Red Dots-Who Wears Them On Their EDC Pistols?

[Smaug]

Ken Hackathorn did a fair take on it here:

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[herrwalther]

Ken Hackathorn did a fair take on it here:

I agree with him that new shooters pick it up faster. Because I have seen that in my own student/teacher time as an instructor. It is one of the main reasons why the US Army adopted red dots on service rifles. It was easier for new shooters to learn and easier to break bad habits from long time hunters. He is definitely right on shoot what is better for you. I wish I had the money to have try it pistols for students in optic and non optic. Maybe a G19 MOS with optic and G19 MOS without. So I could see up close with a student what they were more accurate, faster, and better shooting with as little variation as possible. Right now the guns my students have bought or I let them use of mine are too different to make a fair scientific comparison. It isn't really fair when they pickup my G19 clone with a Holosun and then switch to the 1911, Beretta, compact Taurus, or Hi Point they bought on their own. There are too many differences between the guns and that puts new shooters at a disadvantage in finding what works best for them.

He brings up a few interesting trend comparisons I hadn't given much thought to. 40SW, Pachmyr grips, and lasers. I have had all those at some point. I don't really use them anymore. Pachmyr grips essentially got replaced by buying better fitting handguns (for myself) and Talon grip type tapes that are much thinner. Lasers (as mentioned in another thread) are being replaced by handgun optics. But what I like about optics capable firearms is you get to pick. My Dagger or Walther Q4, or the Glock MOS or a dozen other systems take about 5 minutes with an Allen or Torx wrench to put on or take off an optic. So if they do fall out of favor for whatever reason, the physical switch back is easy. In my opinion, switching from an optic to non optic on the same firearm will be an easier physical transition than 40S&W to 9mm or vice versa. I have my own reasons for keeping 40SW guns and ammo on hand so it isn't so much a societal trend for me. If a new shooter/student asks I will direct them toward 9mm most of the time and explain in as much depth as they want, why. Everything boils down to what a shooter does best and how they plan on using the firearm. As he says it the top 1% of shooters and the rest. I treat a long time, regular shooter much different than someone who runs a magazine through their firearm once in 5 years just to make sure it still works.

 

[UncleEd]

Hackathorn also points out the negatives
of the red dots for daily carry and defensive
handgun uses.

He certainly was critical of the holsters
police may be using to accommodate the
red dots to keep the devices clean.

None of the pistols he showed is what
he actually carries for self defense.
His actual self defense handgun has
regular fixed sights. Period.

In numerous videos he and Bill Wilson
have stressed the difference between
life's probabilities and possibilities when
it comes to self defense.

 

[JR24]

Hackathorn also points out the negatives
of the red dots for daily carry and defensive
handgun uses.

Apparently I’m on crack, because I absolutely find an advantage in the 1-10 yard range with a dot over iron sights, namely it’s much easier to get good hits, fast, with both eyes open and target focused. Specifically on something like a FAST drill, getting those two first small headshots is quicker for me with the dot. Mag dump post reload? Not so much when I have an 8” target.

Same with drills inside 10 yards transitioning targets, if I’m actually wanting to aim and not instinctive shooting, it helps every time.

Speaking of instinctive or point shooting, that still helps me anyway since if my gun is on target, the glowing dot is too. Just because I don’t have to use it, doesn’t mean it’s not useful in a way to be aware that my gun is on target non the less.

Honestly, his comments there leads me to believe he really hasn’t worked that much with dots in his drill work, and that’s fine. He’s been pretty set in his ways for, what, 50 years now?

I will say that 10-15 yard slow fire I do get smaller groups with irons, possibly just because of the guns I have dots on and those I don’t, and also probably because I prefer the big circle dot of the Holosun (because it’s easier to see and faster for me) which does clutter up the view and makes precision at distance a little more challenging. So dots aren’t a precision choice for me, it’s just like the XS Big dots or similar in philosophy.

 

[JEBruns]

I’ve been migrating to red dot sights on some of my handguns. The new S&W 2.0 10MM wears a Holosun 507 but I did have this happen last range session. Used a drill and easy out to get the Holosun factory broken screw out and replaced both with a McMaster Carr torqs stronger mount screws.
View attachment 1109686

Looks like red loctite was used. You need to heat that up before removing the screws.

 

[Lennyjoe]

Looks like red loctite was used. You need to heat that up before removing the screws.

It wasn’t actually loctite but some type of factory rubberized thread locker but not the permanent red locktite we all know. I only use blue locktite on my fasteners.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

It wasn’t actually loctite but some type of factory rubberized thread locker but not the permanent red locktite we all know. I only use blue locktite on my fasteners.

