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Real cowboys never used Colt 45's !!

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I was in that museum a long, long time ago. But the late stuff isn't new. Up at the Jesse James Museum they had a reputed Frank James Rifle that he used in all the robberies and such, but it wasn't produced(S/N) until sometime while he was incarcerated or after he died, I cannot remember which. That caused a lot of trouble when the story surfaced, accusations of switching out the real one with the newer one and all. Don't know how they settled that one.
I find that the local historical Museums are a little lax when putting together exhibits, but that isn't meant to demean them at al, just that someone in charge isn't up on the dates and history as they should be. It happens.
If you ever Get to Cody Wy. Gpo to the Buffalo Bill Historical center. it'll take you days to see all the guns and days to see the other stuff in there.
 
I was in that museum a long, long time ago. But the late stuff isn't new. Up at the Jesse James Museum they had a reputed Frank James Rifle that he used in all the robberies and such, but it wasn't produced(S/N) until sometime while he was incarcerated or after he died, I cannot remember which. That caused a lot of trouble when the story surfaced, accusations of switching out the real one with the newer one and all. Don't know how they settled that one.
I find that the local historical Museums are a little lax when putting together exhibits, but that isn't meant to demean them at al, just that someone in charge isn't up on the dates and history as they should be. It happens.
If you ever Get to Cody Wy. Go to the Buffalo Bill Historical center. it'll take you days to see all the guns and days to see the other stuff in there.
 
Man, the thread has gone for 3 more pages. That's what I get for waiting 4 days before logging in again. Oh, well.

"North. In TX, a CCW costs $140 plus training costs, needs a very long training course, fingerprinting, I think a drug test, and can take several months to process. But in PA....."

I would not dispute your expertise on this matter but The texas 1872 anti-handgun law was passed by the reconstruction government at a time when African -americans were temporarily enjoying quite a few rights later jim-crowed out of existance. they were aimed at Texans. A number of souther states did have Concealed handgun licenses usually issued at the discretion of local law enforcement and probably set up just as you describe. They were not expensive but neither were they "shall issue until fairly recently.

Other states, like Texas, Oklahoma, Lousiana, New Mexico(open carry), et al had absolutely NO provisions for defensive handgun carry untill very recently.

I dunno. Unless you have some kind of evidence of the politicians' motives, like memoirs or letters or something, it's pretty hard to speculate why the anti-handgun law was passed. It may have been to stem cowboy violence, or it may have been because handguns, being easily concealed, gave black people potential defense against lynch mobs and whatnot. An angry mob could get by fine with long guns, pitchforks, scythes, and the like, but for a normal guy, toting around a shotgun all day is much more inconvenient than a pistol.

Now. In regard to The Texas Concealed Handgun Act. I am not claiming greater knowledge than yours in regard to the Texas law nor, in any way disputing your expertise on the matter,but it is a near certainty that were I called to testify in court on matters relevant to it, the court would qualify me as an expert witness. I have taught the Concealed Handgun Course since its inception in September of 1995. The baseline fee for a 4 year license is $140. For persons over 60 the fee is $70s, for persons who can demonstrate low income the fee is $70. Renewals are good for 5 years and the maximum fee is $70- $35 for senior citizens and persons who meet the formula for low income. The classes are a minimum of ten hours in length-actual class time and can be accomplished in one long day. The standard, uncomplicated standard for issuance or denial is 60 days with the issuing body able to extend the time for special circumstances. There is no requirement for drug testing. The applicant is presumed eligible for the license unless the state can prove that he is categorically ineligible because of clearly defined reasons. As of December 2006, there are 14,510 persons who identify themselves as African American with concealed handgun licenses in Texas. The percentages of African American license holders has increased since the law went into effect. The percentage of "White" license holders has just dropped from the low 90s to 89%. In Texas, " White" and "Hispanic" are not differentiated for the purpose of state licenses.

