Re-Thinking My Stance on .380 JHPs

[NMGonzo]

Today I don't have my bersa with me.

Not because it is insuficient, just because I can rotate handguns!

 

[Phantom Captain]

My PPK/s with Golden Sabers and and an extra mag of GS's is with me EVERYDAY.

I've never had a misfeed with the GS's they run perfectly. I've found they are a bit more accurate as well. Totally impressed with them and totally confident in my choice of carry weapon and ammo.

 

[McCall911]

I was more impressed with Hornady's 90 grain XTP as evaluated here at Firearms Tactical:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/380acp/hor380-90xtp-b85.htm

This approaches FBI's 12-inch criterion.

 

[SwampWolf]

I prefer hardball in short barreled .380s because I want maximum reliability and penetration. I'm not convinced that the latest in hollow-point bullet design will reliably expand with the fps limit imposed by short barrels and hardball is the standard when it comes to dependable function in autos and penetration (don't want my bullet caught up in some bg's heavy outer-wear).

I've heard this argument from a LOT of people but honestly it doesnt' make sense to me.

Well, I like to think that I'm open minded and your argument does make sense to me but only to a point: if a bullet expands (and if is a big qualifying word when we presume meaningful expansion in the context of relatively slow-moving projectiles from short-barreled .380s), it, almost by definition, cedes some degree of penetration. Whether a reduction in inches of penetration means much in terms of stopping an assailant in his tracks is, I suppose, open to continued interpretation. But I maintain that it does make a difference if the assailant is clad in layers of winter clothing or he is, perchance, attempting to use some form of barrier as cover.

Thankfully, America is still a free country. For the utmost in functioning reliability and maximum penetration, I'll continue to feed my LCP hardball for self-defense usage. You, of course, can continue to rely on hollow-points for the same purpose and I wish you the best.

 

[Warhawk83]

I'm not confident, because I can't find any damn bullets.

 

[boomcrash]

.380 not for me...

I used to carry a .380 Sig P230, but not any more. Before I left Houston, there was an officer involved shooting. A man was shot point-blank in the face with a .380. While it took the fight out of him temporarily, it was not a definite stopper. In surgery, one slug was removed from his sinus cavity. I dont know if they were solids or hollow points, but thats all I need to know. Besides, the cost of premium .380 jhp's is the same as the cost of a bigger round, either .45 or 9mm, or .357SIG.

Either of those last three rounds can be launched from a gun only a bit larger than some .380's, like the S&W 3913, a Sig 239 or 245. Also there are the mighty.38 and .357 j-frame guns to consider.

-0-

 

[dal205]

I used to carry a .380 Sig P230, but not any more. Before I left Houston, there was an officer involved shooting. A man was shot point-blank in the face with a .380. While it took the fight out of him temporarily, it was not a definite stopper. In surgery, one slug was removed from his sinus cavity. I dont know if they were solids or hollow points, but thats all I need to know. Besides, the cost of premium .380 jhp's is the same as the cost of a bigger round, either .45 or 9mm, or .357SIG.

Either of those last three rounds can be launched from a gun only a bit larger than some .380's, like the S&W 3913, a Sig 239 or 245. Also there are the mighty.38 and .357 j-frame guns to consider.

Me, too, Boomcrash. My first EDC was an LCP. But, we recently had an incident were a guy was shot four times with an LCP. He walked up and down the street for 20 minutes trying to stop traffic to get help. Now, I admit I do not know where he was shot at, but still, that makes me wonder.

I have a PF9 that I carry 70% of the time, now. I've got a G36 on the way that I hope to replace the PF9 with. But, I will keep the LCP and carry it at times when the PF9 and G36 just won't do. I figure 13 rds of 380 Hydra-shoks are better than nothing.

 

[Pappy109]

Me, too, Boomcrash. My first EDC was an LCP. But, we recently had an incident were a guy was shot four times with an LCP. He walked up and down the street for 20 minutes trying to stop traffic to get help. Now, I admit I do not know where he was shot at, but still, that makes me wonder.

I have a PF9 that I carry 70% of the time, now. I've got a G36 on the way that I hope to replace the PF9 with. But, I will keep the LCP and carry it at times when the PF9 and G36 just won't do. I figure 13 rds of 380 Hydra-shoks are better than nothing.

Permit me to ask this question.....would you be willing to be hit with .380/9 mm Kurz ball ammunition from 25 yards away.

