Real cowboys never used Colt 45's !!

[Beartracker]

Why is it so many people believe that the Colt 45 won the west??? By the time the 45 came alone the west was already won by REAL men with REAL revolvers like the Remington .44, Colt 51 and 61 and the old army.
The only guy's who carried the Colt 45 were wimps and REAL cowboy want- a- be's, HA!!!

 

[torpid]

Billy Dee Williams is no wannabe!

"It works every time."

 

[model 649]

I wasn't aware many "cowboys" carried guns. My reading suggests that many viewed holstered guns more of an encumberance and preferred a saddle gun, more like a carbine. Many of the posed pictures the men had taken of them while "in town" were provided "prop" guns to make the picture more appealing to those back home. What was the question again?
Josh

 

[McCall911]

Beartracker, you may have a point there.

I found this epitaph and background from the website underneath:


Lester Moore was a Wells, Fargo Co. station agent for Naco, Arizona in
the cowboy days of the 1880's. He's buried in the Boot Hill Cemetery in
Tombstone, Arizona:

Here lies Lester Moore
Four slugs from a .44
No Les No More.

http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/quotes/epitaphs.html

 

[capbuster]

military handgun used by the pony soldiers out west and elsewhere.civilians caught on and took them to heart. General George Patton carried one.The word "men" not whimps comes to my mind.

 

[Starter52]

Cowboys were at the bottom of the pay scale in the West. The Colt .45 was about the most expensive handgun sold. I can't believe many were sold to cowboys.

Bankers bought 'em, probably.

 

[Beartracker]

Interesting stuff you guy's are coming up with but I disagree with Josh. Way to many cowboys were killed with revolvers to ever think that most of them carried rifles. I have documented photos of many of them dead and a live and none that i remember were killed my rifle fire. Many of these revolvers are in museums. Way to many to list here.


McCall911, Funny stuff! I marked the sight, thanks, Mike


I never knew that George Patton's 45's were black powder ??? I also never knew that he had anything to do with winning the west! Just kidding, he was a great man for sure.


Torpid, Lol, got me! Mike

 

[Spiggy]

no pearl handles, they're Ivory!

I figure the west couldn'tve been won without another important aspect.
-The Holster!

Where else would they keep their guns? in their pants?

 

[mec]

There was another epitath that I believe R.l Wilson quoted in his colt book. It went something like.

" Here lies_________
Who was accidentally killed with a Colt's revolver
It was the old kind without the pins
on the chambers.
Of such is the Kingdom of Heaven."

 

[Father Knows Best]

Why is it so many people believe that the Colt 45 won the west??? By the time the 45 came alone the west was already won by REAL men with REAL revolvers like the Remington .44, Colt 51 and 61 and the old army.
The only guy's who carried the Colt 45 were wimps and REAL cowboy want- a- be's, HA!!!

Well, the west was basically "won" during the Indian Wars era, which ran from the late 1860s through the mid-1880s or so. The .45 Colt revolver appeared in 1873, which is right in the middle of that period. The "old west" period didn't really end until just before the turn of the century, by which time the Indian Wars were essentially over and the railroads had opened up the west to all manner of settlers and development.

I agree that the Colt Peacemaker basically earned its iconic status thanks to Hollywood, but it's unrealistic to say that the west was already "won" when it came along. After all, the Winchester model 1873 is widely regarded as "the gun that won the west", and it appeared in the same year as Colt's famous revolver. At the very least, the big Colt was involved in many of the battles and skirmishes between the Army and the Indians that made the west safe for cowboys.

 

[mec]

