Raw footage: 2 vs 1 in mall (WARNING: Graphic violence)

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conw

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Let's analyze this video.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fd7_1284690688

Summary: in a mall entrance, three men burst through the door. The apparent victim is armed, as is at least one of the two men attempting to kill him. After about a minute of struggling, he is lying still in a pool of blood on the floor and the two men leave.

There is no accompanying article, no clear-cut "right or wrong" (we don't know if he initiated it or was ambushed or what), no real room for irrelevant legal analysis or critique of pre-fight tactics.

So let's analyze the fight itself. What did he do right, if anything? What did he do wrong, if anything? Did he have a chance? If not, why not; if so, how? What would you do differently? What did you notice about the attackers' strategy?
 
Disturbing video.

There isn't much to go on as your questions go. The video shows the deceased shot multipul times, trying to fight back, then getting shot many many more times. There is not much he could have done.

You should put a graphic warning before the video, I wasn't expecting that level of brutality when clicking this thread. I was expecting more of a fist fight than an execution.
 
What is there to analyze? Looks as if its just another video of some thugs knocking down another, then executing him. Anything else to ponder? Not very THR if you ask me.
 
Without any back story it's very difficult to analyze what happened here.

If you can find some more info maybe worth discussing but on the surface it looks like gang combat, not self defense.
 
I wasn't expecting that level of brutality when clicking this thread

Lesson number one - street violence, real violence, is NOT the sanitized scripted thing that appears on teevee or the movie screen. Best adapt your mindset to deal with that reality in advance of need.

I was an EMT for six years, and there were times the fire department had to be called to a scene to hose the blood out of the street. I recall one run where an old man who ran a small rural convenience store was ambushed in a robbery attempt on his arrival at his home, in a detached garage. His assailant had picked up a short piece of 2X4, and struck the old man in the head with it as he got out of his truck. The old man carried a Colt Detective Special in a pocket, and got off a shot after he was struck. His assailant fled at the shot. Scalp wounds bleed profusely as a rule, and there was a trail of blood that looked like spilled barn paint from the garage to the man's house in this case.

It was a warm humid early fall night in central AL, and the coppery reek of blood was so strong on that particular scene it was almost nauseating. We treated the old man on the scene and transported him to the hospital, later news revealed that his assailant had appeared at an emergency room a couple of counties away with a through-and-through gunshot wound to the neck. But no critical structures had been injured, the 158 grain round nose bullet that was a common .38 Spl load at the time merely nosed its way through and did no significant damage. But it DID end the attack definitively. Since we'd had a call not long before where another old man who was unarmed literally had his brains beaten out with a stick of stovewood in a different robbery by a different assailant, the outcome for this particular old man was stellar by comparison.

As to the video, apparently the shooting started outside the doors, if the reaction of White Cap Dude at about 00.08 is any indication. That, plus the fact that Black Hoodie Dude (BHD) is bleeding significantly when he first hits the floor at about 00.13, and it looks like White Hoodie Dude (WHD) is busy racking the slide on an apparently jammed pistol as he first comes through the door in pursuit of BHD. BHD makes about three attempts to draw his pistol without pulling up his cover garment as he writhes on the floor, WHD sees what he's doing and pounces on him, stripping him of his pistol and tossing it toward the door, where it is retrieved by Down Jacket Dude (DJD) and used to continue the assault on BHD.

Even after losing his pistol, BHD continues to struggle with WHD and DJD but apparently has no other weapon at hand to effectively fight back with at that point.

Violence looks like that. It happens quickly and brutally and absolutely mercilessly. If you have to defend yourself on the street or in your home against criminal attack, this is what you are likely to have to defend against. Be prepared...
 
A note upon reopening this thread...

I respectfully disagree that there is nothing of use to be gleaned here. I think there is a lesson or two to be learned from this, as disturbing as it might be to some people. Self defense IS very often indistinguishable from combat. I think in this case the term intended was "mutual combat," which is a legal term for a fight between people who had an ongoing and mutual hostile relationship, and if so that probably was the case here. But that deals with the cause of the violence. The nature of the violence, and the attempt by BHD to defend himself from the attack, is what we are examining here.

I will however change the thread title to reflect the graphic nature of the footage.

ETA after changing title...