 

[hunter25]

I am currently carrying Hornady TAP in my LCP. This load is an exclusive for Cabela's and the only hp I could find at the time.
While hunting this year I had the opportunity to finish a pronghorn that got up as we got close. From about 15 feet I fired 1 shot through the lungs. The animal expired quickley and I was then able to skin it and see the results.
The bullet clipped 1 rib on the way in and left an impressive wound channel while passing all the way through and exiting the far side with an exit hole roughly double the size of the entrance.
I didn't expect to get full penetration so was surprised and very pleased with the results.

 

[Pappy109]

How did we every survive and win a couple of wars with out Hollow Point Ammo?..........

 

[HisSoldier]

One thing that instantly occurred to me while watching the Hornady Critical Defence video is that, assuming the soft cavity filler works as advertised, why wouldn't common silicone caulking work as well? With a syringe it would only take a few minutes to fill the cavities of a whole box of hollow points.

What they didn't show was a control shot with a bullet without the filler, granted fabric stopping expansion may be an intermitent problem, it should show up in a few shots, and a comparison made in as many shots.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Can anyone site an instance where 380 HPs failed to penetrate 4 layers of denim in a test? The fact is the denim usually plugs the HP and results in deeper penetration. I keep hearing it said that HPs could fail to penetrate heavy clothing or they has less penetration after heavy clothing but the tests I've seen don't seem to hold that up.

 

[katokahn99]

+1 ^ That's right jon, in the tests I've see, the clogged JHP acts like a FMJ round as far as penetration goes; but, does not "fail to penetrate" the layers.

 

[SwampWolf]

That's right jon, in the tests I've see, the clogged JHP acts like a FMJ round as far as penetration goes; but, does not "fail to penetrate" the layers.

What if it expands (as advertised)?

if a bullet expands (and if is a big qualifying word when we presume meaningful expansion in the context of relatively slow-moving projectiles from short-barreled .380s), it, almost by definition, cedes some degree of penetration.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Yet I constantly hear it as an excuse to use FMJ in almost all calibers. Same thing with bone. I would think a 90gr JHP going 900+ fps that is clogged with cloth, leather, or bone would penetrate better than a FMJ at 700-800 fps. In fact I would bet it would act like a FP-FMJ which generally exhibits even better penetration that plain FMJ. At least thats what the numbers I've seen seem to indicate.



Swampwolf, if it expands an you are using one of the controlled expansion HPs like the Hornady CD than likely it will still penetrate far enough to do the job and still create a more damaging wound channel than the FMJ. In my opinion.

 

[makarovnik]

I'm thinking a regular old round nose FMJ might penetrate better than a standard pressure hollowpoint clogged with denim. It is also cheaper and feeds more reliably especially in older guns.

Now +P is another matter. How about one +P hollowpoint in the pipe and another on the bottom of the mag with FMJ in between?

I do like the Buffalo Bore stuff.

 

[Big Bill]

I'm not confident, because I can't find any damn bullets.

True That! It'd be nice to walk into a gunstore and pick up a few boxes of the ammo you want and actually have a choice. These days you have to take what you can get and some prices are outrageous too. There's almost no .380 ammo anywhere for anyprice.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I don't use cheap old guns to defend myself unless its a Makarov, and they'll eat anything.

 

[zxcvbob]

I prefer hardball in short barreled .380s because I want maximum reliability and penetration. I'm not convinced that the latest in hollow-point bullet design will reliably expand with the fps limit imposed by short barrels and hardball is the standard when it comes to dependable function in autos and penetration (don't want my bullet caught up in some bg's heavy outer-wear).

You do realize that if the bullet fails to expand, it will penetrate *deeper*?

 

[Shawn Dodson]

jon in wv writes:

If HPs are not likely to expand from the short barrels then there is no advantage to the FMJs.

A .380 ACP that penetrates a bare arm will probably expand and under-penetrate. Keep in mind that the skin on the exit side of the arm is going to deplete a few inches of the bullet's penetration potential before it reaches the torso. Depending on the angle a bullet may have to penetrate 4-5 inches of arm, and expend a couple of inches of its penetration potential stretching the skin on the exit side of the arm until the skin tears so the bullet can exit, so we’re looking at a realistic possibility that 6-7 inches of the bullet’s penetration potential is depleted before it reaches and penetrates the torso.

Likewise, if you’re knocked to the ground and have to fire upward, your bullet may have to traverse several inches of non-vital tissues to reach vitals.

