Recovered Bullet from Buck, Thoughts?

[Big Bad Bob]

So I killed a 8 point buck saturday. Shot him mid shoulder at 120-125 yards with a .30 208 grain AMAX out of 300 WSM. Yes, thats alot of gun for whitetail, but every deer I have shot go 2 feet, straight down, all boiler maker profile or center chest shots, so meat loss has been minimal.

Heres the thing, of the 9 deer I have shot with this rifle and different bullet weights, none of the bullets exit. 180 soft points, 168 BTHP, 208 AMAX (second deer killed with this bullet) Internally its pretty graphic, the chest cavity looks like a small bomb went off, all major vitals are mush.

Im not complaining I just find interesting. Ive killed deer with .243's, .270's, .308's, 30-06, 44 magnum and those bullets went clean through the vital zones.

I recovered this bullet just under the hide on the opposite side.

 

[buck460XVR]

What you recovered was part of the jacket, the core is missing. Anytime a bullet fragments in an animal to that degree, I consider it a bullet failure, even tho it killed the animal. I want a hunting bullet to retain the majority of it's weight throughout the wound channel, whether it exits or not.

 

[ldlfh7]

I would say it worked fine it you have a dead whitetail.
What else can you ask for?

 

[witchhunter]

A 300 magnum bullet that won't penetrate through a whitetail? That is why Hornady does not recommend them for hunting. That type of performance is typical of varmint style bullets on big game. Luckily you didn't hit a shoulder bone.

 

[Big Bad Bob]

Yea those were my thoughts, I know the AMAX is not a hunting bullet, I have some long shot stands figured the high B.C. would be good for long range but Im gonna switch to Sierra Gamekings, I have a box of 165's Ill roll some of those and see if I get any different results.

 

[Big Bad Bob]

I hear yea, I just find it interesting.

 

[25cschaefer]

Nosler Ballistic tips do the same thing, my family has killed many speed goats, deer, and elk with them. Never wounding an animal with a solid hit. Even hitting major bones, they still penetrate and kill them just as dead as any other bullet. On the occasions they do not over penetrate, we find empty jackets or just a spot of lead in them. When they fully exit, there are normally 2-5 exit holes, this happens a lot on antelope. On one mature cow elk at 200yds, a 180gr going about 2800fps (muzzle) out of the antiquated 30-06 hit the humerus square, blew it into a million pieces, went through both lungs while breaking up and the core left the body through the other scapula, the jacket was in the skin near the brisket on the other side. Every vital organ had damage and she dropped like a sack of potatoes.

While not "ideal," to a paid magazine column writer touting the newest whizbang lead rock, the bullets still make dinner and dinner is good, therefore they, and their fragmenting jackets, are good.

 

[Captcurt]

I shoot a 300WSM too and have found that you need to stick with a bonded bullet , partition or a monolithic bullet like the Barnes. I really like the Nosler Accubond, but I have a friend who swears by the Barnes TSX. We both kill deer.

 

[courtgreene]

I like Nosler BT's out of my 300WSM. It does the job well. Yes it fragments, but that's what it's designed to do. I used them because of the accuracy with those bullets out of my gun. I KEEP using them because they work. Two hogs (not me, that was a loaner) and several deer dropped. One deer did run a while, but he was found as dead as the rest of them.
I'm rather surprised at my own statement, actually. I am usually in the "don't shoot match bullets at game animals" camp. But seeing as the bullet you're using is about the same thing as the Nosler BT, I can't in good faith say that this time.
Oh, and one final thing. I killed a deer with a gameking (.223rem) and its jacket and core separated. It still worked. I'm only saying this because you mentioned switching to the game kings. Going fast enough (for weight and diameter) it can still come apart. You may end up with the same results, but if those same results still give you a dead deer, then who cares?

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

That is why Hornady does not recommend them for hunting.

What the legal departent suggests and what works are often very different animals.

Usually when a bullet sheds it's jacket like that it's because it was still clipping along too fast when it hit it's target. For 100yd shooting with a .300 Win Mag, that's probably the issue.

 

[eastbank]

these bullets were all that were recovered out of 11 animals i shot in africa this year.#1 water buck 300 win, # 2 kudu 300 win,#3 zebra 375H&H. no animals were lost. rifles were two CZ-550,s and a howa. eastbank.

 

[Big Bad Bob]

Thanks for the replies so far,

No doubt the deer was DRT, im not complaining, its one of the reasons I shoot this particular rifle. The rifle is accurate and I have never had a deer move more than 2 feet that was hit with this rifle. I find it interesting that the bullet separated, this is the first one I have recovered, most the time they are all just fragments.

 

[gspn]

Nosler Ballistic tips do the same thing, my family has killed many speed goats, deer, and elk with them. Never wounding an animal with a solid hit. Even hitting major bones, they still penetrate and kill them just as dead as any other bullet.

My experience is the same as 25cshaefer. I've shot lots of deer with ballistic tips or various equivalents through my 7mm mag. Almost all of them deliver the result you experienced with fragmenting and turning the lungs into a blast zone.

Every one looked like the lungs had been run through a blender. Very few exits wound's and of the 9 or 10 bullets I recovered I think they averaged around 30% weight retention.

They kill deer very well, they just do it differently than other bullets. Some bullets pass through, others blow up inside. I've used both types, and both lead to dead deer.

I don't know anything about the A-Max, but your damage report is roughly the same as other bullets I've used. I just put one of those deer in the jerky brine a few minutes ago!

 

[Arkansas Paul]

The faster a bullet is traveling, the more violently it expands thus a greater chance of the bullet not exiting.

