Reflex vs. Laser

[Certaindeaf]

^
On one, it's affixed to the "bolt" and on the other, it's not? Having the bolt be able to move is kinda critical most times.

 

[Skribs]

On one, it's affixed to the "bolt" and on the other, it's not? Having the bolt be able to move is kinda critical most times.

How does the RDS affect the bolt moving? I understand the weight issue, but I've also never heard people talk about how a lightweight reflex sight caused their pistol to FTE.

 

[JN01]

Works for me. For me the main draw back is the cost of the sight. If Trijicon starts getting some competition that is as heavy duty as their RMR, then perhaps the prices would go down.

Big advantages to me:

My eyes aren't what they used to be. I have trouble focusing on irons, particularly with speed. With the red dot, you keep focus on the target, looking through the dot.

Iron sights are somewhat dependent upon sight radius for accuracy (i.e. most people shoot better with longer barrels). With a red dot, there is no sight radius, so barrel length is only relevant as far as bullet velocity.

Dots are very visible in most lighting conditions, though if you aim at a bright light, the dot will wash out.

The RMRs are extremely reliable, but in the event it should fail, back up irons are easy to transition to. Other red dots are not as sturdy. I have Burris Fast Fires that I use on a Ruger Mk III and a AA .22 conversion for my Glock. They work decent, but I would not rely on them on a self-defense weapon.

My RMR equipped G26 is no more difficult for me to carry concealed than the standard version. I carry either in the same position (IWB-appendix)

Would money spent on a red dot be better spent on ammo and/or training? Well, maybe, but you could say the same thing about money spent on that second (or 25th) handgun.

Do you NEED a red dot? Again, maybe not, but if you can afford it, why not? In my personal experience, I can shoot better with one than without one. I want every advantage I can get if I am forced to defend myself.

 

[Greg528iT]

JN01.. NICE!.. DO you have a shot of it in a carry holster? That would be my only concern on a carry piece, but from you picture, not much of one.

 

[GLOOB]

All the talk about using a laser and "trying to find the dot". If you point your gun at your target like you normally would with iron sights, the "dot" will fall on the target. There is no "chasing the dot". Just because you have a laser on your gun doesn't mean you've forgotten how to shoot.

So if the dot always falls on the target when you point normally, then why do you even need it? Maybe the laser should be invisible, so the other guy can't see it. You will know it's there, cuz you pointed the gun like you normally would have.

Ok, I know. The laser is for low light where you can't see your sights. A reflex does that... too. In addition to working in almost all other conditions.

 

[basicblur]

So if the dot always falls on the target when you point normally, then why do you even need it? Maybe the laser should be invisible, so the other guy can't see it. You will know it's there, cuz you pointed the gun like you normally would have.

Sounds like a pretty good description of point shooting to me.

All the talk about using a laser and "trying to find the dot".

Is it just me, or when folks talk about having to chase a laser, does anyone else see images of those cat videos where they're chasing the dot?

Now ya gotta admit...maybe you'll never acquire the BG as a target (I'm too busy chasing this damn dot!), but you will probably freak him out so badly that he'll be moonwalking away...

 

[Certaindeaf]

How does the RDS affect the bolt moving?.

The way I see it, if the sight gets hung up on anything when it's commonly on the pistol, the pistol won't function. When it's on a rifle, it will.

 

[Skribs]

I guess. But I don't see a RDS as small as the RMR to get stuck on much that the slide wouldn't otherwise get stuck on.

 

[JN01]

JN01.. NICE!.. DO you have a shot of it in a carry holster? That would be my only concern on a carry piece, but from you picture, not much of one.

I don't have any shots of mine in the holster, but here are a few: http://www.onesourcetactical.com/archangelappendixcarryaiwbappendixinsidethewaistband-1.aspx

If you order directly from the maker, Dale Fricke (http://www.dalefrickeholsters.com/products.htm) he will make any modifications that you want, super nice guy with an excellent product.

 

[Greg528iT]

I was hesitant about adding the weight to the slide. I can verify, that a Burris Fast fire does NOT affect the slide action.

 

[Certaindeaf]

How does the RDS affect the bolt moving?.

Uh, it doesn't. But if something in this great wide world we live in were to obstruct its travel.. nevermind

 

[Rexster]

Based upon my experience with an Aimpoint Micro T-1 on a carbine, I would like to try one, or another quality red-dot sight, on a handgun. As I approached the half-century mark, my previously excellent eyesight went downhill, but with the T-1, I don't need my eyeglasses to get a good sight picture, at least at this point in time. Obviously, an Aimpoint Micro is a bit large for a holster-carried handgun, but quite feasible for a "bag" gun, or one pre-positioned for home defense. Some folks are carrying Glocks and such with Trijicon RMS sights.