The goal is that any ordinarily reasonable and prudent person without civil or criminal disabilities will have the option of getting a concealed handgun license.

I do still think the requirements are unreasonable, compared to certain states in the northeast. Or maybe we're the unreasonable ones, letting anyone carry a gun around without showing proficiency. I have seen some scarily bad gun handling at the range, but that seems to be universal.

But anyway, would it be easier for a very poor person to come up with $70 and 10 hours, or $19 and 10 minutes? Both are doable, but one is definitely easier.

Also, I'd say the increase in African American license holders since the shall-issue law passing is a definite indicator that licenses were being denied on the basis of race, before the law went into effect. It would be interesting to see how common CCWs are at different income levels, in TX compared to PA or NH or something.

Incidentally, following the passage of the Florida and Texas laws, a number of southern states have reformed their long-standing CCW statutes to "shall issue."

Which is good, but I think shall-issue is probably more of a step sideways than a step in the right direction. What they really need to do is get rid of most of the restrictions. Especially that "no licensed carry on private property without the owner's permission" law in whichever Carolina (or was it Georgia?). That one really makes me mad.

But you know politicians. They never remove crappy laws, only add more.
 
Read something someone wrote, can't remember about trading a RIGHT to be armed for a privledge.

I don't see NOTHIN in Bill-O-Rights about Unless ya gotta permit. Thats like gettin a permit to speak! FREE speech?

Wow! TOO early for that blood pressure raising issue!
 
I think shall-issue is probably more of a step sideways than a step in the right direction. What they really need to do is get rid of most of the restrictions. Especially that "no licensed carry on private property without the owner's permission" law in whichever Carolina (or was it Georgia?). That one really makes me mad
But you know politicians. They never remove crappy laws, only add more..


I have to agree with you about those statements. I think the crime rate would plummet quickly if most of the restrictions on concealed carry of a handgun were removed. You're definately right about politicians adding more and more crappy laws, they just make things more complicated than they need to be. I think the founding fathers stated it best, and it shouldn't have been modified from it's original form by adding to or taking away from the original statement.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
 
Thing is, ya gotta know, first duty of any living creature, SURVIVE! Ya DON'T need a permit slip to fulfill a universal right!

And ya don't even need it spelled out, it's already there!

Next Kodiak bear you meet, have a sit down and explain how he should really not have those claws&teeth.

We folk are thin skinned&weak, NEED our tools!

And my blood presure is up! HOT button!
 
That's for sure MI,
But as my friend Cowboy says. "You don't argue Constitutional Law with a Georgia State Trooper on a dirt road at 3 A.M in the morning."

It all takes common sense and cool thinking in the midst of confusion.
That is why they teach you in CCW classes(or at least miy instructor did) that if you are envolved in an altercation and have fired your weapon to NOT make a statement for 24 hours. Inform the Officer that you will make a statement in 24 hours and not before. And not without an attorney present. Adrenaline does get in the way before that timeframe expires and you might say something really stupid.

Lord knows I never want to experience that or have to use armed response, but I pray I'll remember everything I've been taught if it happens.
One thing for sure, after the CCW classes you sure become aware of your surroundings.
 
Old Dragoon said:
That's for sure MI,
But as my friend Cowboy says. "You don't argue Constitutional Law with a Georgia State Trooper on a dirt road at 3 A.M in the morning."

It all takes common sense and cool thinking in the midst of confusion.
That is why they teach you in CCW classes(or at least miy instructor did) that if you are envolved in an altercation and have fired your weapon to NOT make a statement for 24 hours. Inform the Officer that you will make a statement in 24 hours and not before. And not without an attorney present. Adrenaline does get in the way before that timeframe expires and you might say something really stupid.

Lord knows I never want to experience that or have to use armed response, but I pray I'll remember everything I've been taught if it happens.
One thing for sure, after the CCW classes you sure become aware of your surroundings.


