Record number of illegal immigrants tried to buy guns this year

[crestoncowboy]

I live in the number one county in the world for christmas tree exportation. (Most years). I'm forced to stay somewhat impartial on this topic. Well that or worry myself to death over something I can't help, which I tend to not do. I'm leaving my opinions out of it completely. I don't have trees but I know many that do, plus I have land bordering tree farms in a few places.
I see thousands of illegals. They constantly stab each other but nearly none have fire arms. Most would never try to legally buy one either. They know the law and don't want their name (either of them. Lol) on anything. They won't even accept a check so I can't picture them putting their name(or whoever's name) on a legal form. I've talked to many and know a few. Some became legal, most have been up here for 10+years and let their temporary legality expire as it increases greatly in price after a few years. As of Right now I know 50 or more around and see hundreds in town. I don't ask about their legal status but when they only use cash and drive vehicles with out of state tags for years I assume they aren't legal. only 3 i know have arms. A father who became legal and his 2 sons (one was born here and is getting his master's degree). They hunt.
The illegal ones only keep cash because banks want names, so I'm sure a few have a gun for self defense. I know of one who was killed, along with the tree owner and an acquaintance of mine, in a high profile case while being robbed by a worthless white nutjob who has since admitted to 11 murders. A concealed weapon by either could have helped that. But Again I'll keep my opinions out. Since then most tree farmers carry, all the junkies (we rank pretty high in meth production in the country as well sadly) know the farmers have cash to pay out.
My point is that of the hundreds ive interacted with, and few I know, they don't give their name or any info freely. They buy used cars off of dealers who don't ask names, they find one legal one to title all their vehicles and rent without using names. I once had to order shirts to give some away to a group through work, I only asked first name and shirt size. Nearly all were hesitant to give that. I question the accuracy of anything that says this many gave their info.

 

[cheygriz]

Just because someone overstays a visa, or crosses the border without a visa, doesn't make him the kind of "criminal" that we are normally concerned about when denying the right to a gun. If he has an actual violent record, then yes. From what I've seen personally, the vast bulk of illegal immigrants are hard workers. They don't come here to immediately apply for welfare. Think about it -- why would they unmask themselves to the authorities by applying for welfare? As a matter of fact, they pay taxes -- through withholding -- but are unable to get excess taxes returned to them because they can't file tax returns.

So I shouldn't be prosecuted if I only break non-violent laws?? If I refuse to pay taxes, isn't that non-violent? Or if I embezzle from my employer, isn't that non-violent. Sorry, dude, that dog won't hunt.

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

I worked at a Gunstore for a few years in the late 90's. Lots of illegals came in case tried to buy guns, were refused and then came back later with a relative (usually female) and then tried to buy one.

Unknown is how many got smart after we refused them for a straw purchase and went to a different gun store. We were hardly the only one in Phoenix AZ.

On a different note, I was always under the impression that by the very definition of misdemeanors that the maximum jail sentence someone could receive was one year and that they didn't lose their gun rights except for domestic violence.

A quick look on the net yielded ...



My google-fu could only finding the two year jail sentence stipulation in Massachusetts. How is that legal?

I've always suspected that many gang members have their non felon girl friend, sister, grandma etc buy their guns for them.

I do believe there are some violent misdemeanors other than domestic that land someone on the prohibited list, but can't remember the details

 

[BlueHeelerFl]

Just because someone overstays a visa, or crosses the border without a visa, doesn't make him the kind of "criminal" that we are normally concerned about when denying the right to a gun. If he has an actual violent record, then yes. From what I've seen personally, the vast bulk of illegal immigrants are hard workers. They don't come here to immediately apply for welfare. Think about it -- why would they unmask themselves to the authorities by applying for welfare? As a matter of fact, they pay taxes -- through withholding -- but are unable to get excess taxes returned to them because they can't file tax returns.

Many illegals do obtain stolen social security numbers.

I do not know if a false SSN would fool the back ground check system

 

[Riomouse911]

I worked at a Gunstore for a few years in the late 90's. Lots of illegals came in case tried to buy guns, were refused and then came back later with a relative (usually female) and then tried to buy one.

