Reason for the Chief Special configuration?

[Landric]

I went with the Chief, the 37-2 in my case, because at the time it was the only NIB no-lock/no MIM S&W available. Mine is DAO though, so I'm not sure how that relates to the discussion. I do all my revolver shooting DA though, hammer spur or not.

 

[Deanimator]

My lawyer (and friend) had a client going up the river who needed to get rid of one. I got it for $200.

 

[David E]

My SA/DA is snag free and speedy accurate,

It always amuses me when someone claims to have overcome the laws of physics. The SA/DA configuration has a higher recoil arc. (Presuming that serious loads are being used) The higher the arc, the slower the return to target, the slower the follow-up shot(s).

I have the option of a single action shot. Some of us like options....some of us don't.

Some of us practice, some of us don't...........

 

[Guillermo]

It always amuses me when someone claims to have overcome the laws of physics.

it says something about our educational system when one reads clear English and yet perceive something that was not stated.

Some of us practice, some of us don't

it is amazing that you know so much about "us".

Sorry but you might need to polish off your crystal ball or give the old tarrow cards a shuffle.

Might even try with the reading comprehension too. "We" never said that we can't shoot double action, just that "we" like the SA option.

Of course some folks just misunderstand on purpose so as to rattle cages. You have to appreciate someone that is willing to play that part to keep the boards lively.

 

[Stophel]

I bobbed the hammer on mine. It was a pocket snaggin' son of a gun. I would prefer it still be SA-capable, but it is smooth, and I can shoot it well enough DA. Smoothed off that finger-grinding serrated trigger too.




The Bodyguard, of course, would take care of that, but they're actually kinda hard to come across.

 

[David E]

Guillermo, perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us how having a higher bore axis, necessitated by having a lower grip resulting in a more pronounced muzzle flip doesn't slow down your accurate, fast follow-up shots.

Or maybe our view of "fast" is different. I'm talking .25 maximum between shots. Make that .50+, more than twice as long, and we're not talking "fast" anymore.

Oh, and it's not "tarrow," but "Tarot." And I don't need them to read what I'm seeing in your posts.

 

[Guillermo]

Or maybe our view of "fast" is different.

or maybe we have a difference in ability

Oh, and it's not "tarrow," but "Tarot."

you're the expert

 

[Stophel]

I must be doing something wrong. My hand is in the same position whether I'm shooting SA or DA...

 

[M2 Carbine]

Some of us practice, some of us don't...........

I said I don't like DA.

"I said I never had much use for one. Never said I didn't know how to use it."

 

[M2 Carbine]

I must be doing something wrong. My hand is in the same position whether I'm shooting SA or DA...

Due to the grip on some of my revolvers, like the above Rossi for example, I have to change my grip between SA and DA.
If I used that gun as a defense gun I would replace the grips to allow the same hold for SA & DA.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Or maybe our view of "fast" is different. I'm talking .25 maximum between shots. Make that .50+, more than twice as long, and we're not talking "fast" anymore.

.25 maximum at what distance, what allowable 5 shot spread, with what gun and done repeatedly?

 

[Kleanbore]

Here's an interesting discussion on the subject from The Snubnose Files:

Excerpts:

...people who carry a revolver for self defense should practice almost exclusively for double action fire, as if the single action option wasn't even there. Why? Because there are almost no situations in which single action fire is appropriate in self defense. Most self defense situations unfold rapidly. There isn't time to thumb cock a revolver and take careful aim in the way one would do while target shooting. A cocked revolver is dangerous in the adrenaline dump of a lethal force encounter. The trigger is just too light. Its too easy to fire when you don't mean to.

In a nervous situation, a cocked revolver is dangerous. When you're really nervous or scared, the heavy double action trigger pull is an asset rather than a liability.

None of the above mitigates against a DA/SA revolver if you will never cock the hammer. Read on, however:

A firm double action trigger can be a welcome piece of insurance against an accidental discharge. With a DAO revolver, manual cocking isn't possible, nor is it possible to be accused of negligently cocking the hammer in a civil action which could follow a self defense shooting.

I'm not sure what being accused has to do with a civil action--either you hit someone wrongly or you don't--but perhaps the issue of negligence enters into the question.

It goes on:

As we have often seen before, all handguns are studies in compromise. For a self defense revolver, the DAO format seems to be an acceptable trade-off. Single action fire is sacrificed for superb, snag-free conceal-ability and the elimination of certain liabilities.

When police officers still routinely carried revolvers, some departments required that only DAO revolvers be carried. People often attribute this to civil liability, but litigation aside, might the simple concept of making people safer not enter into the decision?

Continuing with the excerpts:

Is there a case to be made for the DA/SA? A little imagination can generate scenarios in which single action fire could be an asset: a hostage situation, a survival situation in which a careful shot on a game animal might make the difference between living and starving, some kind of broken field situation in which there is an active threat but it is further away than a few yards. Admittedly, these all fall into the one-in-a-million category, but if its possible, it could happen.

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/daovdasa.htm

I selected a Centennial on the basis of advice that cocking the revolver in a self-defense situation is unwise; because, all of the "you can put your thumb over the hammer" discussion aside, it reduces the likelihood of snagging; and because it better lends itself to pocket carry. That's not my usual carry method now, but sometimes it better meets my needs than other methods.

