jimmyraythomason
Member
How many "suspected felons" do the ATF normally send a letter of inquiry to for supposedly illegally buying a firearm? Doesn't sound like ATF S.O.P.
Received letter from ATF
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I would not ignore the letter. A letter to them or a phone call to them could save a future gun purchase denial or possibly a future arrest. How many times to we hear about a guy with the same name as a criminal getting arrested? It happens.
It seems odd to me that you passed the background check but then ATF kept digging and then you didn't pass but ok.
If that happened, and it got refered to the ATF, chances are this thing was assigned to an investigative agent (who probably has NO power to arrest) to figgure out, along with the rest of his heavy load. He can "clear" you, or refer you to an agent WITH arrest powers. Get with the investigative agent and help him clear it up.
Yes, ATF has investigative agents with no powers of arrest. They investigate possible crimes, and if they determine a crime happened, then it goes to the no-knock raid in the middle of the night. Don't sit on your butt here.
Deanimator
Member
Anybody who doesn't seek competent legal counsel when he's OBVIOUSLY a "person of interest" in a criminal investigation has no right to complain when things go south, possibly irretrievably so.
This goes a thousand-fold when dealing with the BATFE. You have NO idea what their REAL agenda is. If they'd produce an OFFICIAL training video on how to lie under oath about the accuracy of the NFA record keeping system, what makes you think they're telling the truth face to face, NOT under oath, much less in an unsolicited letter? And the law says that when not giving sworn testimony, they can lie all day, every day and twice on Sundays.
It costs too much to protect your legal interests? Sell a gun. Sell ALL your guns. It beats a prison stretch and not being allowed to OWN guns EVER again.
The people advising the OP not to seek competent counsel know that if the OP, through ignorance, digs himself a DEEP legal hole, he'll be falling on his sword in that hole by his lonesome. The "trust the BATFE" crowd will just wander off whistling, none the worse for wear, in search of the next rube who'll fall for their snake oil.
This goes a thousand-fold when dealing with the BATFE. You have NO idea what their REAL agenda is. If they'd produce an OFFICIAL training video on how to lie under oath about the accuracy of the NFA record keeping system, what makes you think they're telling the truth face to face, NOT under oath, much less in an unsolicited letter? And the law says that when not giving sworn testimony, they can lie all day, every day and twice on Sundays.
It costs too much to protect your legal interests? Sell a gun. Sell ALL your guns. It beats a prison stretch and not being allowed to OWN guns EVER again.
The people advising the OP not to seek competent counsel know that if the OP, through ignorance, digs himself a DEEP legal hole, he'll be falling on his sword in that hole by his lonesome. The "trust the BATFE" crowd will just wander off whistling, none the worse for wear, in search of the next rube who'll fall for their snake oil.
Lets say you're right and the BATFE is really out to get this guy. And as the BATFE knows this guy is as squeeky clean as he claims. How is his hiring a lawyer going to help him? "Call'em back from that raid! He's got a lawyer! Don't plant that machine gun in his house!"
If the ATF wants to frame the OP, his having a lawyer ahead of time won't do anything. I don't need a lawyer to talk to the ATF. I am not guilty of ANY firearms violations and I would have to be framed to get in trouble. My having a lawyer prior to being arrested won't help me.
His owning a gun is not a fact in question. It would only cause the OP to lose money and look guilty. Now personally depending on how my first phone call with the ATF went (because I would be placing it today) I might move all my guns to a friends house.
CoRoMo
Member
I don't totally get the idea behind this letter.
Did the ATF request anything of you, like demanding that you relinquish possession of your firearms? Did they ask you to respond? Or are they simply telling you, "We're watching you"?
What was the point of the letter?
Did the ATF request anything of you, like demanding that you relinquish possession of your firearms? Did they ask you to respond? Or are they simply telling you, "We're watching you"?
What was the point of the letter?
dogtown tom
Member
Can you post word for word what the ATF letter said? (with personally identifying information deleted)
I'm pretty sure there is a request for you to call or submit additional information to ATF.
.
jimmyraythomason
Member
I'm of this opinion(FWIW). If the ATF actually believes that you are a prohibited person who has illegally bought a gun ,they would be on your doorstep. I would contact the ATF directly and get it cleared up.
I cannot imagine the ATF would send you such a letter without also asking you to do something about the situation.
I suspect doing nothing is about the worst possible thing you could do.
As for a lawyer, my guess is the average lawyer has zero experience dealing with the ATF. I think the lawyer thing is a good idea, but you need someone who has some experience dealing with these type of bureaucrats.
I suspect doing nothing is about the worst possible thing you could do.
As for a lawyer, my guess is the average lawyer has zero experience dealing with the ATF. I think the lawyer thing is a good idea, but you need someone who has some experience dealing with these type of bureaucrats.