There was quite a lot of case law victimizing people violating the handgun ban. In some parts or times, it seems to have been ignored. Dr. William Crosthwaite settled in Holland and then Waco in the late 1890s. He quipped that it was illegal to carry a pair of pliers in your back pocket (true) but you could carry a pistol just about anywhere ( not true but apparently, a lot of people thought so.) Sam Houston's son Temple Houston was quite a gun man.Something I read about him indicated that he took frequent trips into the western part of the state- away from the settled area and did demonstrations with his colts - in the 1880s, I think. By then, most if not all the state was divided off into counties. Pistol carry was illegal in all but " "frontier counties subject to raids by hostile Indians". By then, the only indian raids were from the Oklahoma Indian territory and were more characterized as outlawry than warfare. The texas law that stood until the 1970s, eliminated the frontier county language and substituted " anywhere in the state of texas." Various exceptions applied from time to time dropping in and out of the criminal code so that nobody knew what was legal. Traveling was one, carrying large sums of money was another and arm and inquire was another. It seems that a person receiving a threat sufficient to alarm a person of ordinary courage could arm himself and go looking for the threatener - to ask him what he intended and possibley shoot him down upon finding out. I read that they had stopped advising juries of the right to arm and inquire in the late 1970s (nineteen, not eighteen) but I believe they stopped it long before that.
Very likely, one of the things that finally lead to the Concealed Handgun License act was Democracy. throughout most of history, a cowboy or ordinary citizen or certainly a minority group member would be arrested for carrying a handgun but a banker, or professional would be left alone. With the move toward more universal enforcement of laws, the favored classes lost their immunity.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Many of the original Remington and Colt cap and ball were carried long after the advent of the cartridge gun and even was preferred by some of the best gun fighters of the west. Mike

Very true. I bet that the Colt and Remington front-stuffers were far more common in civilian hands on the frontier than cartridge guns for quite some time.

 

[Beartracker]

Father Knows Best, Your right about that. I was basing my thoughts on some articles I have read over the years such as this paragraph taken from Mec's book :

"In 1862, Wison Bates and his younger brother, Thomas James "Bud" Bates joined the 18th Texas Calv. of the Confederate Army - Wilson a farrier (horse shoer) and Bud was 1st. bugler. Returning from the civil war, Bates found a Texas much changed. Union troops enforced Martial law in the state and the Johnson administration radical reconstruction bureaucracy held the political power. By 1773, the last of the plains tribes (lead by Quanah Parker) had surrendered and relocated to a reservation in Oklahoma Indian territory. A couple of years earlier, the carpet bag legislature had outlawed the carrying of Pistols, Dirks, Swords and other personal weapons within the settled counties."

This is one of the articles that means to me that the west was well on it's way to civilized but I have to admit had a long way to go and I wonder if we are there yet
By 1873 many modern machines were in the works as well as town's that were booming. I'm sure that brought a few "cowboy red necks" around and that gave the sheriff a chance to try out his new Colt.
Many of the original Remington and Colt cap and ball were carried long after the advent of the cartridge gun and even was preferred by some of the best gun fighters of the west. Mike

 

[Beartracker]

Mec, Now that's more interesting facts of the old west and just goes to show how well along they were in the pursuit of civilization by that time in history.

 

[Old Dragoon]

Well NOT all of Texas was placated by 1873. In June, I believe the 26 or 27 , 1874 Billy Dixon knocked (the death was never confirmed, but he was seen knocked off the horse and drug off by the others) an Indian off a horse with a new 40-70 Sharps( that belonged to another hunter),rifle at almost a mile away at Adobe Walls. I hardly think the Indians were friendly or placated on that day as they had kept several Buffalo hunters pinned down in Adobe Walls for a few days until the famous shot put an end to the siege. i had read that before and Now I have the book The Life of Billy Dixon and it's in there as well and the true stiory of how it all came down and the fact that it wasn't his rifle.

And further north on another June Day in 1876 our friend Mr. Custer met his end almost 2 years to the day of Adobe Walls. "And the General doesn't ride well anymore". (thanks johnny Cash). I wonder if all the Soldiers at the LBH had Cartridge weapons or if there were some C & B pitols there on the Army side.

 

[JohnKSa]

mec,

You are correct about the letter of the gun control laws of the Old West, but the original point of these laws has mostly been forgotten. One major clue is WHEN and WHERE these laws were passed.

While the LAWS stated that pistol carry was illegal, most of the weapons laws were selectively enforced against blacks. If you look at the passage of most of these laws they date to just after the freeing of the slaves and were passed primarily in areas where slave-holding was common (southern states).

They weren't about civilization at all. As with most gun control laws, they were primarily about oppression.

 

[Hypnogator]

Old Dragoon has the gist of it.

Billy Dixon's famous shot was actually made with the .50-140 Sharps, which had just been introduced. Personally, I'd hate to be on either end of that thing when it went off!

