Reflex vs. Laser

[Skribs]

I've been looking at potentially getting a reflex sight for some of my pistols down the road (read: when I can afford it), but I was just thinking - why do I not want a laser? I had an answer for that question years ago, when I started looking, but I don't seem to have that answer now.

From what I can tell, both have similar advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is faster target aquisition, the disadvantage is the reliance on batteries (unless a tritium/FO option is used). I think a laser would be faster, but if I rely on the laser and it fails it will take me longer to get a sight picture - if I have a reflex with cowitness and the reflex fails, I just switch real quick to the front sight. I also know there are reflex sights that can be left on for years without killing the battery, and others that use Tritium/FO and require no batteries, while a laser isn't going to last that long while on (meaning range trips = batteries as well).

I'm probably opening a can of worms, but what do you guys think? Especially people who have used both in the past. I could also use some advice on how you use a laser - i.e. do you just put the red dot on the target ASAO, or do you still go for the stance and just use the laser to ease in the aiming process? My specific application is for SD/HD.

 

[wally]

If you only shoot at night a laser might be fine, but in daylight it varies from really hard to impossible to see the dot depending on where the sun is.

IMHO the best use of a laser is for dry fire practice so the cheapest you can clamp on your gun is fine.

I do have some Crimson Trace laser grips on a couple of carry pistols, they do offer a few options in some rather unlikely scenarios. At least they are unobtrusive.

I have tried the laser sight vs a red dot optic shooting steel plates on one of those somewhat rare days when its overcast enough to actually see the laser on the plates. I'm way faster with the red dot as its too hard to find the laser if its not on the plate when going for the next one.

 

[WardenWolf]

Short answer: because if you keep the laser on it gives away your position to every man and his dog. I'm just not a fan of something that would be visible to your opponent as well as you.

 

[Skribs]

Short answer: because if you keep the laser on it gives away your position to every man and his dog. I'm just not a fan of something that would be visible to your opponent as well as you.

I was thinking about this, but at night I'd be using a flashlight for target identification anyway. In the day, they're going to figure out my position real quick, because it's either on the street and I'm already on the defensive, or its in my condo and you can see me from the door. Now that I think about it, I think your reasoning is the same reasoning I had a while back.

Wally, I don't do much shooting from a distance, but you bring up a good point. If the laser isn't on target outside, I would still need to get close to a sight picture to bring the laser on target. I was specifically thinking about Crimson Trace.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

For a short period of time, I owned some PVS-7 goggles, and had an infrared laser and Trijicon Reflex mounted on an AR (.300 Whisper). What a night gun! After running into power problems in extreme cold, and having the laser die down in sub zero cold, I had to rely on the Reflex. I found that if I held the gun centered to my body, and kind of looked over the Reflex sight (not directly through it), it sort of superimposed the red dot on the target, and I was able to quickly tag targets 10-100 yards in total darkness, and with a little more time, could make hits on silhouettes at 200 or more. Then it occurred to me that when using the laser, I could be targeted by anyone with night vision. With just the Reflex, I was not signalling my position. Fast, combat accurate, operational in extreme cold, and doesn't give away your positon like a laser. Gotta love the Reflex. No need for batteries, cold or hot.

 

[X-Rap]

I have a laser on my house gun (a G22) and a couple Reflex sights on AR's and I can say that when my coffers refill some I am opting for a reflex on my G19 that I carry. Reason being that the laser is really tough to see in the daylight and in an away from home situation the reflex will allow better target acquisition in more situations than the laser plus daylight shots at much further distances will be possible though doubtfully ever needed. I think both systems have their place as well as standard sights but if I had to chose just one configuration it would probably be the reflex with high tritium night sights as a backup over the laser and night sights.

 

[labhound]

I have a Viridian C5L laser/light on my Stoeger Cougar 8045 that I mainly use for home defense, specifically at night. The only time I use it outside is shooting at my range in the evenings. As far as target acquisition, I point the gun at the target just like I was using the iron sights and the laser dot falls right on the target.

 

[GLOOB]

but I was just thinking - why do I not want a laser? I had an answer for that question years ago, when I started looking, but I don't seem to have that answer now.

I guess you forgot how useless a laser is in strong sunlight, or at any distance beyond 5 yards of where it's zeroed, or for trying to keep shots in the vicinity of any small or moving object.

 

[Skribs]

You guys are making it sound like a reflex is the better option, for reasons other than came to mind when I wrote the OP.

 

[GLOOB]

I was specifically thinking about Crimson Trace.

There's another two reasons to not get a laser. Weak beam and lateral parallax. My friend has Crimson Trace grips on a MkIII. Since sighting it in, he's turned the thing on exactly twice. This is exactly what I expected, but he was very disappointed. It's to the point where we don't even remember it's there when we shoot it.

 

[X-Rap]

Mine is a Laser Max that replaces the guide rod, on the Glock the switch is very convenient, it isn't adjustable but it does work well and shoots to point of aim but i sunlight it is worthless. I have shot at twilight and was happy with the results especially since it is my house gun. The laser at night is visible for a great distance, far beyond any possible reason to shoot in the dark.
My dad has a couple guns with Crimson Trace grips but my shooting suffers when I put pressure on the switch to activate the beam. The Laser Max turns on and I don't have to keep pressure on it to stay on.