Lasers, well, I am not so sure. I work for a PD that prohibits lasers on any weapon we might use for defense of ourselves or others, and this applies 24/7/365, so I have no experience with lasers.

 

[Comedian]

Sounds like a pretty good description of point shooting to me.

Yeah, so what's the point of a laser if all it's doing is providing unnecessary feedback on the target (since whenever you point a pistol it's already on target and requires no adjustment)?

It’s not so much a question of time, but of position,

What positions are easier to shoot from with a laser sight?

possible injuries (can you even raise your gun for a ‘proper’ sight picture)

There's an injury where I can't raise my gun but still have enough muscle control to accurately aim a laser sight?

If you’re behind the sofa, how ya gonna check out the view – look over the top of the sofa, or peer around it closer to the floor (I know which option I’d choose). If I’m trying to present as small a target as possible, am I going to be able to use a red dot in that position?

How does this change with a laser sight? You still have to break cover in order acquire and engage a target. Having a laser sight doesn't suddenly allow you to aim around corners without presenting some kind of target to what you're engaging. I'm not seeing how it allows you to present a lower profile target, seeing as you still have to expose your shooting arm and part of your face.

‘Spose your home invader has struck the first blow – mebbe your arm is injured to the point you can’t raise it?

You're in melee with somebody and you can use a laser sight?

I’m sure you’ve heard the quote I did not see that coming…you can continue to train for the perfect world scenario, but chances are, when it happens, it will be like nothing you envisioned (then you too can say I did not see that coming!).

What are you talking about? You're the only person here who's listing extremely specific scenarios in which a laser might be more worthwhile than a red dot.

Ya'll can carry on the theoretical arguments and perfect world scenarios...I'm still trying to wrap my head around a Reflex sight on a SHIELD...

Again, it's not theoretical, it's a fact, and you've provided nothing other baseless claims to suggest otherwise.

 

[One_Jackal]

Lasers and red dots are great at the range. How do they help you in a real self defense situation? A lot of older LEO won't carry a semi - auto. Why? They are to light to use as a billy club. In a tussle situation the slide might get caught in their clothing. A local state trooper carries a 1950 something S&W model 10. Why? In over 30 years of service he has clubbed a lot of rowdies but he has never shot anyone.

 

[Skribs]

One Jackal, that's why you use Paul Gomez' high thumb technique. It's the second part of this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5sK8TE1nq4&feature=g-all-u

Comedian, some of the things that you mentioned were brought up regarding reflex sights, not lasers. But since there's very little change in how you hold the gun between a reflex and a laser, I agree there's not much to those points.

You can use a laser if you can't get a good sight picture. An injury which prevents you from raising your arm might not prevent you from pointing with your lower arm, and a laser is the only option of the three (fixed, laser, reflex) that will work in that situation.

 

[basicblur]

If you see a laser on you, you are probably going to squirm and dodge, so IMHO I think a laser sight can detract from your hit rate on a threat.

Maybe, maybe not?
He seems to do pretty well with the target and shooter both moving (@ the 2:10 mark).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LBmZ92e9QoM#!


When I took my CHP course, the instructor brought in a former LEO for part of the course - one of his demos was working your way through your home - not recommended, but may be necessary should you need to get to family members or escape. He taught that as you travel through your house, you should advance with your left arm up, acting as a shield, and your weapon close to your body for retention. If you are surprised/struck, hopefully they'll get the left arm, allowing you to retain the gun as it’s in a more secure position. Kinda tough to do with a Reflex sight.

Apparently similar to what some are still being taught (@ the 4:20 mark).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3dB8FiaM6k&feature=player_embedded

Laser or Reflex (or neither) – you’ll have to make your choice, but to make blanket statements (as some in here have) ‘bout lasers being useless?

 

[Certaindeaf]

Lasers and red dots are great at the range. How do they help you in a real self defense situation? A lot of older LEO won't carry a semi - auto. Why? They are to light to use as a billy club. In a tussle situation the slide might get caught in their clothing. A local state trooper carries a 1950 something S&W model 10. Why? In over 30 years of service he has clubbed a lot of rowdies but he has never shot anyone.

Years ago, I bought a 4" M-19 with an inscribed brass skullcrusher buttplate for a gal (I forget what it said but it was pretty cool), she didn't really like it though..

 

[X-Rap]

Lasers and red dots are great at the range. How do they help you in a real self defense situation? A lot of older LEO won't carry a semi - auto. Why? They are to light to use as a billy club. In a tussle situation the slide might get caught in their clothing. A local state trooper carries a 1950 something S&W model 10. Why? In over 30 years of service he has clubbed a lot of rowdies but he has never shot anyone.

Seriously?
I don't believe that in the last 15 yrs or so a cop could keep his job long if he were inclined to pull his gun and rap folks on the head. A uniform cop will have plenty of less than leathal tools on his belt before he must pull his last resort to end a LTL encounter.
As for the fine old M10 while very servicable I haven't seen one on the belt of a LEO for years much less a Trooper, does he patrol between Mayberry and Mt. Pilot?