Unknown is how many got smart after we refused them for a straw purchase and went to a different gun store. We were hardly the only one in Phoenix AZ.

On a different note, I was always under the impression that by the very definition of misdemeanors that the maximum jail sentence someone could receive was one year and that they didn't lose their gun rights except for domestic violence.

A quick look on the net yielded ...



My google-fu could only finding the two year jail sentence stipulation in Massachusetts. How is that legal?

Because that’s Massachusetts State law. The civil rights part is also wrong, for (at least) in Ca you lose second amendment rights for a period of time for numerous misdemeanor crimes: DV, other crimes of violence, restraining order violations and in 2019 even for multiple DUI convictions.

Internet is great to start with. But there are 50 individual sets of statutes that apply in the respective states, so to be sure one must check their states’ laws because a general search will miss stuff.

Stay safe!

 

[crestoncowboy]

Yes. I would assume A stolen ssn will fool the system if all the othr info is correct, address But the address would have to be correct. I don't know any who ever tried, or at least said they did. Most wouldn't risk it, nor do they speak or read enough to be able to complete it without help. Sad part is that the "stolen " ssn is usually not stolen, more loaned. The person with the ssn gets to get a tax return from the money the other guy makes. Then gets to draw upon retirement. From what I have been told

 

[AlexanderA]

So I shouldn't be prosecuted if I only break non-violent laws?? If I refuse to pay taxes, isn't that non-violent? Or if I embezzle from my employer, isn't that non-violent. Sorry, dude, that dog won't hunt.

There is no rational basis for denying guns to non-violent criminals -- that is, if we want to be 2nd Amendment absolutists. (I am describing the law as it should be, not as it is.) Sure, prosecute non-violent criminals, but as part of their punishment, don't deny them basic rights such as the right to vote or the right to own guns. At least not after they get out of jail.

 

[AlexanderA]

I do not know if a false SSN would fool the back ground check system

An SSN is optional on the Form 4473. However, the purchaser has to show a government-issued photo ID that lists his current address. It seems that would be the big roadblock for illegal aliens. It's increasingly difficult to forge a convincing state driver's license. A smart alien would simply use a straw purchaser, who would be briefed to go to the gun store alone and not say things that would give himself away.

 

[Kaybee]

I support limiting gun ownership to American Citizens. The reason being, if the person is undocumented then you have no idea what their background is and what they did prior to fleeing their country.

Literally the only thing you know about the is they are willing to break American immigration laws. I don’t think that necessarily makes them dangerous people, and am willing to debate immigration in itself on its own, but my point on this specific topic of gun ownership for undocumented people is that they are not able to get the background checks like Americans citizens and therefore I don’t think it makes sense that they would have LESS restrictions than Americans.

 

[Browning]

The 2nd Amendment says that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." It doesn't limit that right to citizens, or even to those with a legal immigration status. (In 1791, anyone could come here freely. There were no border controls.) I think that conditioning the right to buy a gun on citizenship or immigration status may be unconstitutional. OK, deny the guy a gun based on verified criminality, but don't deny him just because he came here looking for a better life while crossing the border without the requisite formalities. He may in fact have a legitimate need for a gun, for self-protection, more than someone who is more established in this country.

Maybe they should establish a Constitution with a Bill of Rights in their own countries and stay in place.

 

[cheygriz]

There is no rational basis for denying guns to non-violent criminals -- that is, if we want to be 2nd Amendment absolutists. (I am describing the law as it should be, not as it is.) Sure, prosecute non-violent criminals, but as part of their punishment, don't deny them basic rights such as the right to vote or the right to own guns. At least not after they get out of jail.

On the contrary, there is a very rational basis for denying 2A and voting rights to ALL felons.

Historically, we in the western world have developed a bifurcated criminal justice system. The misdemeanor system and the felony system. It is perfectly rational to apply certain restrictions to all felons, regardless of the felony. Traditionally, that has meant losing 2A and in some states, voting, for life. I see no rational reason to change that. An embezzler is still a criminal.