Further you may be involved in a physical scuffle while armed and who knows what path the bullet will have to negotiate to reach vitals?

A bullet that expands but its path goes through non-vital tissues will be as ineffective as a bullet that is on track to damage vitals but stops short. Both are non-vital hits.

The problem with .380 ACP expanding bullets is inconsistent bullet performance. If the bullet expands it suffers inadequate sectional density to achieve adequate penetration. If it fails to expand it wounds like an FMJ bullet.

FMJ bullet terminal performance is consistent, thus reliable, and that is the rational for using it for defense ammo in a .380 ACP handgun. You can count on it to reach and damage vitals in almost every situation.

 

[Ben86]

I am starting to feel like the .380 jhps have been getting a bad rap since the FBI decided that at least 12" of penetration was absolutely necessary. Maybe some 90 grain Gold Dots might be better than the 95 grain fmj target loads I've been carrying, even if I do have to sacrifice a couple inches of penetration.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Shawn, I understand what you are saying. My comments were geared more towards addressing the inconsistencies of the argument. I can see the logic of what you wrote also but to me that simply stresses the importance of multiple follow up shots especially when using a smaller caliber weapon. Its highly unlikely ALL your shots with go through his arm and behave as you describe. The fact is FMJs may not expand but the results of traversing the arm before entering the body will greatly reduce the penetration of the FMJs too. The fact is if your second guessing penetration to that degree then carrying a round with less than 200 lb/ft of energy probably isn't the answer. Shot placement is going to be even more important with a round like the 380. I like a 9mm for my primary carry for that reason. I want to be able to carry quality ammo with enough velocity and energy to ensure reasonable expansion AND penetration. (And be cheap enough to allow me to shoot a LOT of rounds down range in practice) My personal opinion is that the Federal Hydrashoks I carry in my LCP aren't likely to show much expansion if any especially if they are wearing any type of heavy clothing. They are likely to penetrate deep enough with a bullet that upsets enough that it will cause a more damaging wound channel than a FMJ. It will also be less likely to glance off of bone or auto glass/metal than a FMJ. I know of one case personally there an individual was shot in the face at close range with a 380 FMJ. The round entered his cheek and glanced off his cheek bone. The bullet traveled around his skull and stopped under the skin behind his skull. ( Good for him, he was the good guy. ) I think the result would have been different if the round had been a HP and it had dug into the cheek bone rather that glancing off. **

I often wonder though, why every one is so hell bent on penetration yet Keltec and Ruger can't make 380s fast enough to keep up. If penetration was king the 10mm wouldn't have become the more obscure round that it is. The last thing a 200gr 10mm at 1000+ fps is going to do is under penetrate. But thats a whole other thread.

** I realize that story is anecdotal and doesn't' prove squat. it was just an example for the sake of discussion.

 

[Ben86]

Interesting point about the hollow point's lesser tendency to glance of bone. That is a benefit offered whether or not it expands.

 

[Jed Carter]

Bare ballistic gel? Not shot thru denim are leather? or 3/4 plywood, at 15 to 20 yards? I used to carry a SIG P232 .380 but just don't trust the ballistics, accuracy past 5 yards, maybe 7, So I retired the SIG and went to a CZ PCR 14 +1 9mm shoots 10x at 20yds.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I think we can ALL agree that a compact or full sized 9mm or larger handgun is a better choice than a 380. I do think that its a little extreme to completely discount the 380s especially in the Bersa/P232 size range as a capable carry piece for people who have trouble with the larger caliber guns. The P3AT and LCP are also, in my opinion, more capable than they are given credit for as a BUG or a deep concealment weapon. They are perfectly capable of inflicting serious and mortal wounds or to protect yourself in the absence of the availability of a larger weapon.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=127

In a Bersa or Sig 380 this load would be pretty stout and should get more than enough penetration to make anyone happy. I just don't use it in my LCP because it seems a little stout for such a little gun. I would prefer it was loaded to about 900fps for my LCP. Since that isn' the case I think the Hydrashoks, the Gold Dots, or Hornady's Critical Defense are a pretty good compromise. More important than ANY of that is the one thing that is probably the small 380s biggest weakness is that most people probably just don't practice with them enough. I wasn't as big a fan of the LCP until I decided I would shoot 500 rounds down range before I passed judgement. After about 350 rounds I really changed my perspective of just how capable that little sucker is.