Yep! Good advice. Got this 'thing' about RIGHTS, i quit flyin cause i WONT be treated like a criminal, and i will NEVER surrender even a speck of what is mine AND your's.

Surprising how quick i flash hot&heavy at mere suggestion of RIGHTS being limited.

Mebbe cut back on the coffee? :)
 
I don't see NOTHIN in Bill-O-Rights about Unless ya gotta permit. Thats like gettin a permit to speak! FREE speech?

I'm going to have to remember that one. Good analogy.

I really think I'm going to move to VT once I graduate college, as long as I can find a job and an acre or two of property there.
 
MI,
I'll still fly because I know those rights I give up now were the rights that allowed 911 to happen. If this keeps something like that from happening again, then I'll let them take my rights for a few hours. Riding a bus or train takes too long to see the family on the East Coast, but I might try the train the next time. but since 911 even the bus and trains are much like the planes.
 
I'll still fly because I know those rights I give up now were the rights that allowed 911 to happen. If this keeps something like that from happening again, then I'll let them take my rights for a few hours. Riding a bus or train takes too long to see the family on the East Coast, but I might try the train the next time. but since 911 even the bus and trains are much like the planes.

Did you even think about that for 2 minutes?

The right to carry fingernail clippers and box cutters and whatnot on a plane is not what allowed 9/11 to happen. The airlines' policy to always comply with hijackers, in case of a bomb, is what allowed it to happen. Those jihadists could have been armed with nothing but their bare hands, and they still would have gotten away with it.
 
I'm not familiar with those writings (I know Elmer Keith, but not that particular article). I don't see how a round ball could have a more impressive terminal effect than a conical or cylindrical bullet, assuming the same caliber and velocity. After all, the ball will be quite a bit lighter. If he was comparing projectiles with the same amount of propellant behind them, then perhaps that makes sense because the lighter ball would be expected to have much higher velocity.
The quote (paraphrase/summary) was from his book "Sixguns" in the open paragraph of Chapter 14 "Loading and Management of Cap and Ball Sixguns". Here is the exact quote.

"These conical pointed bullets gave more range and penetration than round balls, but never were as accurate in our guns, nor did they kill game as well as the round ball. The pointed bullets seemingly slipped through the game with a very small wound channel while the blunt round ball at fairly high velocitiy, tore a good wound channel all the way."

And again from later in the same chapter.

"For its size and weight nothing is so deadly as the round ball of pure lead when driven at fairly good velocity. ... Both Major R.E. Stratton and Samuel H. Fletcher told me that the .36 Navy (cap & ball revolver) was a far better man killer than any .38 Special they had ever seen used in gun fights."

You have to put this into perspective--this was WELL before the era of high performance self-defense rounds. You might say that the pure lead ball was the Cor-Bon ammunition of the day. High velocity for caliber and very likely to expand.
 
If the round ball stayed spherical, it wouldn't be very good. Spheres have a coefficient of drag constant (as a general rule, the higher the number, the lower the penetration and the bigger the hole) of only 0.355. In comparison, a 90 degree cone-nosed bullet is 0.52, a typical flatnose or truncated cone is 0.55, a typical roundnose is 0.57, expanded hollowpoints are 0.68, and cylinders are 0.83.

However, a roundball that is loaded into a cap and ball revolver usually gets smushed a little bit, flattening the front, and the higher velocity means they can deform more than conicals. I'd say a roundball from a pistol usually ends up around 0.55 to 0.65 after impact, depending on how hard it's rammed down, and what velocity it's shot at. Unfortunately, coefficient of drag constant isn't something you can really figure out by just looking at a recovered bullet.

At typical black powder pistol velocities, I can see how a roundball may make a slightly larger hole than a pointy conical, but a decent hollowpoint from a modern pistol would definitely beat it by a huge margin. A full wadcutter would also beat the ball, and may even retain velocity better at range, due to the heavier weight.
 