The simple solution is don't commit a felony and you won't lose the rights that are traditionally denied felons.

Just one more incentive to be an honest citizen.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I have a friend who has a felony for fishing with 3 hooks instead of a single hook. He still has voting and gun buying rights.
My brother in law hauled a deer through town before he called it in. Another felony. But still have their rights
Our legal system has some foolish definitions for sure

 

[cheygriz]

I have a friend who has a felony for fishing with 3 hooks instead of a single hook. He still has voting and gun buying rights.
My brother in law hauled a deer through town before he called it in. Another felony. But still have their rights
Our legal system has some foolish definitions for sure

??????????????? Most violations of the game and fish laws are not in the criminal code.??????/

 

[Kendahl]

I support limiting gun ownership to American Citizens. The reason being, if the person is undocumented then you have no idea what their background is and what they did prior to fleeing their country.

That can safely be extended to include permanent resident aliens (green cards). They undergo a background check more stringent than NICS. The law has already gone that way for concealed carry permits starting in New Mexico after their citizenship limitation was ruled unconstitutional.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

??????????????? Most violations of the game and fish laws are not in the criminal code.??????/

I do not believe he lives in the United States. Perhaps Canada, given his clue about Christmas Tree exports.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Ashe county north carolina.
https://www.ashepostandtimes.com/ne...cle_ccdf79ae-8141-11e4-9fc0-5fa74f8f8aa3.html.
That's the first google result under ashe county christmas trees. but i,ve also read world as well. I also saw Bill Clinton when he came to town to get the white house tree so I'm not questioning it. However....
I just spent 45 minutes reading penal code for wildlife violations. class 1, 2, and 3 misdemeanors and class 6 felony for repeat offenders (neither are) are all I found. I suppose both guys, completely unrelated, could have greatly exaggerated. But my brother in laws (and my wifes) uncle who is a state trooper was there when we were told it. Idk. Both are pretty honest guys though and I take their word at face value.
The other, sadly, is no longer around to ask.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

Ashe county north carolina.
https://www.ashepostandtimes.com/ne...cle_ccdf79ae-8141-11e4-9fc0-5fa74f8f8aa3.html.

Apologies for the confusion.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I apologize for the misinformation too, if there was any about the felonies.
As far as the illegals, every one of the tree growers use them. I'm friends with 3 of the bigger growers, but have helped more of them over the years. I've spent many hours since I was a teen talking to them. There are more during harvesting, October- December. But plenty year round for planting, shearing, fertilizing, spraying, flagging, etc.

 

[crestoncowboy]

Ive never asked where these guys here come from. I know most have Georgia or SC license plates. I've been told that the price of papers ranges from hundreds to tens of thousands depending upon how thorough you want them.

Regardless I can't think of any that would have been dumb enough to fill out a federal form. Just from what I've seen, and I've been around them for years, they just don't do that. All Their Facebook pages have names like Luna or glimmersparkle. They won't even sign a check. They pay 4x their cars value or their rental property value to keep their info out of systems. No way a large percentage would try to legally(yet illegally) buy a gun and submit a form. I have to believe there is number tampering going on. Maybe some would do it but ive known a large enough sample size, to know that most won't.

 

[Enfielder]

I love a good conversation and I want to put forth this perspective.
You, me and Joe down the street, so long as they are citizens, have the right in this country to keep and bear arms (to the extent that our individual states allow). We believe these right are "God" given and that the rot to defend ourselves is unalienable.
Not everyone who crosses the border is a violent person. Most of those who do so are trying to make a better life for themselves and for their family. Sure, there is a criminal element but that percentage is minute compared to people who are fleeing the criminal element in say, Honduras or Mexico or Guatemala or anywhere there is the godforsaken war on drugs.
I know that crossing the border illegally is illegal and makes one a criminal but I am will to bet my gun collection that anyone of you would break the law to protect your family or yourself, hen it came down to it. If things are so bad that you want/need to flee your country, your damn straight gonna do what you need to do to make it safe.

