REAL black powder?

[moooose102]

I have noticed the absence of real black powder in the sporting goods stores that i have visited for the last year or so. i really havent needed to buy any as i sold my Knight 6 years ago right after my son was born (needed money). anyway, buying another black powder gun has been on my mind lately and i thought i would ask about it. has real black powder gone away due to 9-11? or are the substitutes so much better that nobody wants the old stuff anymore?

 

[AntiqueCollector]

Not many places are carrying it but it's still available. You can order it through the mail but with a $20 haz mat fee you'd want to buy more than one pound to make it worth it. grafs.com is where I usually get my powder...

 

[zxcvbob]

Black powder has been legislated into obscurity. It is classified by the Feds as an explosive, so there are much stricter regulations about its transportation and storage, etc. than smokeless powders. The black powder substitutes are classified the same as smokeless propellants. (OSHA recently tried to close the gap and reclassify smokeless powder and small arms ammunition as "explosives" to conform to some UN classification but they got shot down.)

 

[RyanM]

Yep. That "explosive" classification makes it pretty unpopular with the gun shop owners, as they get hit with a lot more shipping fees and crap. It's only commonly found in states like PA, where black powder firearms get their own hunting season.

 

[chemist308]

I'd imagine insurance rates for shops that carry real BP gotta suck too. I use it though--I think Pyrodex pellets are crap comparatively speaking, and based on my experience with those I refuse to try substitute powders... Every time I've snapped a cap or sparked a flint BP it has gone bang, or booOOOM to put it more accurately.

Based on my last comment I gotta wonder how much more dangerous real BP is than smokeless. Smokeless burns a LOT faster and thus seems to generate a lot more pressure. If 9-11 were the issue I'd tend to think they didn't understand the differences.

 

[ky_man]

http://powderinc.com

sells 5 lb lots

Good place to deal with.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Around here, it varies city by city as to whether they have it and no one has it out on the shelves. You need to ask for it if you want it.

 

[Misfire99]

I was talking with a guy at Graf & Sons. He told me it's not the Feds that are causing the problem but the shipping companies. Because it is classed as an explosive the shipping companies say they have the right to charge more to ship it. We all know that this is BS but what are you going to do. The the insurance companies get into the act and think they can get more money also so the rates for people that store BP goes up. So it really isn't the Feds it's the private sector taking the free market advantage of charging more.

I'm thinking of making my own. It's not more expensive to make then it is to buy. But the density is less so homemade fouls more and takes a larger load.

 

[Titanvk56]

I think the storage of BP is where the FEDS come into play.


http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title27/27-2.0.1.3.5.11.html

 

[BigBlock]

I buy it from Grafs too. At about $12/lb, + $3.95 shipping + $20 hazmat, it's "only" 20 bucks a pound if you buy three pounds.

When you consider the cost of gas you saved by not driving around trying to find the real stuff, it's not a bad deal.

 

[Ed Ames]

Considering that the last time I bought black powder in a store it was about $25 "out the door" for a pound, that $20/lb price delivered is pretty good. Of course, that was one of those "we're the only store within 200 miles that carries it" sort of deals.

 

[BobMcG]

You've been told the why of it (legislation) but like others I too buy it from Graf's . I get together with a couple of friends, get a dozen pounds and split it up. Very affordable that way. About $14.00 a pound.

 

[arcticap]

I thought it was because a license to sell BP cost about $300 a year, so it requires some sales volume to justify the cost of the license.

 

[Never No More]

I buy my real BP at rondys, aobut $12-15 bucks a can, no paperwork.

 

[mykeal]

I'm constantly amazed at people interpreting facts differently.

There is no 'legislation' as such sending black power into obscurity. There is regulation of certain chemical compounds (black powder being one) by the BATFE, which is a federal bureaucracy. Yes, I'm splitting hairs with the language, but I thought the facts should be stated correctly at least once.

The classification of black powder by the BATFE is based on it's chemical composition, which is greatly different than smokeless powder as we all know. BATFE says the chemical composition of black powder is easier to detonate than that of smokeless powder, thus the difference in classification (how fast it burns has nothing to do with the difference). There is evidence for that finding, despite the fact that many of us think otherwise.