Custer's troops were armed with 1873 Springfield carbines in .45-70, and carried Colt 1873 revolvers in, you guessed it, .45 Colt!

While doing research for a "Last Word Society" presentation at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, I obtained a copy of the Army's investigation of the Springfield carbine and Colt revolver after the Little Bighorn Battle. It found fault with neither weapon. (I found fault with some of the assumptions and conclusions in the report, however.)

 

[mec]

I just watched a thing about an analysis of the little bighorn fight that started years ago after a grass fire made the ground more visible. The Soldiers were equipped with remington rolling blocks and some spencers as well as the colt single action. the indians were very well equipped with winchester leaver guns and other repeaters. they dug up bullets and mapped locations of cartridge cases to determine the shape, duration and major events of the battle. They were even able to trace the movements of individual soldiers by the firing pin signatures on the cases. they showed a lot of recovered bullets from various arms and I saw one round ball with flattened edges from a revolver and rifling marks.

I believe the last Indian fight in Texas involved Apaches and took place near El Paso in the 1880s. At the time of the Adobe Walls affair, the buffalo hunts were still on and the area was not at all tamed. Quana Parkers band of Comanches are credited as being the last to allow themselves to be moved to the reservations and this took place in the 1870s. Of course, Geronimo and others remained active in Mexico, New Mexico and Arizona well into the 80s and some gunwriter claimed that Apaches were raiding the southwest well into the 1930s.

 

[RyanM]

Very likely, one of the things that finally lead to the Concealed Handgun License act was Democracy. throughout most of history, a cowboy or ordinary citizen or certainly a minority group member would be arrested for carrying a handgun but a banker, or professional would be left alone. With the move toward more universal enforcement of laws, the favored classes lost their immunity.

Along the same lines of what JohnKSa just said, I'm pretty sure the opposite was true. After the supreme court started striking down laws which specifically restricted the rights of black people, the politicians in the South started getting clever. A bunch passed concealed carry license laws, which spread like a plague, and a few followed Tennessee's lead, by limiting what guns you can own.

By making concealed carry laws with ridiculous restrictions, they just made a more legal way of selectively disarming blacks. A black person wouldn't be able to afford to pay for a CCW or meet the requirements (just like black people couldn't afford poll taxes nor pass literacy tests, in order to vote). But rich white people, cops would just assume had a license. And if they were caught anyway, someone would no doubt make a license for them, and date it sometime before the crime was committed. Of course, no Southern DA in their right mind would actually prosecute a white man for carrying a gun around without a license.

This still shows up if you compare gun control laws in the South vs. the North. In TX, a CCW costs $140 plus training costs, needs a very long training course, fingerprinting, I think a drug test, and can take several months to process. But in PA, a CCW is $19, with no training, no fingerprints, no drug test, and takes only about 1-2 weeks usually. One of the Carolinas says you can't carry a concealed firearm on any private property, without the explicit consent of the owner. So if you walk on someone's lawn while carrying a firearm with a CCW, you've committed a crime. But in PA, you can carry a firearm wherever you darn well please, except for state and federal property.

Tennessee's "Army and Navy" law is the origin of the "junk gun" and "saturday night special" laws. That law said that the only handguns which were legal to buy were Colt Army and Navy revolvers, which are very large, heavy, and expensive compared to deringers. Much too expensive for the average freeman to afford. Of course, the law was selectively enforced on black people only. All non-Army/Navy guns that white people owned would be assumed to be grandfathered because they were owned before the law was passed, even if you were caught walking out of the gun store with one.

 

[Yankee John]

From what I have read, It was very common for merchantile/dry goods stores to carry black powder and percussion caps until well after the turn of the 20th century. Possibly and indication about how popular BP guns still were at that time?

Just my 2 cents,
John

 

[Old Dragoon]

I'm 61 and I remember when i was 8 or 9 I knew an old gun collector and he gave me a sword, but couldn't give me an old Colt(a beat to fire Lightning type) because I was too young, so he gave it to my father instead and dad gave it to me. It didn't fire or have all the parts but it was the best "Cowboy Gun " on the block. Also our local hardware store still carried BP and caps. in the 50's. No I never played with the sword and Ii don't remember what became of it, probably traded off for something tho.

