Reason for the Chief Special configuration?

[David E]

claim that you know another’s skill level (“I'm sure there is a vast difference in ability!”).

In Post #32, in response to my statement: "Maybe our view of 'fast' is different." Guillermo said:

or maybe we have a difference in ability

I AGREED with him and he accuses me of "knowing another's skill level?"

You also do not put standards that are unreasonable and suggest that only quickest of the people in gun gaming are fast (1/2 second between shots “and we're not talking "fast" anymore”).

Often, to avoid confusion, we need to define our terms so both parties know what is being discussed. Also, to understand the context in which comments are made.

"Fast," I've found, means many things to different people, so I defined it so we'd all know where I was coming from. My comments relating to the advantages of a higher grip on the gun has everything to do with hitting at speed. If you're shooting slowfire, grip doesn't matter one whit. Any advantage of this gun over that is moot if the gun isn't used within the context presented.

Likewise, if someone never tried a certain technique, then how can they know it wouldn't work better than what they're doing?

Firing at a rate of 1/2 second per shot at a 5 yd IPSC target keeping all shots in the "A" zone is not "unreasonable," or even difficult for the serious handgunner.

Now don't think I'm insulting guillermo or anyone else with that 'serious handgunner' comment. I bet he could make that rate of fire, or come very, very close on his first try. I'd be surprised if he couldn't, but if not, then with a little bit of instruction he most certainly could.

Most people do not understand what they can do within short time frames, in this case, a 1/2 second. They erroneously conclude that they can't do it, no one else can do anything that fast, either. This is usually a simple matter of illucidation. Most folks are surprised to learn how fast they already can do things.

I am not talking about printing the tightest DA group ever at 1/2 second per shot, just keeping all shots inside the 6x11 inch "A" zone, or inside the 8" circle of the IDPA target.

You CAN do it, but you gotta go out there and give it a try.

 

[M2 Carbine]

"...So, ...use(ing) a 5 inch circle as a must hit area is still correct....
---Almost, but not quite. That's an accurate statement for most experienced shooters--IMO. It is NOT the way to use this drill for new / novice / inexperienced shooters who are either indoctrinated or practiced in "accuracy" shooting.

Thanks Jim,
The 5 inch target is just for me, and a few other's to play with.

I let the new shooters use the whole 8.5x11 inch paper.

But they have to shoot from 7 yards and the target is rocking.

 

[David E]

If that target was swinging and she was shooting DA, (or even SA) then that's pretty good shooting !

Sign her up !!

 

[Guillermo]

does anyone else find this as funny as me?

a clairvoyant man, a liar or a fool expresses knowledge of things that he has no way of knowin

refuse to read what I actually wrote, attack things I didn't write, then call me a liar

 

[Gary A]

Well...I have the best of both worlds - 37-2 with bobbed hammer, that way I have a snag-free revolver that can only fire double-action AND I can get lint in the action also.

 

[David E]

Gary, now there's a dual purpose gun !!

 

[M2 Carbine]

If that target was swinging and she was shooting DA, (or even SA) then that's pretty good shooting !

Sign her up !!

I was rocking the target (pulling string) fast. That was about a month ago. I don't remember but I'm sure she was shooting DA. Most all their close in fast shooting is DA.
She is good. Her friend (who has only shot twice) and she constantly surprises me.

Last week both of the girls were doing so good side by side, back-peddling while shooting the Texas CHL targets COM and head shots, I told them,
"You are making this look too easy, shoot single hand left handed for a while."
And they did.

I'm proud of my girls.

 

[David E]

M2, you got a couple of good shooters there.

It also is part of my point. I bet these girls didn't know they weren't supposed to be able to do that, so they went ahead and did it!

Had they engaged in an online discussion about doing it prior to the shooting session, they probably would've disagreed with anyone saying it could be done.

They have a good instructor!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I've found the easiest way to do the "quad-five" drill is with a 5" diameter paper pie plate. BTW, if and when you actually achieve your goal add movement to the same drill and see how interesting it gets!! LOL

Gentlemen, may I suggest calming down before one of the Mods has to step in. I doubt that will be a pleasant experiance. Justified or not there are way too many posts that are off-topic and in poor taste. We are all supposed to be better than that...

 

[M2 Carbine]

M2, you got a couple of good shooters there.