Darkness
Member
Now, this is just my opinion, but I say give them a call and find out what is up.
For a while now, I have had a guy's (and his wife's) credit information showing up on my credit reports with 2 of the three reporting agencies. He had the same first and last name, but different middle initial and different SSN. He lived in the same city I did (at the time). It took several phone calls and talking to a few higher-ups to get this all cleared.
Now, I know that credit agencies are not Federal investigative branches, but they do have a profound effect on everybody, so we expect them to be accurate. They linked one guys credit to me because of residency and first and last name. The ATF may be doing the same thing. That's why they send you a letter, is my guess. They have some info that is pretty close to your info, but not a 100% match. Thus, you should contact them to clear it up. Then, depending on the phone call, a lawyer might be in order.
For a while now, I have had a guy's (and his wife's) credit information showing up on my credit reports with 2 of the three reporting agencies. He had the same first and last name, but different middle initial and different SSN. He lived in the same city I did (at the time). It took several phone calls and talking to a few higher-ups to get this all cleared.
Now, I know that credit agencies are not Federal investigative branches, but they do have a profound effect on everybody, so we expect them to be accurate. They linked one guys credit to me because of residency and first and last name. The ATF may be doing the same thing. That's why they send you a letter, is my guess. They have some info that is pretty close to your info, but not a 100% match. Thus, you should contact them to clear it up. Then, depending on the phone call, a lawyer might be in order.
Blackbeard
Member
This debate is pointless without knowing what the letter was requesting. I doubt seriously that it was just an FYI letter.
Deanimator
Member
Hiring a lawyer will do for him what it does for ANYONE who's the subject of a criminal investigation. It ensures that his legal rights are going to be protected. Who ELSE do you think is going to do that, the BATFE? The BATFE is going to tell him how NOT to inadvertently incriminate himself?
You don't know what the BATFE knows, what they're doing or why. They're allowed BY LAW to lie to you about it.
I have as much intention of talking to the BATFE without counsel present as I do of performing eye surgery on myself.
That's like saying, "Having a doctor won't keep you from getting cancer." Probably not. But you'll probably know you've got cancer before it's inoperable and be able to do something about it. Of course if you pay attention to what he tells you, you might well avoid at least some cancers. I listen to what my lawyer tells me and would NEVER consent to ANY search or talk to ANY LEO without counsel in circumstances where it's not REQUIRED BY LAW, and where I might be a suspect or "person of interest".
No, but having money for a lawyer was raised as an issue. I'd rather sell a gun to pay my legal fees than to never be able to own a gun because I watched too many episodes of "The Practice" and thought I could out talk or out smart experienced criminal investigators who at one point were given the green light to commit perjury.
CoRoMo
Member
If this was the letter that I received, I'd call up the agent who sent it and ask a few questions. I would not answer any though. I'd tell them to check their facts and to send an apology letter when they get it right.
If that phone call gave me any reason to, or obviously, if the letter had anything additional that would necessitate it, I'd lawyer up pronto via a call to the NRA.
huntsman
Member
Hey I resemble that remark, remember the SSN is for tax purposes only it’s not for identification
brboyer
Member
Tell that to the State of Florida (and I think many/most/all) states in reference to the requirement to provide a Social Security card to obtain/renew a driver's license (Real ID) starting in 2010!Hey I resemble that remark, remember the SSN is for tax purposes only it’s not for identification
jimmyraythomason
Member
You SSN no longer enjoys the protection it once did. While my SSN is optional on a form 4473, I put it on there because I WANT them to know it is me and NOT a convicted felon buying the gun.
Gryffydd
Member
LOL Coromo.
I too fail to see the point in discussing this letter since Coromo's version includes everything we know about it... Now if we knew what they were requesting...
I too fail to see the point in discussing this letter since Coromo's version includes everything we know about it... Now if we knew what they were requesting...
stchman
Member
I agree with the posters that if the BATFE wanted to come get you a letter would not be sent.
If you have done nothing, then you have nothing to worry about. Contacting a lawyer who deals with these types of matters is not a bad idea. Remember, you have the right to legal consultation.
If you have done nothing, then you have nothing to worry about. Contacting a lawyer who deals with these types of matters is not a bad idea. Remember, you have the right to legal consultation.
As I've said, repeatedly
, NICS is run by the FBI. The FBI somehow decided the person may be prohibited and referred the matter to ATF, since ATF has responsibility for investigating gun crimes.
ATF has a variety of employees, but when it comes to NICS denials those are all investigated by GS-1811 Criminal Investigators, aka Special Agents, who have statutory law enforcement authority (meaning they most certainly do have "arrest powers").
As for the idiotic "no-knock raid in the middle of the night," comment, you should learn a little about how our legal system works, especially in the federal system. Of particular importance is that any service a search warrant must be done during the daytime, unless a judge grants special permission for night time service. That is so rare that in my several years of federal law enforcement I have never seen a federal judge grant a warrant allowing night time service, even when we were dealing with extremely violent suspects who were known to be armed.
