merit to someone based on their age"

It's not about merit, it's about manners. I guess we were raised differently.

John

I was raised in the Deep South with all the attendant customs and politeness. Now that I have some silver in my own hair I HATE when someone acts deferential of me because I'm on the north side of 50. Respect given to someone purely because he or she was fortunate enough to live a long life is meaningless, any respect must be earned.

 

[Nushif]

Wouldn't it be ... south of 50 .... Hehe ... get it?

 

[jcwit]

If in fact "Jim" is a Certified NRA Instructor he should also realize that he MUST follow the SOP"s of any range he happenes to be at. Jim was in the wrong from the beginning, whether he is Certified or not.

I know "Certified" auto mechanics who would be challenged to to do an oil change.

 

[jcwit]

I also don't give respect based upon age alone.
I've met too many elderly idiots and too many elderly jerks.

I've also met many, many youthful idiots and way to many youthful jerks.

In the beginning Joe was only attempting to keep the accepted range safety rules in force. Mayhap he should have said nothing while Jim played with his firearm with others downrange.

That could've turned out good! Right?

 

[jcwit]

One last thought, Jims great choice of words in front of his daughter, no matter what her age is, says a whole lot about his charactor. Real good example of todays parenting.

 

[481]

Mind your own business as a rule for me.

Agreed.

Seems like this little piece of ettiquette is less and less frequently employed.

Unless something really egregious is happening, I leave people to their pursuits and expect the same from them.

As some have said above, when I go to a range to shoot, I am there to shoot, not to answer personal questions about myself and/or any guest that I may have with me, what I have or am shooting. Folks can and have been robbed and/or assaulted for what they have and the less I broadcast about what I have the better off I am.

Of course, we should always act when unsafe practices are displayed and doing so diplomatically is a skill worth its weight in good nature, but outside of that when one has a limited time/opportunity to get a little shooting in nothing is more annoying than someone looking for a little company.

 

[Justin Holder]

There are too many people that think they know better than everyone else, and they never miss an opportunity to point that out.

Let me worry about me.

 

[easyg]

If in fact "Jim" is a Certified NRA Instructor he should also realize that he MUST follow the SOP"s of any range he happenes to be at. Jim was in the wrong from the beginning, whether he is Certified or not.

Maybe so....but why did Joe even go over and inquire about the kids age?

He had an agenda.
He sounds like nothing more than a cop wannabe.

I can't stand self appointed "hallway monitors".

 

[MinnMooney]

I think that the O.P. was correct in his assessment of the two.

There are "Joe"s at every range who insist on bestowing their knowledge to everyone else at the range.
I have a couple of "Joe"s at the Minnesota Rifle Club. One came over almost immediately when a .223 round got stuck in my son's new RR Arms AR-15. We couldn't get the bolt opened at first so Joe pulled out his leatherman and almost forced his way between my son & me so he could jam his tool into the boltface and pry it open! I had to literally grab him and yell for him to stop. It got the attention of several other shooters. He finally gave up w/o marring my son's new rifle and we opened the bolt with no tools.

Unless a shooter is being dangerous, the others at the range should butt out unless they are asked for an opinion. Maybe Jim over reacted maybe not. You'd have to had been right there for both sides of the escalation to judge.

 

[jcwit]

Let me worry about me.

Not if you're doing unsafe acts at the firing line with other shooters at the line or down range.

Of course, we should always act when unsafe practices are displayed and doing so diplomatically is a skill worth its weight in good nature,

Its clearly obvious "Jim" was acting far from diplomatically with his remark "OK I GOT IT. As I stated the ranges SOP, Standard Operating Procedures, is what Jim should have
been abiding by, which he wasn't. For being a Certified NRA Instructor he needs to bone up on the NRA rules, and safety rules.

For those that do not understand this, all I can say is take a course from the NRA, you might learn something.

 

[fluffy]

another good reason not to live in new york.

 

[jcwit]

Very good observation there fluffy.

 

[Snowdog]

Mind your own business as a rule for me.

Unless I foresee an injury likely to happen, I also follow this rule.
Most folks know what they're doing and some of those who don't learn best from their own mistake. If it's obvious someone needs help, of course I'll help. Otherwise, as long as no one gets hurt, let the cards fall where they may.

 

[parsimonious_instead]

Gearhead: I'm pretty much in your camp on this one... however, I think there's a difference between being overly deferential because of someone's age, and realizing that's there's something kinda wrong about disproportionately responding to an elderly busybody. I just think "Jim" could have used the "soft power" of saying "please MYOB" instead of unleashing a truly unsettling and disgusting tirade. The fact that it was directed at an 81 year old man made it even worse to me.
It's like when I see people car-horn bullying a timid elderly driver on the road or in a parking lot. Do these selfish jerks really think that beeping will magically make these people regain their eyesight and confidence on the road? Not to mention that it might startle them into doing something unsafe just to make the honking stop?

Snowdog:

What's interesting is that "Joe" bothered me about the caliber I was shooting (not really a good reason to bother me, since the RSO over at the 'clubhouse' can easily hear if someone's shooting
a gun with too much punch and intervene),
reminded "Jim" about the 'step away from the line' rule (legitimate reminder of an important safety rule)
reminded "Joe" about the supposed finer points of NYS law (busybody mode)

I agree that ranges are at their best when everybody MYOB unless it's saying "hello" or pointing out a safety issue.
This place really is like that, except we had the worst combination possible - a hothead and a busybody.