It also is part of my point. I bet these girls didn't know they weren't supposed to be able to do that, so they went ahead and did it!

Had they engaged in an online discussion about doing it prior to the shooting session, they probably would've disagreed with anyone saying it could be done.

They have a good instructor!

I like teaching females to shoot. They listen to you and usually don't have a lot of preconceived notions, so like you said, they go ahead and do it.

Some do have trouble with the stock DA trigger pull at first. I put weaker rebound springs in a couple J Frames to get them started. After a little bit I'll give them J Frames with stock springs and they don't even notice.

 

[oldfool]

well, original topic seems lost somewhere along the way, but since everybody has opinions...

speed and accuracy has nothing to do with SA vs SA/DA vs DAO, nor does is there anything such as "best" gun, one shoe does not fit all
it has everything to do with practice
Comfort, Competence, Confidence, Consistency, plus thousands of rounds fired with whatever best fits in your hand, not someone else's hand, no matter what the bore axis is or ain't, no matter the grip style that best suits their own gun/hand

personal preferences
I like SA/DA and practice both, weekly
same gun in hand, I do shoot "differently" in slow-fire SA vs rapid fire DA
no stretch of imagination required to recognize situations in which cocking the hammer (for at least the 1st shot) is both advantageous and realistic
(I don't pocket carry SA/DA revolvers, and I will not pull and/or cock a revolver in self defense unless I am trying to kill somebody, so if it goes off, it goes off)
1/2 second between rounds is no great speed trick (with consistent COM hits at distances like 5-7 yards), it does require regular practice, and too many folks simply do not practice DA as much as they could/should. If anybody as s-l-o-w as me can do, anybody can do
1/4 second is FAST, to be envied, takes dedication to get to that level (I never will, but there are people who can do that in each of those categories.. SA, DA, DAO... extreme few people, if any, can do the same with all three)

I prefer to practice DA shooting at 12-15 yards, because if I can hold a half decent group there, I figure I can do at least as well at 5-7 yards... if the adrenaline fear/stress poopy-in-my-britches factor don't count

but "this ain't Dodge, and me ain't Bill Hickock"
if I run into John Wesley Hardin in a foul mood, I am a dead man, no matter what type gun either of us is carrying

PS
hammerless DAO compact lightweight snubbies are mighty handy for CCW
the reasons for their development have everything to do with just that, irrespective of whether they do or do not shoot best for YOU

 

[Guillermo]

I like teaching females to shoot. They listen to you and usually don't have a lot of preconceived notions, so like you said, they go ahead and do it.

That has been my experience as well. In addition they often have better dexterity.

Swerving back to the original query, the best natural shooter of snubs (yes it had a hammer) was a new shooter, a friend's wife. He is smart enough to get someone else to teach his wife.

Started her with a 4inch Smith but she wanted to shoot the snub. Her shots were not as fast but just as good with the short barrel at 7 yards.

She now carries a shrouded hammer Smith in a concealed carry handbag. (I also taught her RADS self defense. http://www.rad-systems.com She is VERY UNLIKELY to become a victim)

 

[David E]

1/2 second between rounds is no great speed trick (with consistent COM hits at distances like 5-7 yards), it does require regular practice, and too many folks simply do not practice DA as much as they could/should. If anybody as s-l-o-w as me can do it, anybody can do it.

True. With a little bit of practice, 1/2 second per shot with accuracy isn't hard to acheive. To argue to the contrary exposes the dissenters lack of skill.

1/4 second is FAST, to be envied, takes dedication to get to that level

A bit more dedication, perhaps, but not nearly as much as most people think. Getting the trigger moving that fast isn't difficult, but getting those shots on paper is where the challenge comes in. The latter is a technique issue, not a trigger speed issue. But it's not that hard when you know how.

 

[MCgunner]

I shoot SA at the range all the time. So sue me. I know how to and I know when to shoot DA. I do practice. I prefer the option. I do own guns that are SA only. Have no DA only revolvers, though I do have a couple of pocket autos.

Yes, the hammer spur is handy if I carry in my thumb strap Uncle Mikes ankle rig. I draw from my pocket with my thumb on the hammer instinctively. My thumb is my hammer shroud.

To each his own.

 

[18DAI]

I have carried a six shot revolver everyday for over 35 years.