There is a lot of ignorant advice, and ignorant statements being thrown around on this thread.
As to the "investigators" at ATF with "no arrest powers," maybe you mean the Industry Operations Investigators, who have no involvement with NICS denial referrals. They work primarily on regulatory matters, such as inspections of FFLs and FELs. They most certainly do not follow up on NICS denials.
Sure they have to prove a person's guilt to get a conviction. However, probable cause is all that's needed to get search warrants and arrest warrants.
If it were me that got the letter I would contact ATF to straighten this out, to head off any other problems to include, but not limited to, future NICS denials. If someone is afraid to do that, then get a lawyer and have the lawyer contact ATF.
I misspoke so I'll fix it:
It seems odd to me that you passed the background check but then FBI kept digging and then you didn't pass but ok.
My friend never gave me an exact breakdown of who investigated what, but a number of her cases started out from these non-power of arrest people, then got dropped in her lap when that person determine a crime had been commited.
Picking up felons with guns was a big part of her job and they went in with teams of people and at all hours, depending on the person's history and depending on the information of the current case. Her name was Kim Place. She worked for the ATF back east, then worked in Dallas for a number of years, then transfered back east. Then died in a car wreck.
FlaChef
Member
IF the letter is the equivalent of a denied check (albeit delivered late), then doesn't the new NCIS revision have a contingency to reimburse legal expenses for a successful appeal to a 'denied" response?
Rollis R. Karvellis
Member
I say contact the NRA, there advise would be a lot sounder then a lot of keyboard commandos, my self included.
green-grizzly
Member
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I had the state revoke my concealed permit because some other guy with the same first and last name who at one point lived in my town had a domestic violence conviction. These kind of screw-ups happen, usually becuase the people who keep track of the data are lazy. It was pretty easy to clear up. I'd just call them. I think calling a lawyer first is an overreaction.
dogrunner
Member
RBERNIE:
My commentary was based on way over three decades as a LEO/CLEO in a very active area. I have had extensive exposure to both the criminal aspects of law as well as civil. The approach outlined by the OP attributed to BATFE is WAY round the bend in term of the initiation of any criminal action if the OP IS NOT a prohibited person.
You all advise the IMMEDIATE hiring of legal counsel. Well, folks, I'm here to tell you that that is sure a great way to spend someone else's money real quick! And the simple fact is that if there is no case, there IS NO case. Why would one run to an attorney for something that has utterly no basis in fact? Believe me, if criminal prosecution was anticipated there'd be a lot more happening than the inane letter described...........and darn quick too! I cannot imagine any US Attorny signing off on a warrant application lacking further investigation.............and THATS when you hire counsel!
And yeah, RBERNIE, it is a fact that you do not have to prove your innocence and it is also a fact that severe penalty's exist under CH18USC for violation of ones civil rights that attach both civil and criminal redress.
I have been to Federal Ct. on alleged CR violations in the capacity of a witness/supervisor and I can assure you most emphatically that those juries are NOT the stupid lawyer led sheep that some would like to believe of them and given the factual background will make the right call.
No, I would not entertain doing anything relative to the scenario presented UNTIL it was necessary.
Now. pray tell, what's your background to advocate otherwise?
My commentary was based on way over three decades as a LEO/CLEO in a very active area. I have had extensive exposure to both the criminal aspects of law as well as civil. The approach outlined by the OP attributed to BATFE is WAY round the bend in term of the initiation of any criminal action if the OP IS NOT a prohibited person.
You all advise the IMMEDIATE hiring of legal counsel. Well, folks, I'm here to tell you that that is sure a great way to spend someone else's money real quick! And the simple fact is that if there is no case, there IS NO case. Why would one run to an attorney for something that has utterly no basis in fact? Believe me, if criminal prosecution was anticipated there'd be a lot more happening than the inane letter described...........and darn quick too! I cannot imagine any US Attorny signing off on a warrant application lacking further investigation.............and THATS when you hire counsel!
And yeah, RBERNIE, it is a fact that you do not have to prove your innocence and it is also a fact that severe penalty's exist under CH18USC for violation of ones civil rights that attach both civil and criminal redress.
I have been to Federal Ct. on alleged CR violations in the capacity of a witness/supervisor and I can assure you most emphatically that those juries are NOT the stupid lawyer led sheep that some would like to believe of them and given the factual background will make the right call.
No, I would not entertain doing anything relative to the scenario presented UNTIL it was necessary.
Now. pray tell, what's your background to advocate otherwise?
JohnBT
Member
I vote for picking up the phone and calling the person who sent the letter to ask, "What's this about?" They know where you live already, it's not like you'd be giving them any additional info.
John
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