Because of this, the same bullet out of a .308 Win may very well penetrate deeper than out of a .300 mag.
Sounds silly to many people who don't understand bullet construction and it's relationship to velocity, but it is true.
(I'm not saying you don't understand this, just that when I've explained it to newbies, they look at me like I'm crazy).

 

[Grumulkin]

The faster a bullet is traveling, the more violently it expands thus a greater chance of the bullet not exiting.

Because of this, the same bullet out of a .308 Win may very well penetrate deeper than out of a .300 mag.
Sounds silly to many people who don't understand bullet construction and it's relationship to velocity, but it is true.
(I'm not saying you don't understand this, just that when I've explained it to newbies, they look at me like I'm crazy).

I believe you.

I have some Argentine military surplus 150 gr. 308 Winchester ammunition with which I've taken 3 deer. Every one was taken with a lung shot, every one was DRT and on none did the bullet exit.

As long as it kills promptly, I'll take an alleged "varmint" bullet any day.

 

[Patocazador]

What you recovered was part of the jacket, the core is missing. Anytime a bullet fragments in an animal to that degree, I consider it a bullet failure, even tho it killed the animal. I want a hunting bullet to retain the majority of it's weight throughout the wound channel, whether it exits or not.

I totally agree with this comment. If you have the money use Nosler Partitions.

 

[Bezoar]

Well if you make the bullet tough enough to blow through you either have to get fmj, or make the bullet so tough you have to get a 300 win mag to get expansion at that velocity. realistically.

most bullets arent intended for high velocity impact. if you payed attention and did some research, that bullet would probably do far better in a 30-30 or 30-40 krag load.

 

[Art Eatman]

Aw, now, would a "better" bullet have made the critters drop faster? Reduced their travel distance from two feet to one foot?

"When your work speaks for itself, don't interrupt."

 

[d2wing]

As Arkansas Paul said the faster bullet will penetrate less and do more damage. As bullet speed increases they reach a point when the flesh cannot be displaced fast enough and resistance causes a shock wave to buildup blowing up the flesh. The slow fat crowd doesn't understand it but it is well known. Expanding bullets that retain weight are also best. Fragmentation is not desirable, controlled expansion is. But if the bullet is big enough and penetrates to the vitals it works. Interesting post.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

As long as it kills promptly, I'll take an alleged "varmint" bullet any day.

Better not hit bone with it. You won't like the results.

Well if you make the bullet tough enough to blow through you either have to get fmj, or make the bullet so tough you have to get a 300 win mag to get expansion at that velocity. realistically.

That's what I like about the Nosler Partition.
It is made to expand quickly and the front part of the bullet separates from the core often, especially at high velocity. But the rear partition remains intact, maintaining 50-60% of it's original weight to keep driving forward. Exit wounds on large animals like elk and moose are common with it, even after travelling through all that tissue.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

The sectional density of the 208 AMAX will provide enough penetration on deer, even at 300 mag velocities.

Sure the core and jacket might separate, but you still have a lot of weight in each.

Some years back, I shot a few deer with the 110 VMAX at 3400+ fps. They all died and were recovered, but they ran further than I like, and in some cases, the bullet failed to reach the far side of the chest cavity.

 

[No4Mk1*]

A heavy and fast amax is a consideration for long range hunting of small-medium game. Since i am not able to hunt deer sized game at 800 yards i choose something different. I don't need the heavy weight and velocity for 0-300yard (0-150 most of the time) hunting, i slow it down to a .308Win. I do not want bullet fragments in my meat and i need an exit wound for a blood trail, therefore i load a 150gr GMX to 2700-2800fps.

Nothing "wrong" with your choice, as long as you know it's limitations on large game.

 

[41 Mag]

When the A-Max first came out I picked some 140gr ones up to try out in my daughters 6.5x55. I found a nice shooting load plodding along at around 2600fps. Knowing this was mainly built as a target bullet as explained several time to me by the fellow from Hornady, I put them to task on the feral hog population at my friends property.

I shot them from almost point blank range out to close to 400yds, and in most cases they dropped them in their tracks, and penetrated all the way through leaving about a golf ball sized exit. After cleanly taking close to 50 hogs I turned her loose on the whitetails with them. To date she has shot half a dozen with it and none took more than a couple of steps.

I can verify that with the velocity being down they DO indeed penetrate and they do act more like a traditional BT type bullet. That said, using the same type in my 7mm RM had a different result all together, where they reacted more like a grenade after about 2" of penetration. I never shot a deer with one, but the half dozen hogs I shot were a mess to clean up. They were all DRT shots, no two ways about it, but similar to a Berger, they did more damage than I really cared to trim up.

 

[CraigC]

I don't consider a dead critter to be the only measure of success. IMHO, if the bullet fails, the bullet fails and nothing else matters. I've had bullets fail that still resulted in a dead critter and it doesn't feel any better. I don't care for ANY bullet or load that requires a perfect broadside shot and strict avoidance of any bones. If I can't hit the shoulder and have the bullet exit, I find something that does. I'd rather give up a little expansion and maybe have a little tracking to do than hunt big game with a varmint bullet......or one that behaves like one. To me, that is hunting with an inferior bullet for the sake of convenience.

 

[buck460XVR]

I don't consider a dead critter to be the only measure of success.

My thoughts exactly and as I said in my first post, any bullet that fragments that drastically on big game is a fail. While I realize there's a new school of thought that thinks explosive expansion is as effective as controlled expansion and a exit wound, that theory only works within a much narrower parameter than a bullet truly intended for big game. I've dropped several deer in their tracks with poorly placed shots outta both guns and bows thanks to a lotta luck, over the half a century I've been hunting them. Never considered that anything but a failure on my part even tho it could be considered by others as a successful hunt.