Ryan, Your making my head hurt!!:) It's really this simple. ....I don't want to be in front of a round ball or conical from a cap and ball anymore than I want to be in front of a modern projectile. Dead is Dead!!! the C&B Revolvers did a fair share of killing all kinds of critters over the years including man and it still does the same today.
Way to many factors come into play with the cap and ball to be able to accurately say how it will react in the human body or any animal even though I do agree with your figures and thoughts on the subject. Mike
 
Ryan,
I retrieved one of my .451 Dia Round balls from the steel target at my last CAS shoot I loaded 35 Grns BP. no wad and RK's Lube over the ball. The ball mushroomed to the dia of a Quarter and the center(away from the target) remained spherical and was almost 1/8 thick at the apex of the sphere. It looked like a button as there was no fragmentation of the ball at all.

Now the 248 Grn .451 Dia bullet (44 Rem.)(30 grn BP) I recovered had mushroomed to the size of an old(1880's) Silver Dollar and was fragmented like a fan blade but the heel expanded from .429 dia to almost .640 and you can still see the lube grooves and the drive bands and the rifling cuts upon the drive bands on the blades of the fan(for a better description). I posted ppictures on the Firing Line BP/ Cowboy Action Shooting forum. I don't remember which thread though.
Big and slow is the trick!.........
,,,,,,,, and I'd not want to get hit with either one.
 
Old Dragoon

A steel target aint a people or animal as far as expanding bullets. Happily though, you're right in a way as pure lead on tissue is one of the finest materials you could wish for.

And when you aint gotta lotta velocity and energy, ya need ta help with design/shape of bullet ta get the best crush and tear ya can. Its why i use those gunsmith designed 'Killumquick' slugs in solid and hollow pointed versions.
 
Yep Steel isn't flesh, but it gives one the idea somewhat of what would happen if a bone were struck.
Don't matter, I don't want to be on the receiving end at 100 yds.
 
Old Dragoon said:
Yep Steel isn't flesh, but it gives one the idea somewhat of what would happen if a bone were struck.
Don't matter, I don't want to be on the receiving end at 100 yds.

Hah! I'll see yer hundred yards and raise ya to ANY distance! :)
 
Manyirons said:
Hah! I'll see yer hundred yards and raise ya to ANY distance! :)

OK. Am standing on the North Bank of the Gironde, 10 kms North of Blaye at the Belle Etoile on the RIGHT of the slipway with a red carnation in my left hand which is stretched out. I suppose the light has gone has it - bl--dy typical!!

So much for a serious post!!!!
Duncan
 
Duncan,
Wait...Wait...til I bend the bbl to the right curvature of the earth,,,,I can almost see you, tho it is very dark. :what: Glad there can be levity here. :what:
 
OK. Am standing on the North Bank of the Gironde, 10 kms North of Blaye at the Belle Etoile on the RIGHT of the slipway with a red carnation in my left hand which is stretched out. I suppose the light has gone has it - bl--dy typical!!


Where is Quigly when you need him! :)
 
You guys remind me of the fellow that would drive past a guy working in a field every day. after about 20 day the realized that the man had the same flannel shirt on every day so he stopped and just had to ask the guy the reason,
the worker laid down his shovel and exclaimed: "You know Same Shirt...Different Day! ":neener:
 
"Co-efficient of drag", I'm not sure, but I think refers to the percentage compared to a round ball. All I have ever seen was the "ballistic co-efficient", your term is alien to me. Well, not really, but usually in terms of automobiles in a wind tunnel

It all comes down to aerodynamics. A round ball, being the smallest volume that can be for a given mass, goes like hell for a relatively short distance. But, at that distance, it can be devastating. Kieth said it, Cumpston said it, many others say it. And the US Army said it best, or the Marines, during the Phillipines Insurrection. The great .38 of the time would not kill the, what, Moros? After multiple hits? A short fat .45 slug would, near a sphere, at the ranges shot.

Cheers,

George
 
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