So what gun was it that this was mounted too, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Lennyjoe]

So what gun was it that this was mounted too, if you don't mind me asking?

S&W M&P 2.0 10MM. Made the mistake of using the factory screws…

 

[Tcruse]

I just went through this analysis and concluded that red dots offer little or no advantage when engaging targets inside 10 yards. Hence the only gun I've equipped with a red dot is my Glock 10mm which is my hiking companion.

Well, if you are shooting at a target that represents a full frontal adult at 10 yards you are most likely correct. However, if you need to accomplish a head shot against a target that has an innocent covering part of your target zone, yes it makes the difference between the innocent being dead or not.
My take is that it allows making the first shot more accurately and much faster than iron sights. Now, some people still claim that revolvers are better than semi-automatic handguns, so red dots may need to wait for the next generation shooters.

 

[Capybara]

I am adding my new Ruger Max 9 to my CCW renewal. I am going to try practicing and carrying it with a green dot sight. Have never carried a pistol with a red or green dot but I hear a lot of hype and excitement about doing so so I figured why not try it? I do agree that it could be another snag point though so we shall see. I was skeptical about carrying with one, but in practicing lately, my older eyes are not as good as they were even a few years ago so I need all of the advantage I can get. That's the cool thing about the Max 9, I can try it and if I don't like CCWing with one, just remove it and put the cover plate back on.

 

[SwampWolf]

You quoted something I said and then wrote this (above) statement as if you were responding to me. I didn't say this, 12Bravo20 did. But he's not incorrect, if you look deeper. "With iron sights, one [DOES] ha[ve] to focus [his eye] on the front sight AND focus [his attention] the target."

As clearly indicated in my post, I was disagreeing with member 12Bravo20's statement "With iron sights, one has to focus on the front sight AND the target". I am not arguing the merits of which sighting arrangement is best for use in self-defense; I'm only referencing the long accepted basic sighting regimen recommended for shooting iron sights correctly as explained in the NRA publication, The Basics of Pistol Shooting:

"...Proper sight alignment is the key to accurate shooting. Any misalignment of the front sight with the rear sight introduces an angular error that is multiplied with distance.
"To fire an accurate shot, it is essential to concentrate on the front sight. The eye is capable of focusing clearly on only one object at a time. It cannot keep the rear sight, the front sight and the target in focus at the same time. When the eye is focused properly, the front sight should appear sharp and clear, the rear sight should appear a little less sharp and the target should look blurred."

This is the method I was taught in my military firearm basic training back in 1962, all through my thirty year le career and doubtless the same way my dad was schooled in the Army where he served during WWII. I sincerely doubt much has changed in terms of how to shoot with iron sights accurately in the interim from then until now.

 

[starling]

Hackathorn nails it IMO. Backed up his views on Red Dots quite well I thought. Couple things I will add though... Pachmayrs are still good grips. 40S&W is still as good today as it was back in the 90s. Lasers are still excellent as well. Trends dont really matter when all is said and done. Whats works is what works.

As for the obsession people have with this Future of this or that... its kind of silly. That can mean anything. Future could be rayguns and thought controlled triggers. None of that matters if you are at the store tomorrow and find yourself in the middle of a catastrophe. Predicting the future is for marketing and manufacturering to increase or sustain market share. How that enters into a concern for the CCW holder is beyond me. When someone says a slogan like "red dots are the future" they are repeating a sales pitch gimmick (unknowingly most of the time) and useing it as a subconsious way to boost their own ego to reinforce a decision they have made. Lots of people fall for that type of stuff. Companies create think tanks based around creating these type of tricks.

Ken mentions keeping things simple... absolutely correct there. If you dont need it... leave it. Especially on a CCW IMO. I call it "Practical Tactical" but in essence its just ...best not to overthink things like gear.

Ive heard all the arguements for having a red dot on a CCW DEFFENSIVE pistol through the years but not one has convinced me yet for my own use (My eyes are still good enough). Fun gadgets for the range though. Will this trend last...sure... People will use Red Dots for many years to come but as time goes on it will fade and the next big Marketing push will happen. Almost all "Trends" end once the money has been collected and the Market has been saturated. Then a new product and Marketing strategy is enacted. Such is the way of Sales.

Best thing Aimpoint or Trijicon could do right now (if they have not already) is pay Keannu Reeves to put a red dot on his pistol for the next John Wick Film and do some training photo ops useing the product. Its an old trick but people always fall for it.