So, regardless of the opinion of the expert at Graf's, the federal government is certainly involved in the availability of black powder at retail. It's their finding and regulation that results in the classification used by the retailers, shippers and insurance companies to determine how they must treat the substance and thus how much cost is involved.

The state governments are also involved in creating cost burdening regulations. There are storage regulations for explosives that are used in construction, and because of it's explosive classification the storage of black powder is affected.

Most local retailers, and all of the big box sporting goods retailers, have decided to just not address the issues created by the explosive classification of black powder, and thus it's not readily available over the counter. A few continue to sell it but pass the costs along in their pricing, as you would expect. As to whether or not they, and the insurance companies, are 'taking advantage' of the opportunity, well, that's a matter of opinion that I won't address.

The mail order companies, (Graf, Powder Inc., etc) do offer a viable alternative if one does not want to go to substitute black powders. Small lots (25 lbs or less) will keep you from running afoul of the regulations almost everywhere, although it's wise to check with state authorities before committing funds.

Are the substitutes that much better than real black? While there are as many opinions about the substitutes as there are people, I doubt anyone would claim they are 'much' better. They have their good points and their bad points. I personally like and use 777, but there are plenty of people who will, with good evidence and reason, disagree with me. I prefer to use real black powder, but 777 is 'good enough' to use when I want to preserve what stock of real black I have left. That's my position.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Most local retailers, and all of the big box sporting goods retailers, have decided to just not address the issues created by the explosive classification of black powder, and thus it's not readily available over the counter.

Not to be contrary and perhaps this is an anomaly, but Cabela's in Lehi, Utah, which one would certainly consider a big box sporting good store, carries black powder.

 

[mykeal]

Not to be contrary and perhaps this is an anomaly, but Cabela's in Lehi, Utah, which one would certainly consider a big box sporting good store, carries black powder.

It's a serious anomaly. I've been in Cabela's, Bass Pro, Sportsman's Warehouse and Gander Mountain stores in 6 states across the midwest since Oct 16th and not one carried any version of real black powder. They do not offer it in their cataloges or on line sites, either.

 

[dwave]

I buy my Goex BP at the Cabelas in Wheeling West Virginia. They carry it.

 

[pepperbelly]

Here in Ft.Worth Cabela's and every other gun shop has stopped carrying bp. Bass Pro nearby sells only the substitutes. A couple of shops said the city has made it too hard for them to continue selling it even thouigh it was OK a couple of years ago.
The powderinc.com site has about the best prices considering their prices include shipping and haz-mat fee.
I did notice that Goex has a new bp substitute- Goex Pinnacle. I have heard that it is much closer to bp than the others and might be worth a try if you can't find some locally or order some.

Jim

 

[dwave]

It's not really new, but newer. Anyways here is a thread on it you can look at:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=175862&highlight=

 

[JCT]

BP is simply not an explosive. It's not even close to substances that are explosives. Unfortunately it was classified that way back when it's primary use was blasting.
In a way it's a "heaving explosive", when confined, it's high gas output works well to more material and break up rock, but Black Powder is a deflagrant, which means it burns, not explodes, much like smokeless.
BP will not detonate, only explosives will detonate. Detonation is characterized by supersonic combustion in which a shock wave is propagated forward due to energy release in a reaction zone behind it.
Black powder is safer than even the BATF seems to know...It's not notably pressure, friction or impact sensitve. It's ignition point is higher than that of paper. FG sporting powders have a graphite coating and aren't particularly static sensitive. I actually feel safer working with BP than smokeless.
I drove an hour and a half today to the only place in my state that sells BP, to find out they no longer sell any!!! I refuse to use substitutes, they're perchlorate and sugar based and nasty on the guns and to breath. I gave them all a try, but they're more corrosive than BP and I'd rather not breath the biproducts of them.
I do make my own BP in a ball mill, with willow charcoal, it's much hotter and cleaner than GOEX, but lately I'm loading .45 colt and unless I can press my BP to a density of 1.7g, I don't have enough space in the case for a decent load.
Now with no supplier within 2 hours, I'll have to look into pressing some meal powder soon...

 

[mykeal]

Excellent post, JCT, and welcome to the forum.

I hope you have success convincing the BATFE of your view regarding classification of black powder as an explosive.