 

[Skribs]

Ah, didn't realize you had to keep pressure. The literature says it works with your combat grip. I assumed it was like the XDm grip safety

Definitely turned off from the laser, now.

 

[X-Rap]

They do not all require constant presure, the laser light combos that mount on the guns rails (if equiped) and as I said the type that replace the guide rod.
The best for both home defense and carry would probably be the reflex for daily carry and a light laser combo on the rail for when the sun goes down at the Casa.
If we are talking about just one gun.

 

[Skribs]

If I have a reflex, why do I need the lazer? I'd just add the light.

 

[rcmodel]

If you have a reflex sight you don't need a laser.
If you ever plan to shoot the gun outdoors in broad daylight, you don't need the laser either because you can't see the dot.

If your primary need is SD/HD as stated, you don't need either a reflex or a laser.

A reflex is just something else to have to turn on and fiddle with when something goes bump in the night.
And you don't have time to turn it on and adjust it before you can use it.

Buy a real good tactical flashlight so you can see what you are going to shoot, and use the open sights.

rc

 

[Skribs]

Rc, you don't have to turn on a tritium/fiber-optic reflex sight. There are also sights that you can leave on without worrying about the battery, because it will last for years (may have to adjust in bright daylight, but you can leave it on).

Also, you can cowitness irons with the reflex, so you're not losing the functionality of the irons.

 

[rcmodel]

I am aware of that.

You do have to replace the $1000 tritium sight every 12 years or so when the radioactive tritium half-life is over though.

All I was saying is, you win gunfights with training, iron sights, & flashlights when it's dark.

Not fancy high dollar gadgets bolted to a pistol.

But it is really none of my business what you want to clamp on your gun.

Over & out!

rc

 

[DefiantDad]

Trijicon RMR. ALWAYS ON. Always on for a whole year or two. Other reflex sights might work the same. Dual power means battery power (for night) and fiber optic during day time.

You just pick it up, and where the dot goes, that is where the bullets fly (for a zeroed range). No need to fumble with lasers.

I have both, and I can't see myself using the laser for a real threat, but I think the red dot would be very useful. I think I might have wasted a few hundred bucks on lasers, but they (I have 2 of them) have the flashlight attached.

I would HIGHLY recommend a quality red dot, and THEN you can decide if you want to get a laser.

By the way, when you aim the gun, the red dot is the one that lets you aim normally (like with iron sights) but the laser gives you a false sense of holding the gun right (if you are holding it right, the way you usually train, probably your red dot or front sight would be on target anyway.) I think it would not be realistic to shoot from the hip with the laser. At least at the range, my shots do NOT go where the laser falls, simply because it is not how I train. I guess you could train to hold the gun at the hip and shoot with the laser, but all my points above apply (you have to fumble to turn it on, in an emergency).

 

[DefiantDad]

BTW the weapon lights using those fancy 123 batteries, might actually just give you 1 hour of flashlight power. Just sayin'

 

[Skribs]

You do have to replace the $1000 tritium sight every 12 years or so when the radioactive tritium half-life is over though.

All I was saying is, you win gunfights with training, iron sights, & flashlights when it's dark.

You might have to replace it after 12 years, but it's not going to be $1000. You can get a RMR for half that. And, there are other options which have a very long battery life, and all you have to do is replace a battery every couple years.

Ironsights aren't what win the fight. Ironsights are a sight that's available. Optics have their downside (size, tritium decay or battery life), but if used properly offer advantages over irons in terms of target aquisition. I'll take training + gadgets over just training. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[X-Rap]

For me the only laser I have came with the gun so I use it. It is not complicated and the switch is very simple and doesn't detract from my grip. If it were like others I have used it would be sold and on someone elses gun.
I have to say that after using reflex and holograph sights on a couple rifles compared to stock open sights I would certainly give the edge to the guy with the reflex or holograph with all things being equal, add the fact that on the pistol set up we are speaking of you retain the iron sights so I see little to lose.
While it's true that you can't gadget yourself to competence or mastery of anything those same gadgets if of good quality are making competent people more lethal every day.

 

[JustinJ]

Lasers can actually be much slower if its not sufficiently dark as it can be hard to find the dot. The main advantage of a laser is it allows aiming from essentially any position and the potential psychological effect. I really like a reflex on a handgun. It is incredibly fast and a good one will work in any lighting conditions.

 

[Greg528iT]

I looked at the CT grip laser.. passed as I wanted a nice wood grip.

I put a Burris Fast Fire on my 5" 1911 Springer. I love it. While it does have an on off switch, word is, that the batteries will last years in the ON position. The battery is cheap, Cheap enough to replace annually if I want. someday, I'd like to melt it into the slide so I can co witness the sights and dot.

 

[ForumSurfer]

The advantage is faster target aquisition

Nope, the laser is slower than conventional sights.

My opinion on reflex sights on pistols changed after running one. My only dislike is the reliance on batteries or possibly having a unit that requires you to activate it. Well that and even the small footprint units are still a large item to mount on top of a slide if you're going to ccw with it. I'd really love to sample one of the trijicon rmr battery-free units. The price isn't that bad, you should definitely look into it and tell me what you think once you buy one.

 

[Skribs]

I'm actually wondering when the milled slide will become factory standard over a custom option. I understand there's the FNX 45 Tactical, but that adds about $400 to the price tag and isn't worth $400 for what benefits you get (IMO). Especially if it comes from the factory, it should be cheaper than a handgun + custom work if you ask me.