 

[JN01]

When someone says a slogan like "red dots are the future" they are repeating a sales pitch gimmick (unknowingly most of the time) and useing it as a subconsious way to boost their own ego to reinforce a decision they have made. Lots of people fall for that type of stuff.

Some people do like to have every new gadget and get the idea in their head that they won't survive without it.

Claiming that red dots on defensive pistols is a fad that will soon go away is no more valid than saying they are the future, both are wild guesses. Only time will tell.

A century ago, most LE agencies saw auto pistols as an unreliable gimmick not suited for duty carry.

Speaking for myself, choosing a green dot had nothing to do with ego or wanting to be a "cool kid". I see them simply as another tool that is advantageous for me, even if they are not so for others.

 

[JR24]

Best thing Aimpoint or Trijicon could do right now (if they have not already) is pay Keannu Reeves to put a red dot on his pistol for the next John Wick Film and do some training photo ops useing the product. Its an old trick but people always fall for it.

Truth, they had one pistol with optic in one scene in #3 but not much.

Speaking for myself, choosing a green dot had nothing to do with ego or wanting to be a "cool kid". I see them simply as another tool that are advantageous for me, even if they are not so for others.

Agreed. For me it was simple, green dot with circle (Holosun) is just easier to see for me than any front sights. Trijicon HD yellow is next best, but it’s still second for my poor and colorblind eyesight.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

When they're saying that the future is now or that red dots are the future, what I hear is someone trying to be both edgy and relevant to the conversation. I tune out people trying to mock and belittling others using peer pressure that way.

 

[starling]

I understand all the pros and cons. All that really matters to me is the individual product. When everyone gets up to the point that they are all making enclosed systems (like the Aimpoint) and the prices are more reasonable then I will put a couple on range pistols for fun. I have tried a few of the open systems and they were fine but just too "wide Open" for my taste. I cant bring myself to spend how much those new Aimpoints are going for. The mounts and screws sheering are still a concern for me as well.

I dont think they will go away though. The "fad" part will but reflex optics are not going anywhere anytime soon. Coming close to 80 years now so they will stay around. Fads tend to come in waves and we are in one again now with the red dots among other things. Ken is no spring chicken so he has seen lots of fads/waves come, go, come back, go again etc. etc.

Staring into my crystal ball I am pretty confident the "future" will be more fads/waves pulled from the past and repackaged as the next "Big" thing.

I can say that there is no way I am changing anything on my Frame mounted Ultradot tube equiped pistols. Those puppies are dialed in with around 20 years on them and have never failed. They may look spacey and sci-fi but they have proven themselves.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

I understand all the pros and cons. All that really matters to me is the individual product. When everyone gets up to the point that they are all making enclosed systems (like the Aimpoint) and the prices are more reasonable then I will put a couple on range pistols for fun. I have tried a few of the open systems and they were fine but just too "wide Open" for my taste. I cant bring myself to spend how much those new Aimpoints are going for. The mounts and screws sheering are still a concern for me as well.

I dont think they will go away though. The "fad" part will but reflex optics are not going anywhere anytime soon. Coming close to 80 years now so they will stay around. Fads tend to come in waves and we are in one again now with the red dots among other things. Ken is no spring chicken so he has seen lots of fads/waves come, go, come back, go again etc. etc.

Staring into my crystal ball I am pretty confident the "future" will be more fads/waves pulled from the past and repackaged as the next "Big" thing.

I can say that there is no way I am changing anything on my Frame mounted Ultradot tube equiped pistols. Those puppies are dialed in with around 20 years on them and have never failed. They may look spacey and sci-fi but they have proven themselves.

Huh? I never called them a fad or said that they would go away. I was calling out the cult of the hip crowd's stupidity and doing to them as they do to everyone else that hasn't been "converted" in their eyes. I'm a firm believer of live and let live so MYOB and let others like what they don't or do like without trying to act as if we all have a voted say in this matter. The prices will never become Chinesium prices if that's what you were hoping for. Forward Controls Design has a mount that doesn't shear sheer any screw.

 

[starling]

Huh? I never called them a fad or said that they would go away. I was calling out the cult of the hip crowd's stupidity and doing to them as they do to everyone else that hasn't been "converted" in their eyes. I'm a firm believer of live and let live so MYOB and let others like what they don't or do like without trying to act as if we all have a voted say in this matter. The prices will never become Chinesium prices if that's what you were hoping for. Forward Controls Design has a mount that doesn't shear sheer any screw.

No worries there. I wasnt directing that at you if it came off that way. Ill go back and fix it

 

[The_Quartermaster]

No worries there. I wasnt directing that at you if it came off that way. Ill go back and fix it

No need, we're fine friend.