Please note that gang members DO NOT restrict the use of violence strictly to other members of other gangs. If for whatever reason you get crosswise with WHD and DJD on the street, there is no reason to assume they will treat you any differently than they did BHD as the situation evolves.

While this is indeed a depiction of apparent thug on thug violence, there is absolutely no reason to assume that the same kind of thing cannot happen to anyone here, if things go wrong. Feel free to disagree if you like, but at least justify your disagreement better than by saying "naaaaah, that won't happen to real people."
 
i feel like I've seen this before, and i think the last place I saw it mentioned something about it being gang related and that both parties were criminals fighting it out
 
SimplyChad said:
Why did he wait until he was thrown through the door and on the floor before he went for his gun?
Click to expand...

Maybe he forgot about it, or maybe he was attempting to escape. In my opinion, as far as the video footage went, he went for it too soon. Drawing a gun won't stop 1-2 guys from shooting you on the floor at point blank range.

GMcBoozer said:
There is not much he could have done.
Click to expand...

I disagree. He clearly made some decision-making mistakes. Attempting to draw his gun instead of get up off the floor was one. Another was not attempting to control his opponent's gun.

By the way I'm sorry for not giving a "graphic warning" but I did describe it and I don't think my description sold the brutality short.

JoeSloemo said:
Not much to analyze as it appears the gent was shot prior to coming into view of the camera.
Click to expand...

He may well have been. He continued to fight, albeit somewhat poorly, well after being shot. I don't see how this means there is zero room for analysis. Guns aren't death lasers.

memphisjim said:
it appears that the guy that got shot was more in flight mode then fight mode
Click to expand...

This is a good observation. He clearly took a very long time to "switch" from running, to drawing his gun. I'm not implying that drawing his gun was an appropriate decision there, but I do feel it signified a phase shift.

Lee Lapin said:
Violence looks like that. It happens quickly and brutally and absolutely mercilessly. If you have to defend yourself on the street or in your home against criminal attack, this is what you are likely to have to defend against. Be prepared...
Click to expand...

This was what I was getting at. I don't see how the actions and pre-fight conditions somehow render the violence irrelevant. There are only so many ways humans can beat, kick, hit, shoot, or stab one another, and there are commonalities in nearly all types of violence. While knowledge of the pre-fight conditions may be useful for further analysis, I don't believe they are a prerequisite for analyzing the fight.
 
conwict said:
He clearly made some decision-making mistakes. Attempting to draw his gun instead of get up off the floor was one. Another was not attempting to control his opponent's gun.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree with this statement. Many people don't understand how hard it is to get up and control a weapon. It is MUCH MUCH easier to do it standing (and that is even assuming the individual has a clue what it is they need to do). Now add in the fact that he was injured and possibly seriously injured. The gunman appeared to have a jam and had no clue how to clear the issue and the victim could have certainly had time to draw his weapon had he made a clean draw and was a little more decisive.

IF he would have some how been quick enough to still get up despite his injury I think you could make a better argument he should have started to use a nike defense while drawing his weapon and find cover to return fire. If he was able to get up and decide to go for the gun are you going to wrestle around for a few seconds while the second assailant is putting rounds into you? No thanks, I'll pass.
 
conwict and AOK,

That just shows how a comprehensive training and practice program is really key in true self defense. A fight to save your life is rarely going to be with 1 stationary target at 7 yards in a well lite area. Unfortunately that's how ranges are set up, so that's how a lot of people train. I won't say they're setting themselves up for failure. But they are setting themselves up for success in a very limited manner.
 
From the video I can see neither of them knew how to fight with their hands or feet.

The one in yellow (or white or whatever that color is) had his gun jam alot and there were opportunities for the guy on the ground to do some real hard kicking for his legs or leg traps.)

This also shows you why MMA ground fighting, while good on one-to-one, is not so good when the other guy has friends.

Deaf
 
He was bleeding profusely when he came through the door. He wouldn't have been able to run far the way he was leaking. It just shows how inept the attackers were for taking so long to finish him off.
 
My take aways:

1. Wear a holster. It took the guy on the ground almost 5 seconds to get to his gun after digging around tying to find it. A holster that would have held it in place may have given him fast enough access to it to survive.