This includes buying a defensive gun. I know that it's illegal, but to sit idly by and watch your wife and kids get raped and murdered isn't in the make up of any man I've ever met.
I am not supporter of breaking the law for the sake of doing it. Most of us citizens can find a job to at least provide something of a buffer to keep us from stealing and killing but illegal aliens don't have the luxury of that. You and I are probably safe in our homes. You and I are probably safe in our finances until we by too many guns. You and I may be the victims of theft and possibly a violent crime someday but it's not our everyday world for tha majority of us.
For an immigrant who had no choice but to bring their family out of a war zone to "maybe" a better place it probably is.
In typical fashion of turning words around for the sake of make an opinion look bad, I'll give you this: No. I don't think that this country should I hand out guns to people who are not citizens but in the same breath,I am not at all surprised that any one of them wantsa way to defy themselves.
I know there are areas of concentrated violent crime here in the states and my only worry at home is a fox getting after my cat, or a random burglary but that is not the norm.
The norm is that the human condition applies to everyone regardless or what government they're supposed to pay taxes to and independent on the soil on which they stand. It's the governments who decide that people belong on one side of the line. Not me or you. Remember that if you reflect on anyone.

 

[ontarget]

The 2nd Amendment says that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." It doesn't limit that right to citizens, or even to those with a legal immigration status. (In 1791, anyone could come here freely. There were no border controls.) I think that conditioning the right to buy a gun on citizenship or immigration status may be unconstitutional. OK, deny the guy a gun based on verified criminality, but don't deny him just because he came here looking for a better life while crossing the border without the requisite formalities. He may in fact have a legitimate need for a gun, for self-protection, more than someone who is more established in this country.

Doesn't coming here illegally make you a criminal thereby making you a prohibited person?

 

[CapnMac]

On the contrary, there is a very rational basis for denying 2A and voting rights to ALL felons.

It is rational, if there was still much meaning to the concept of high and low crimes (plea bargaining has mostly eroded that away).

What may be more to the point, it was not US law until 1968, only fifty of the nation's two and a half's centuries.

 

[AlexanderA]

Just to clear up an apparent misunderstanding, the number in each category in the article cited in the OP is not the number of denials, or the number of people that tried to buy guns. As I understand it, these are the numbers of people in each category that are in the FBI's NICS database, that would be denied if they tried to buy a gun. To get to the number of 7 million plus illegal aliens, you would include everyone who was caught at the border, been deported, overstayed a visa, or who otherwise came to the attention of authorities. Such people would be very stupid to try to buy a gun (at least under their own name), because that would multiply their chances of being caught and deported.

The Washington Examiner is being sensationalist with its headline. The article itself says that only some 3,300 of the 7 million plus illegal aliens were actually denied buying a gun. That's a very small percentage. I suspect that the real number is even smaller than that.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I'm still keeping my opinion quiet on the illegals. If 60 year old men get people to buy their beer, and yes they do that here, to keep from showing an id how many would give their license to a gun dealer to do a federal check.
I will say that I was on my own way before I could legally buy a handgun. I bought one anyway. But I dang sure didn't try to do it legally.
I also don't wear a seat belt in my vehicles that actually do have them. I even sped once, a bunch of times lol. So maybe I'm a terrible awful criminal too?
On one hand they break the law daily, every time they get paid without withholding, they drive with a fake license. Ive seen gang tattoos on faces and necks too. I see the news stories about what the few bad ones do. And ive seen them get in trouble with one name and come back months later as another one.

What about the other amendments. How are they applied to illegals? Can you search them without a warrant? Do they have free speech, freedom of religion, But idk, I'm contributing to bringing the thread off topic at this point. I live in the middle of it daily. But I'm done on this one
So to the topic? I think it's bs. Padded numbers to push public opinion. Left, Right, doesn't matter. I don't trust this one any more than "dimples or chads" or "fast and furious" or "I did not have sex with that woman". And I'm about as far from a conspiracy theorist as they come. But if it quacks like a duck.....

 

[AlexanderA]

Doesn't coming here illegally make you a criminal thereby making you a prohibited person?

Assuming that illegal entry is a felony.

But illegal entry is a disqualifying condition on its own, quite apart from the felony disqualification.