 

[Old Dog]

Nope, don't wear 'em on my EDC handguns. Nothing new to add to this thread (except increasing my post count).

And yeah, Ken Hackathorn's experience mirrors my own. I've been privileged to T&E a few of the latest RDS systems for pistols (prior to my recent retirement). I currently own a couple SIG pistols with Romeo sights. While I've had great results at the 25 yard line and beyond with a red dot (almost like cheating, some of my officers used to say) - when I'm not shooting under time constraints, but, having been shooting with irons exclusively for more than 40 years, it's difficult to adapt. As Ken noted, if you're just coming into the game and learning on the RDS, you should do well.

For us dinosaurs and Luddites, we'll stick to our flip phones, internal combustion engine powered cars, leather holsters and iron sights.

 

[UncleEd]

Do red dots have something akin to
windshield wipers that can be turned on
as the lenses are gunked with fog,
dirt and lint? And do they have
tinted glass to cut down on incoming
glare from sun or foes' lights?

 

[The_Quartermaster]

Look up occluded eye aiming. The Son Tay Raiders used that on their carbines and killed a heck of a lot of NVA and their Russian and PLA advisors while trying to rescue American POW's at no loss to our own side.

 

[12Bravo20]

Look up occluded eye aiming. The Son Tay Raiders used that on their carbines and killed a heck of a lot of NVA and their Russian and PLA advisors while trying to rescue American POW's at no loss to our own side.

And they used the Singlepoint OEG scope by the Normark Corporation at that time. It was a bit ahead of it's time but proved the effectiveness of dot sights.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

We're kind of in that awkward transition phase right now. Virtually everyone that's trained extensively with them understands they're superior in speed and ease of use compared to irons but there's still denial and foot dragging. It's the same cycle we see with every new product: Amusement at the novelty > growing education and training > broad acceptance > consensus that you're wasting your time if you don't embrace it. Magnified scopes for rifles were ridiculed for a while but now you have to specifically order sights on a bolt gun in most cases. Dots on fighting carbines are so well proven that it's weird to see any credible expert not recommending them. As I see it the main issues have been getting pistol RDS down to where they're small enough, ruggedizing them so they're reliable enough and getting the prices down to where most people can afford one. And while some companies have jumped on making optics cuts standard other companies are seriously lagging behind. That's understandable as it makes no sense for a gunmaker to spend money on something that doesn't help sell more guns, and there's kind of a situation where they had to wait to see what the footprint will be. I do wish there was something akin to 1913 rails or USB-C, a standard that most makers adhere to. Right now there are a few but it's kind of the wild west where new RDS models will still sometimes eschew previous footprints in favor of a proprietary one. If you want a Glock or a Sig you have plenty of options. As an HK guy it bums me out that so far if you want a factory optic-ready gun they only offer the VP9.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

We're kind of in that awkward transition phase right now. Virtually everyone that's trained extensively with them understands they're superior in speed and ease of use compared to irons but there's still denial and foot dragging. It's the same cycle we see with every new product: Amusement at the novelty > growing education and training > broad acceptance > consensus that you're wasting your time if you don't embrace it. Magnified scopes for rifles were ridiculed for a while but now you have to specifically order sights on a bolt gun in most cases. Dots on fighting carbines are so well proven that it's weird to see any credible expert not recommending them. As I see it the main issues have been getting pistol RDS down to where they're small enough, ruggedizing them so they're reliable enough and getting the prices down to where most people can afford one. And while some companies have jumped on making optics cuts standard other companies are seriously lagging behind. That's understandable as it makes no sense for a gunmaker to spend money on something that doesn't help sell more guns, and there's kind of a situation where they had to wait to see what the footprint will be. I do wish there was something akin to 1913 rails or USB-C, a standard that most makers adhere to. Right now there are a few but it's kind of the wild west where new RDS models will still sometimes eschew previous footprints in favor of a proprietary one. If you want a Glock or a Sig you have plenty of options. As an HK guy it bums me out that so far if you want a factory optic-ready gun they only offer the VP9.

People are either going to like what they like or not. It's not up to us to force red dots on handguns upon them. Yes it's easy to use but speed of use, just the same as they would for irons too. Anyway, if they decide it's for them, cool. If they never do decide that, also cool. We as a community need to stop trying to use peer pressure upon ourselves, and start accepting them if they don't or do on any subject that we all seem to want to eat our own with and quite frankly it's gross that we even do that at all.

I like red dots on my handguns and rifles. But seeing or in this case hearing that there folks who don't feel the same is a nothing burger to be blunt honest here.