2. As John Farnam say "Don't dither". The guy in the white hoody spends at least 8 seconds trying to figure out his malfunction, the guy on the ground lies there for a while then tries to find his gun.
 
Who knows just how badly injured the guy on the ground was while he was trying to muster up his last chance at getting his gun drawn to stay with our world as we know it.
The guy was already pretty hurt when he made into the mall.
What a wretched death this soul suffered.
 
This video was shown and discussed in the last class I attended. The guy taking all the lead was indeed reportedly already in involuntary possession of at least one .40 slug before he even got inside, in range of the camera. The video was shown to us for the same reasons that "Lee Lapin" observes.
 
I think the one thing we can definiely learn from this is just because you are shot, this doesn't mean you need to stop fighting, roll over and die. The deceased fought to the bitter end and had he had a back up (gun or friend with gun) maybe he could have lived. Whatever the case, he didn't give up and that says a lot.
I think another thing we can learn is that under stress, malfunctions can occur and knowing instinctively how to clear a jam is paramount.
Another thing I can see is to stay away from the John Wayne mentality as we called it long ago and something that got cops killed; your gun is useless in your holster, when in doubt, it should be in your hand (which is why I chose a 640) out of sight in your jacket pocket or in your hand kept close to you in a tight grip. Holstered gun will kill you.
Here's another lesson; violence can happen anywhere, when least expected and doesn't always happen in a dark alley or parking structure.
 
That is pretty terrifying , I have no idea what to do in that situation other than bite kick punch claw anything to escape. Barring that I suppose it becomes a take as many of them with you type thing. Nobody wins with criminals like this running around. I hope those criminals were caught. Tho our justice system probably will put them in prison the place where they get 3 meals , a bed, and sometimes access to internet/education
 
That was violent but thanks for sharing.

First, props to the guy in the white had that is already in the mall. He had the situational awareness to identifying something was happening and then quickly get out of the way.

Second, it was interesting watching the 1st shooter with his gun malfunctioning. He became tunnel visioned with trying to fix the issue and took his eyes off the victim. If the victim had quicker access to his weapon, it would have been lights out for the 1st shooter.

Third, I'm surprised the 2nd shooter didn't accidently shoot his buddy. He was taking shots while they were wrestling around. Also, I'm assuming he had a small caliber weapon because it looks like he shot the victim in the back of the head and it didn't end the fight.

Anyways, violence is violent.
 
I too have seen the video before. I was told the "victim" was shot twice in the torso before entering the establishment. As one who has experienced fairly severe trauma on a couple of occasions, I can tell you your body and mind will take you into a zone that has to be experienced to be understood. Enough said.
 
catnphx said:
I'm surprised the 2nd shooter didn't accidently shoot his buddy. He was taking shots while they were wrestling around. Also, I'm assuming he had a small caliber weapon because it looks like he shot the victim in the back of the head and it didn't end the fight.
Click to expand...

A couple lessons can be taken from that:

1) Carry enough gun (if a contact shot to the back of the head didn't stop the fight, shooter #2 probably didn't have enough gun).

2) If you have to break up a ground fight between a "friendly" and a "hostile," a firearm may not necessarily be the best choice. Shooter #2 could have more effectively ended the fight with a knife, or even his bare hands/feet, while putting his friend (shooter #1) in significantly less danger.

R
 
If you are going to take anything from this video, absorb how pitiful a "stopper" a handgun actually is. The deceased took multiple hits (10 - 12?) before the thug with the white jacket finally ends it with head shots.

Don't assume that your 9mm/.40/.45 is going to end a fight just by drawing and shooting an assailant center mass.
 
Don't assume that your 9mm/.40/.45 is going to end a fight just by drawing and shooting an assailant center mass.
Click to expand...

At the end of the day, the only way to turn a human being "off" is to damage the central nervous system. Everything else is just playing with how much time it takes to run the muscles dry. It's like putting sand in an engine of an idling car vs. turning off the ignition. Both will turn off the car. One will do it over time by depriving the car of what it needs to run well, and through damaging the components to a degree where they won't run at all. The other actually turns the car off instantly.

The central nervous system is the only way to turn a person "off". Focusing as many shots as possible with the hope of penetrating and destroying it's ability to control the body is the always the best bet.
 
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