 

[Fremmer]

I think there's a difference between being overly deferential because of someone's age, and realizing that's there's something kinda wrong about disproportionately responding to an elderly busybody. I just think "Jim" could have used the "soft power" of saying "please MYOB" instead of unleashing a truly unsettling and disgusting tirade. The fact that it was directed at an 81 year old man made it even worse to me.

Disproportionate? Because a busybody is older? I don't care how old, young, rich, poor, smart, or dumb he is, he needs to mind his own business. Period. Tell me, why couldn't Joe just let Jim and his daughter have a good time? Soft power? A busybody like Joe won't mind his own business unless he's told to mind his own business, and guys like that very often won't stop pushing and squawking and poking unless they are forcefully told to mind thier own business.

How about this: I'll bet that Joe doesn't mess with Jim again. Because Joe now knows that Jim won't tolerate a busybody. That's what it takes for some guys like Joe: they won't stop meddling until somebody gives them a clear (and loud) message to mind their own business. Some guys like Joe seem to require that, and a "soft" message isn't enough. JMHO.

 

[jcwit]

I'm sorry but someone acting like Jim did in the beginning in an unsafe manner, then using language in mixed company would be reported and no longer welcome at the range I frequent. Furthermore more than likely if he was a member his swipe card would no longer open the gate. Maybe Joe did come on a little strong but safety is of prime importance, and if Jim doesn't like it he more then welcome to leave and take his toilet mouth with him. Jim may be a Certified whatever but he is far from a class act and I hope not the ordinary NRA Instructor.

I should hope that Joe continues his quest for safety.

I shall now let you youngsters argue in Jims favor.

 

[Spencer_OKC]

Sounds like a collision of two a**holes.

Joe needs to mind his own business unless he is addressing a safety concern,

and

Jim needs to learn how to control his temper.


It is much easier to deal with someone like Joe by just nodding your head while smiling and walking away. "Thank you for the information, and if I need any more information I'll be sure to ask you for it."

 

[toivo]

FWIW, I'm pretty sure Joe is right in regards to New York State law. The NRA card means nothing: if the guy's daughter doesn't have her pistol permit, she can't touch his or anybody else's handguns.

That doesn't mean that Joe isn't a busybody, but there's also the fact that a lot of suburban communities are hostile to gun ranges and in many cases are trying to get them shut down. This makes range owners and clubs understandably nervous about legally questionable activity. It sucks, but it's reality.

 

[Cosmoline]

Unless it's an actual safety violation, folks really need to mind their own business. There's really no room for this kind of nonsense on a live firing line. It's distracting to those involved and obviously distracted the OP enough to prompt a thread about it. That alone is reason enough not to do this sort of thing at the range.

I should hope that Joe continues his quest for safety.

Violating an absurd provision of an idiotic state law isn't a safety violation. If Joe thinks it should be brought up, he should do so OFF the line, where nobody is concentrating on shooting.

 

[Gouranga]

I guess it depends a lot on the range you go to. At the one I frequent, you pay by the half hour. It is all electronic, so there are rarely hold fires called on the range. We have a full time RSO who deals with any safety issues. Someone stopping me to chat with me is costing me me $$. If you want to chat after I pay, or before the clock starts, that is fine, otherwise time is money.

IMO, it is one thing if the older fellow is addressing a safety concern that could be endangering the shooter or someone else on the range. It is something completely different to try to pretend you are the police and haggle someone on the letter of the law. I was brought up to respect elders and they always start such a discussion with a full measure of that respect, however, someone getting in my business like Joe was with this guy, would quickly begin to erode that full measure of respect.

It would also matter how often Jim had been there, how often Joe bugged him, etc. Jim may have just been having a REAL long day, gets to the range to unwind and then has Joe in his face.

 

[jcwit]

Violating an absurd provision of an idiotic state law isn't a safety violation. If Joe thinks it should be brought up, he should do so OFF the line, where nobody is concentrating on shooting.

This was what I was referring to as a safety violation.

Note that we have a rule here that I'm sure a lot of ranges have, as well - when people go out and change/setup/break down targets, everyone steps back from the firing line and no weapons are handled.

"Jim" seemed like a perfectly fine fellow at first. When I greeted him during target setup, we talked about the guns we brought with us. Everything seemed OK with the guy, although he answered my questions with a slightly unusual degree of zeal.

Once our targets were set, we took up our guns and shot them. During another break, I heard "Jim" say something like, "OKAY! I Got IT!" when "Joe" most likely reminded him about the "step away" rule.

Does it make it a little clearer now?

 

[Justin Holder]

State of residence aside, if someone walked up to me and started telling me what I can and can't teach my own daughter, I'd get a little annoyed as well.


I think the fact it was Jim's daughter that Joe had the problem with is what set Jim off.

You just don't mess with some peoples kids.

 

[coloradokevin]

Just one of a gazillion friction points in the world of man in action. Discuss for fun but hope it simmers down and can be remembered as random noise.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

As I read the OP's story, I was quicky reminded of some similar human-on-human conflicts I've observed at the local dog park. In the vast majority of these dog park incidents I've minded my own business, and chocked the situation up to someone else's fight. Occasionally I've stepped in for the underdog, such as an instance that happened where a female friend of mine was being threatened by an aggressive and overzealous male at the park, or when I saw a nasty old lady attempting to "officially" kick a nice family out of the park, despite having no authority to do so.

Range incidents often involve the same type of human v. human drama, though the presence of guns at the firing line seem to make these incidents a bit more tense (safety violations, etc). In this case "Joe" should have minded his own business, and "Jim" should have been mature enough to ignore the annoying statements made by Joe.