However, I can shoot more accurately with a semi-automatic pistol with its lighter trigger pull. I am by no means an expert, but it seems to me that being able to hit the right target reduces the likelihood of inadvertently hitting the wrong one. How that balances with the risk of an unintentional discharge I cannot judge.

I have a Model 60 that I like to shoot but I do not carry it. If I did I would se only the dA mode in a self defense situation.

To each his own.

 

[David E]

Guillermo, perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us how having a higher bore axis, necessitated by having a lower grip resulting in a more pronounced muzzle flip doesn't slow down your accurate, fast follow-up shots.

You failed to answer this the first time.....

Or maybe our view of "fast" is different.

or maybe we have a difference in ability

Oh, I'm sure there is a vast difference in ability!

 

[Stophel]

For a full size gun, I MUST have SA. I would never have a large gun that was DAO.

I am very used to shooting single action. It is very natural to me.

 

[David E]

M2 Carbine,

First of all, nice accurate shooting. Many folks cannot master the DA pull, no matter how slow they go.

Do your above times include a draw? Or did the gun start in the hands? What load?

My take on defensive firearm use is to put the rounds on target in a short time. Shooting slowly and putting the rounds in a golfball size group isn't what I'm after.

My typical target is the IPSC metric cardboard target, or the IDPA version. The IPSC has an "A" zone that is about 6"x11" The IDPA has an 8" circle.

I consider 5 rounds inside the "A" zone or inside the 8" circle at 5 yds in the shortest time possible more realistic than a golfball size group done slowly.

The .25 maximum time between shots (often called the "split time" or simply "splits") comes into play at the very plausible defensive distance of 5 yds or less. Obviously, the longer the distance, the longer the splits.

Given this criteria, shooting at a 5 yd target, 5 shots in 3 seconds would be a maximum time. Less if starting with the gun already in hand.

 

[Guillermo]

Guillermo, perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us how having a higher bore axis, necessitated by having a lower grip resulting in a more pronounced muzzle flip doesn't slow down your accurate, fast follow-up shots.

I never claimed that a higher grip would not theoretically quell muzzle flip so it would be silly for me to answer.

That said, I have not noticed any difference when shooting a borrowed DOA j frame and my model 36 (which I am about to sell).

My shots are quick an accurate with my double action 72 Colt DS and better than either J Frame.

Oh, I'm sure there is a vast difference in ability!

I would suggest that you practice more since your double action shots are apparently not "fast an accurate" with a sa/da revolver. A little trigger time and they too can be fast and accurate. Might work on the old wrist muscles too.

 

[David E]

That said, I have not noticed any difference when shooting a borrowed DOA j frame and my model 36 (which I am about to sell).

Then you're obviously shooting too slow.

I would suggest that you practice more since your double action shots are apparently not "fast an accurate" with a sa/da revolver.

I can always use more practice. While I shot fast and accurate enough to make "Master" in both USPSA and IDPA, and won the State Revolver Title a couple years ago, I can always get better.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Aside from being able to fire SA as well as DA, is there any reason for choosing a Chief Special configurations (that is with the exposed hammer), when there is the concealed hammer version?

Aside from that, I can't think of any other reason for it. Having the option of either SA or DA is reason enough for me.

 

[M2 Carbine]

M2 Carbine,

First of all, nice accurate shooting. Many folks cannot master the DA pull, no matter how slow they go.

Do your above times include a draw? Or did the gun start in the hands? What load?

Full load 158gr lead SWC is all I practice with.

Much/most of my pistol shooting is on the backyard range which has a somewhat small berm and houses behind.
I have some self imposed safety rules, one of which is no fast drawing from the holster. Those times are starting with the gun pointed down.
I do some holster work on the rifle range but seldom as close as 5 yards.

That 8.5x11 inch target is my standard for most shooting at all handgun distances out to 25 yards and sometimes 50 yards.
I consider the 4x6 inch elliptical circle as COM but sometimes consider the 7 inch square body to be COM for some shooting.

Overall I consider speed takes a back seat to accuracy. What good is speed when missing the target.
When practicing I score 100 percent or Zero. A miss is not acceptable and cancels out the rest of the shots, the BG killed you.
So, with that bottom line I work on improving the speed.

I sometimes shoot at 5 yards but don't much like it, it's just too darn close. But I believe I'll have to see about that 5 shots inside 8 inches at 5 yards, in 3 seconds, but I haven't been able to break 5 seconds inside 3 3/4 inches yet.

What's your average time?

 

[David E]

Overall I consider speed takes a back seat to accuracy. What good is speed when missing the target.

What good is an accurate shot that gets fired after you've been hit multiple times?

When practicing I score 100 percent or Zero. A miss is not acceptable and cancels out the rest of the shots, the BG killed you.

It looks to me like you're practicing for defensive situations, but you consider 5 yds too close? Most shootings are 5 yds or closer!

Focusing too much on accuracy can get you killed. I'd rather take a good shot now than a perfect shot one second later. At least 40% of the time, there are multiple attackers, so taking too much time on one target can get you killed, as well.