 

[Certaindeaf]

^
In the old old days, they carried saps and such and some would.. nevermind. Some people live to 100 years of age word has it. You could check it out on the internet just to make sure though.

 

[ScottieG59]

We all have our comfort zones and opinions on what is right. Normally, people like to stay with what has been proven over time, especially if they are familiar with the technology.

I try to adapt, though I like to wait until something new proves its value. I did not use stainless steel handguns when they first became widely available. I did not get a polymer framed pistol until about 3 years ago. I like to let other people do the testing and learn from their experiences in real world field conditions.

I think at the current time, night sights have shown themselves as having value. Personally, I find them easier to use in both daytime and darker conditions. In darker conditions, I have problems quickly acquiring a good sight picture with standard sights. Your eyes may be different.

I was slow to try out laser sights. I have installed laser sights on 3 of my carry guns. I do not use they as a primary aiming device. If I am in my normal shooting position, the laser is normally not really seen very well. However, experience has taught me that I may not be in a good position to use my sights during an attack. It is for those common, but awkward, positions I feel a laser may help. One example is when inside a motor vehicle. Another situation is when cover does not allow me to align behind my sights. Additionally, my old man eyes are better at seeing further away and focusing on the front sight may be slower. Wait until you are old and you will face the same issue; your eyes will become like a cheap fixed focus camera.

As to giving my position away with a laser, the scenario faced by a civilian is likely that your are being attacked. I guess this means they already know where you are.

 

[X-Rap]

In the old days they brought the bad guy in tied over his saddle
My comments refered to present and recent history (last 15 yrs) in which I would seriously like to hear of some actual case in which a LE used his gun as a club unless he was in a fight for his life and the gun was disabled or empty.
I also would love to hear what SP agency allows a 38 spc revolver as a primary duty weapon today.
I am well aware that in the old days police were much more allowed to "make their point" than they are today but they also had much poorer weapons training and were not equiped nearly as well. I knew an old Trooper from the early days in NM and some of the things they did would.. nevermind

 

[One_Jackal]

The trooper I am speaking about hasn't seen full time patrol duty in over 10 years. The only reason he hasn't retired is his wife has heart disease. Once he retires getting insurance for her will be a nightmare. However, I would take his advice over anyone that uses this forum. I don't care if you were special forces or what you have done. He has survived and thrived during a rough period of time for a black state trooper. The situations he has encountered over the years are very close to situations I have had to deal with in bar room brawls, etc.. In other words I can relate to his techniques and put them to use without any training.

 

[Comedian]

When I took my CHP course, the instructor brought in a former LEO for part of the course - one of his demos was working your way through your home - not recommended, but may be necessary should you need to get to family members or escape. He taught that as you travel through your house, you should advance with your left arm up, acting as a shield, and your weapon close to your body for retention. If you are surprised/struck, hopefully they'll get the left arm, allowing you to retain the gun as it’s in a more secure position. Kinda tough to do with a Reflex sight.

How would that be any more difficult with a reflex as opposed to a laser sight? Again, if you're at contact distance with your assailant any aiming aid is going to be of limited/no value.

Lasers and red dots are great at the range. How do they help you in a real self defense situation?

In the case of red dots they make accurate sighted shooting easier and faster.

A lot of older LEO won't carry a semi - auto. Why? They are to light to use as a billy club.

There's literally a dozen other things a patrol officer could carry on his duty belt that are more suitable to womping people than a pistol up to, and including, an actual club. So why would any LEO choose a pistol based on it's club like qualities?

A local state trooper carries a 1950 something S&W model 10. Why? In over 30 years of service he has clubbed a lot of rowdies but he has never shot anyone.

The officers I work with that are old enough to still be carrying a revolver carry it because they've got 20 or 30 years of experience with that platform, not because it's a good club. If you need to club somebody there's one your duty belt that can't be used to shoot you should it come out of your hand while employing it on a suspect.

 

[wally]

It won't surprise me if red dots become ubiquitous on carry pistols one day, but personally

I'd love to see it, the pre-milled slide on my FNP-45 Tactical really makes the RMR rock.

I think irons are just fine in the interim.

You'll sing a different tune when you get old!

Trijicon RMR dual illumination is IMHO the best option. No batteries required and if I live long enough to need the tritium replaced they do it for a reasonable fee.

 

[JN01]

Trijicon RMR dual illumination is IMHO the best option. No batteries required and if I live long enough to need the tritium replaced they do it for a reasonable fee.

Didn't realize that was an option. I chose the RM02 as I figured replacing a $4 battery once a year was cheaper than replacing a $450 sight every dozen years. What is a reasonable fee for tritium replacement?