I was trained by instructors to fire EVERY shot DA........well.....there was one LEO instructor had us take a dozen 50 yard shots SA. Claimed that if we had to engage a rifle armed individual it might come in handy.....so we could get to the shotgun in the trunk.

Other than that I can't remember the last time I cocked the hammer on a revolver other than to clean it or inspect the firing pin.

I won't boast or toot my own horn, but according to the folks I compete with I'm plenty fast and accurate for an old guy. I can group six 38's into 4" at 25 yards as fast as I can pull the trigger on my S&W 66-2 4".....DA of course. I reckon that is good enough.....is for me anyway.

Who's fast or whats fast isn't worth fussing over IMO. Who's accurate is the only important thing. Can't believe everything you read on the internet either. TJ

 

[David E]

Who's accurate FIRST is the only important thing.

Fixed it for you !

 

[M2 Carbine]

well.....there was one LEO instructor had us take a dozen 50 yard shots SA. Claimed that if we had to engage a rifle armed individual it might come in handy.....so we could get to the shotgun in the trunk.

I guess sometime after 1960, when I was a LEO, DA shooting came in style.
As I recall, and that was a long time ago, DA shooting just wasn't done. We would shoot DA for the heck of sometimes but it was just considered spray and pray fun.

This thread has got me wanting to do some long range DA shooting.
One of my favorite small handgun targets is a 2x2 foot square steel plate at 52 yards, that I shoot at standing.
A personal challenge is getting 50 straight hits with the 2-3 inch J Frame, SA. Last time I shot 50 rounds at the steel I missed shots 41 and 42.


Anyhow, DA should be a interesting challenge.

 

[oldfool]

"But it's not that hard when you know how."
Wrong.

You and I do not differ in opinions quite so much as you may think, but there is a very large difference in perspectives.
It's simply NOT that hard to "know how", there is no big mystery, it is not a well kept secret. Read a book, hang out around THR, watch a video. If that don't work, get somebody like Guillermo to show you how ... or your uncle, or your grandfather, or your wife; anybody who can demonstrate that the target can be consistently hit. No big deal. Hang around the local gun range, be patient and polite. No "tactical shooting school" instruction required.
If you don't "know how" within 2 hours of friendly, non-professional simple instruction, you are just not paying attention. Shooting accurately in either SA and/or DA mode is not about knowledge, it's practice time.

Whole lotta stuff I know how to do that I still don't do worth squat, despite real serious dedication and lots of practice.. including non-gun-related... (don't ask)

"A bit more dedication"
If dedication only equals desire and knowledge, and/or expert advice, not so.
You could ask weekend golfers about beating Tiger Woods at golf, NY playground guys about beating Jordan one-on-one, or 10 million highly dedicated high school & college football guys about dedication. If dedication equals available resource time, opportunity (and ammo dollars) for PRACTICE, yes. Number and frequency of rounds fired, no substitute. Dry fire, laser fire, all can help, but no substitute for real rounds sent downrange.

The good news is that learning to shoot DA rapid fire accurately (at 1/4 second splits) is easier than beating Tiger or Jordan at their game.
The bad news is that Munden and Miculek can do ~0.20 second splits (last I heard)
The good news is that you can too, with a little more dedication.
The bad news is that that extreme few weekend shooters (or LEOs for that matter) have the discretionary time & resource available to put in the practice rounds required.
The better news is that absent *extraordinary* bad luck, and/or a remarkably adventurous life style, and/or poor judgment, "1/4 second splits speed" will never make a difference in your longevity, but it might win some fun contests. Maybe some money too.

"Who's accurate FIRST is the only important thing."
NO
Who's accurate LAST is the most important thing in a gun fight.

If you get two COM hits in 1/2 second and the BG don't drop, but instead puts one thru your forehead 0.05 seconds later, you still lose.
(and at 5 yards & closing you better get a head/heart/spinal cord hit, "COM" will not do, or some incompetent zealous idiot with a large kitchen knife will send you to the morgue, even if you do die slower)
none of which means accurate speed is a handicap, but luck trumps skill every time.. always has
Above all else, strive mightily to avoid contests where it really matters who is first or last.

but do keep working on those splits every chance you get
after all, just how how hard can it be to pick up 0.05 seconds ??
mebbe even shoot some SA every now and then, just for giggles...
(believe it or not, there might be things you can learn doing that that you might not already "know"... or mebbe not)

PS
I been thinkin' about mebbe trying a Ruger LCR (DAO, you know); I hear they have pretty decent triggers

 

[David E]

"But it's not that hard when you know how."
Wrong.