 

[mec]

"North. In TX, a CCW costs $140 plus training costs, needs a very long training course, fingerprinting, I think a drug test, and can take several months to process. But in PA....."

I would not dispute your expertise on this matter but The texas 1872 anti-handgun law was passed by the reconstruction government at a time when African -americans were temporarily enjoying quite a few rights later jim-crowed out of existance. they were aimed at Texans. A number of souther states did have Concealed handgun licenses usually issued at the discretion of local law enforcement and probably set up just as you describe. They were not expensive but neither were they "shall issue until fairly recently.

Other states, like Texas, Oklahoma, Lousiana, New Mexico(open carry), et al had absolutely NO provisions for defensive handgun carry untill very recently.

Now. In regard to The Texas Concealed Handgun Act. I am not claiming greater knowledge than yours in regard to the Texas law nor, in any way disputing your expertise on the matter,but it is a near certainty that were I called to testify in court on matters relevant to it, the court would qualify me as an expert witness. I have taught the Concealed Handgun Course since its inception in September of 1995. The baseline fee for a 4 year license is $140. For persons over 60 the fee is $70s, for persons who can demonstrate low income the fee is $70. Renewals are good for 5 years and the maximum fee is $70- $35 for senior citizens and persons who meet the formula for low income. The classes are a minimum of ten hours in length-actual class time and can be accomplished in one long day. The standard, uncomplicated standard for issuance or denial is 60 days with the issuing body able to extend the time for special circumstances. There is no requirement for drug testing. The applicant is presumed eligible for the license unless the state can prove that he is categorically ineligible because of clearly defined reasons. As of December 2006, there are 14,510 persons who identify themselves as African American with concealed handgun licenses in Texas. The percentages of African American license holders has increased since the law went into effect. The percentage of "White" license holders has just dropped from the low 90s to 89%. In Texas, " White" and "Hispanic" are not differentiated for the purpose of state licenses.

The goal is that any ordinarily reasonable and prudent person without civil or criminal disabilities will have the option of getting a concealed handgun license.

Incidentally, following the passage of the Florida and Texas laws, a number of southern states have reformed their long-standing CCW statutes to "shall issue."

 

[gmatov]

The anti-black laws, and other prohibitive laws, date from well before the Reconstruction. They date almost from the opening of the country, the 16 and 1700's.

Later laws were aimed at the freed slaves, then the influx of Irish, Chinese, for the building of the railroads, the Slavs, who came to work the mines, anarchists, all, as per the lawmakers, and after that, the same, those who could not afford a 100 dollar pistol in a 25 dollar a month wage era.

The GCA '68, I think, outlawed firearms that would not survive a drop test, nor a heat test. If it melted at less than an arbitrary temperature, it was a "Saturday Night Special". I think that has been rescinded since some of the highest priced pistols have a plastic frame. (I don't care what "alloy" of plastic you call it, it is still the cheapest form of manufacture there is. Injection mold an oil based plastic, add a few ounces of precision steel parts, and it is an 800 dollar Glock. I like my Kel-Tec .380, 10 ounces, fully loaded, but still plastic, for the most part.)

It's still too expensive for those who need a self protection firearm, those who make minimum wage, live in the least favourable areas of any city, and have the most to fear.

Ah, well.

Cheers,

George

 

[Byron Quick]

It's still too expensive for those who need a self protection firearm, those who make minimum wage, live in the least favourable areas of any city, and have the most to fear.

Jaysus, I bought a brand new Mauser HsC when I was making minimum wage in 1972. $2.00/hour. You mean to say I was living beyond my means? There are these activities called thrift and saving which can bring many things into the range of affordability for a minimum wage earner. Granted, minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation in the meantime but it's been a while since I've seen an entry level position that was paying minimum wage. That Mauser cost $110.00 plus 3% sales tax. What are they now? $550.00 plus 7% sales tax?

 

[Old Fuff]

Beartracker:

Them old cap-blasters have addled your head. Been breathing too much black powder I presume.

For your information, Arizona and New Mexico were frontier territories until 1910 and 1912 respectively… We still ain’t civilized yet…

Besides, your New Model you-know-what is not a .44 (that was 44 balls to the pound) but rather a .45 – it do shoot .454” balls don’t it???