What I mean by that is taking the time to hit that second shirt button is slowing down my shot too much. I'll accept anything within an 8" or even 10" circle that's COM.

At no time have I ever suggested shooting faster than you can hit. But predictably, the "accuracy above all" crowd assumes that going fast means missing often. I teach a class that shows how to be fast AND accurate. It takes time to miss, not to mention ammo. Neither of which should be wasted in a defensive situation.

It appears that you are applying Bullseye techniques to Defensive skills. While there is minimal overlap, one allows a lot of time for very accurate shots, the other does not.

The "5 shots in 3 seconds @ 5 yds" was if you started with hands at sides, gun holstered. With gun already in hand, the time should be no more than 2.25 seconds.

I will go out to the range as soon as enough snow melts and report my results.

If "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final" is your mantra, then mine is "Speedy accuracy beats them all."

 

[Guillermo]

Then you're obviously shooting too slow.

I have never been accused of that but then again, I have never shot against a master like you or Jerry Michulek (of course I don't hear Jerry whining about muzzle flip)

 

[M2 Carbine]

It looks to me like you're practicing for defensive situations, but you consider 5 yds too close? Most shootings are 5 yds or closer!

Yes I consider spending too much time shooting at 5 yards a waste of time and boring.
Most brand new shooters can easily hit inside of 8 inches at 5 yards right away and in a short period of time can learn to do it realistically fast at further than 5 yards.

Unless they have a thing about beating someone in a quick draw contest at armpit smelling distance their time is better spent becoming a good fast shot at various distances and working on their situational awareness so they might prevent a threat from getting within 5 yards of them.

Most shootings are 5 yds or closer!

A smart man prepares for what is likely to happen.
A very smart man also prepares for what isn't likely to happen.

Of the four times I pulled my gun.
One was at arm's length.
One was about 15 yards.
The third was about 20 yards.
And the forth was during a Quick Stop hold up with distances of a car length to about 25 yards.
and not one time was a quick draw or quarter second rapid fire necessary.

I'm not much for the, "Most ***** happens at ******", mantra.


And come to think of it, three of the four times I cocked the hammer.





.

 

[jfh]

speaking of practice drills--Old Fuff's Quad Five is the place to start...

For people relatively new to carry-gun (revolver) practice:

Five Shots
Five Yards
Five inch group
Five seconds or less.

Use a blank piece of (typing) paper.

Practice should be built on the EdPsy notion of "successive approximations"--or, for you Skinnerians reading this, you're trying to reinforce successive moves to the feed dish. So, start with the base line above, shooting the way you are most comfortable--aimed, point, one-hand, whatever. The key to developing the various skills is through repetition--and vary only one element of the parameters at a time.

IOW--if it takes you more than five seconds to get all the shots on the paper, then concentrate on speeding up. If you are shooting 2" groups, then speed up on until the groups expand to five inch. Repeat each drill until you can do it at least ten times in a row. ADDED ON EDIT: One doesn't have to shoot all ten reps at the same range visit--just don't switch variables until you have done ten in a row.

And so on. Once you can repeatedly meet all five conditions--then start varying the distance: Go to 7 yards--or in to three. The key to it is repetition, and not changing more than one parameter at a time.

About two years ago, after seeing Old Fuff recommend this drill in another post, I used it to increase my proficiency. Once I got past the initial problems of 'stunning' recoil from my M&P 340, and once I sorted out a "Replica Reload" of the GDSB 38+P 135-gr. load, I concentrated on doing this drill in earnest--lots and lots of practice--at a nominal cost of about $5.50 for fifty rounds.

FWIW, I also started out using a CT dot, and moved away from any sort of aimed fire fairly quickly. That was a real problem, as I come at shooting from a marksmanship background--but learning flash sighting techniques helped break that aiming habit--and soon it became second nature to follow the dot, so to speak. I eventually got to a point where I could put two quad fives back-to-back with 'heavier' reloads (a 357 case with a 158-gr LSWC running about 920 fps) back to back--forget the reload time--before my hand wanted to quit. All five parameters were met.

Now I'm working on using the laser for 'pure' point-shooting learning. I'm not at five-inch groups at 7 yards right now because of lack of practice--but I'm not far away from it, either. And that's not using the sights. Now I'm adding in learning to move.

Again, the key to using these parameters is to 1) vary only one parameter at a time, and 2) repeat the drill until you can successfuly repeat it ten times in a row before varying another parameter.

Added on edit: To do a bit more disclosure--I also used a 640 during the initial phase of practice, as I started a "Replica Reloads" project as well. For me, a big factor was simply developing a well-conditioned hand--and the repetitions to put "muscle memory" in place. Over thirty months, I've shot about 22-25,000 rounds from my j-frames--about 2500 from the M&P 340, my daily carry gun. The drill works for all issues one may have, AFAICT.

Jim H.

 

[Guillermo]

thanks for the posting JFH

Old Fuff is a wise man

Thanks for the reminder to practice close.

 

[David E]

And come to think of it, three of the four times I cocked the hammer.

Interesting............did you rehearse doing that during your practice sessions?