It's simply NOT that hard to "know how", there is no big mystery, it is not a well kept secret.

Correct, it's NOT hard to do, once you know how. Shooting fast isn't hard, but hitting fast requires a little bit of know how. Learning how isn't difficult, but as this thread reveals, not everyone has discovered "how" to hit fast.

"A bit more dedication"
If dedication only equals desire and knowledge, and/or expert advice, not so.

We don't disagree. By dedication, I mean seeking out instruction where needed and practicing until the desired skill level is reached. (and a new level identified)

The good news is that learning to shoot DA rapid fire accurately (at 1/4 second splits) is easier than beating Tiger or Jordan at their game.
The bad news is that Munden and Miculek can do ~0.20 second splits (last I heard)

Jerry's revolver speed records had his splits (time between shots) at .14. Munden can maybe do better, but he uses two hands and he can only keep it up for 3 shots total.

"Who's accurate FIRST is the only important thing."
NO
Who's accurate LAST is the most important thing in a gun fight.

If you get two COM hits in 1/2 second and the BG don't drop, but instead puts one thru your forehead 0.05 seconds later, you still lose.

Hardly. By that logic, taking a shot to the eyesocket and getting off a shot into his eyesocket as I fall down dead makes my shot "most important" because it was last??? That's plain silly.

Getting accurate shots into your target before the target gets them into you is always a good thing. No one said it was an iron-clad guarantee of unscathed victory, but I sure as hell won't give up fast accuracy just in case the other guy gets lucky and makes it all moot. I can only address those things I can address. In your quirky example, you're both dead. As I said, being accurate fast isn't a guarantee, but it's a very good place to start. Fast accuracy beats the snot out of s-l-o-w accuracy.

believe it or not, there might be things you can learn doing that that you might not already "know"... or mebbe not

Unlike many on this board, there's a boat load about shooting that I don't know. That's why I practice, that's why I take classes, that's why I dryfire, that's why every shot I take is an effort to get better.

 

[olyeller]

Quote:
Then you're obviously shooting too slow.

I have never been accused of that but then again, I have never shot against a master like you or Jerry Michulek (of course I don't hear Jerry whining about muzzle flip)

Actually, Guillermo, its GRANDmaster.

Hi David!

 

[Guillermo]

Actually, Guillermo, its GRANDmaster

some handle success with more grace than others

 

[olyeller]

last i checked, "grace" wasnt one of Jeff Cooper's principles of self defense.

 

[Guillermo]

last i checked, "grace" wasnt one of Jeff Cooper's principles of self defense.

Nobody suggested that "grace" was of tactical benefit. While perhaps you don't, nor find it a positive characteristic in those with which you associate, some do. Many of us avoid those with the class and grace of Mohommad Ali.

It is constructive to mention that Jeff Cooper was quite fond of the concealed hammer J frame. He said something to the effect that "the Centennial revolver constitutes the best choice for use as a back-up gun" (not an exact quote)

 

[Gary A]

Since "grace" is generally first defined as "elegance and beauty of movement, form, expression, or proportion", it seems to me to have great relevance to self-defense. Seems to me it is a significant factor in all forms of martial art and somewhat akin to the famous concept that the most important thing in a gunfight is to be "fast real slow". Self-defense is the last place one would wish to be clumsy and random.

Things which exhibit gracefulness are often considered "elegant" which in engineering is defined as something that has the attribute of being unusually effective and simple. Elegant things exhibit refined grace. Graceful things are elegant. Everything you need and nothing you don't. No wasted motion or bells and whistles.

Whether he defined it as a principle or not, Cooper's teaching was all about "grace".

I think that "grace" is to be desired in everything. Then again, I'm just thinking with a keyboard.

 

[Guillermo]

Guess I should have used the term "class" or "dignity" as they would conveyed the thought more accurately.

Swerving back to the OP, were I arguing for a hammerless j-frame I would mention that the incomparable COl Cooper shared my opinion.