By the way, I was interested in your definition of 'detonation', involving supersonic combustion and propagation of a shock wave. I did a little Google work but wasn't able to find one with those characteristics. Most involved things like 'a violent release of energy caused by a chemical or nuclear reaction' (WordWeb) or 'the act of exploding' (The American Heritage Dictionary).

Also, I believe the BATFE classification, however misguided, is based solely on chemical composition and not speed or type of reaction. Could be wrong about that as it involves my memory, but I'm pretty sure that's what they told me.

Finally, I'm in the same boat you are with regard to local availability of real black powder. I've found, however that Powder, Inc.'s prices and policies were competitive with the local market when it existed, and they still seem to provide a good value with respect to the far away retail OTC suppliers when I can get to them. Mail order, for me, is a viable alternative especially since I prefer not to invest in or take the risk of personal manufacture.

I note that some forum members have found big box stores in their local areas that still carry real black. I'm pleased to know that my generalization about all the big box stores was incorrect. Maybe those who still carry it will have some influence on those who've stopped.

 

[oneshooter]

Bass Pro in Katy, Texas has 1f-4f in stock. At a price of $20 per lb + tax!!

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

 

[Puerto Morelos]

Look no further than your local fire code.

That seasoned guy who no longer toots the horn or goes out to rescue cats, that used-to-be you pay an elevated salary for making contractors' lives lousy and riding in parades, that respected community member, has the ear of your local politicos and more influence over whether or not you can buy BP than do federal regulators. And he is owned and won't admit it or doesn't believe it.

It is certain that hand-wringers of every federal sort have their place in the regulatory labyrinth, but their influence, for the most part, just raises prices. Your local innocent bungler is the proximate cause of the absence of BP from the shelf of your local shop.

He tells your city and county and state politicos what was in the flyer printed by an insurance company - more likely one of their "public interest groups" - and dropped in his gimme bag at the hospitality suite during the last seminar you paid his way to. He doesn't tell them about his golf game or fishing trip sponsored by those same insurance companies. He might tell you about it over a couple of beers, but at his age and vulnerability, he's been coached to be discreet in his mumblings about such things.

And your elected politicos' staff don't have a problem transcribing those good ideas into recommended pieces of legislation and regulation "to make your life better" and protect you from yourselves. (staffers are paid crumbs, were never pseudo-heroes, and are bought for crumbs - literally) Since you're so glad your elected politicos are taking good care of you, you re-elect them until they're drooling ancients and then you make them heroes unless they show their underclothes in a public way.

And that's how it becomes illegal or untenable for your local shop to carry your favorite BP stuff - you voted it away. And you pay a has-been hat to make certain it stays gone. And don't you wonder why? Stay tuned -

Those same insurance companies use that heightened level of regulation as circumstantial evidence of increased risk - their incidental history is the relatively rare firecracker stand event since the last BP flash above the horizon was Bruce Hodgdon's regrettable display - to raise premiums. And those rate hikes get everybody: manufacturers, carriers, and re-sellers, and if you look closely, you. Your states’ insurance commissions establish those rates. You pay them and congratulate yourself for helping the good and moral public servant make the world a better place.

I know – I’ve written scripts for every act of the foregoing little melodrama. And it’s only about money. And, now that you’ve read and (I hope) thought about this, you can respond with something other than righteous indignation or sullen resignation.

Respectfully,

PM

 

[JCT]

Here's a great page about BP.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_pyrodex.htm
Since BP is classified as an explosive, so it's regulated as one. Real explosives don't surface burn. BP in a pile, even up to 100's of pounds will just burn end to end. Explosives self confine and detonate, primary explosives are far more senisitve and used to initiate secondary explosives, like TNT, ANFO, C-4.....
Anyway...I'll most likely order from Grafs since I'd need to spend a few hundred on a press to make beter BP anyway. When I shoot my BP revolvers, a full cylinder in my Dragoon of homemade BP is roughly the same as 30 grains of commercial Goex. The difference is the 1.7g/c3 density of commercial powder.
It just makes me mad that somehow people think smokeless is safer than BP. There's no reason every shop shouldn't have BP. I know someone who had pyrodex ignite from static and he was burned bad. It's no safer, maybe less safe, as I said, sporting BP has that graphite coat for safety.