Reflex vs. Laser

[ForumSurfer]

I'm probably opening a can of worms, but what do you guys think? Especially people who have used both in the past. I could also use some advice on how you use a laser - i.e. do you just put the red dot on the target ASAO, or do you still go for the stance and just use the laser to ease in the aiming process? My specific application is for SD/HD.

I sight my laser in to be the same reference point at 15 yards as my front sight. The front sight mostly obscures it if I'm shooting from a proper sighted fire position. That way whatever distance I'm shooting, I know that the laser is more or less the same reference point as my front sight (although not quite due to the offset of the laser mounting position). Overall, not something I care to depend on. I spend more time trying to find that red dot than I would acquiring a sight picture. If I'm shooting from retention, the laser does have a good benefit there...but shooting from retention is meant to be done when there is no time for sighted fire, so should I depend on a laser or spend time shooting from retention at 5 yards so I feel 100% comfortable hitting a humanoid target at close range? It has some nice benefits, but you'll need to train as if the laser weren't there so that the laser is simply a "just in case" item. The potential negatives outweigh the potential positives IMO. A good laser is going to cost around $100+. I think that $100+ would be better served as ammo money and practicing point shooting or firing from position 2 of the 4 count draw. For the price of a set of crimson trace grips, I can have a class and ammo for it. That will offer shooters who haven't taken a class more benefit than the laser by a long shot.

IMHO the best use of a laser is for dry fire practice so the cheapest you can clamp on your gun is fine.

I agree.

 

[ny32182]

Laser is completely, totally useless for anything other than possibly dryfire practice specifically focusing on trigger control.

Reflex/red dot is the world standard for anyone who wants a fast, 1x optical sight.

It won't surprise me if red dots become ubiquitous on carry pistols one day, but personally I think irons are just fine in the interim.

 

[X-Rap]

I wonder what the cost would be if you took the specs for the dovetail to a machine shop and just had them do it rather than a custom gun shop? I guess I'm talking about the same guy you would take a shaft for your tractor to that does quality precision work at blue collar by the hr prices. The cut seems pretty basic.
The ones I have seen look like they add $800-$1000 dollars over the price of the reflex and high profile irons. Maybe I am wrong but it seems the parts could be had for 6-7 hundred and the guns are available all day long for $350-$450.
To me the additional 5-6 hundred to cut and assemble seems high. I guess I need to explore this more, maybe I am way off base in my thinking?

 

[ForumSurfer]

I'm actually wondering when the milled slide will become factory standard over a custom option.

When pigs fly probably.

There just isn't enough interest out there. Even if it did become a possibility, it would probably only happen on models that are generally used in IPSC or IDPA.

It won't surprise me if red dots become ubiquitous on carry pistols one day, but personally I think irons are just fine in the interim.

The problem is the real estate that it takes up. I can comfortable carry a glock 19/26 appendix carry indefinitely. With a reflex sight on it, it is no longer comfortable at all. If you carry at 3:30 to 4:30 IWB, you wear +2 size pants and you wear a loose fitting cover garment; that reflex sight isn't too much of a bother. As it is, I don't fit into that genre most days.

 

[basicblur]

Time to change your thoughts 'bout batteries?

BTW the weapon lights using those fancy 123 batteries...

CR123's are no longer "fancy" (if they ever were). If you compare apples to apples, CR123's are as cheap (or cheaper) than Energizer Ultimate Lithium AA's, etc.

I run lithium batteries in all my high tech toys since my understanding is they don't vent and are not supposed to leak. The days of tossing something like a cheap flashlight because leaking batteries made a mess of it are over - ain't gonna be no tossing of expensive gadgets (and don't want the hassle of repair) caused by leaking alkalines, etc.

I have one EOTech that takes a CR123, and I have one that takes AA batteries. I run Eveready Ultimate Lithiums in the one that takes AA batteries - the CR123's are cheaper than the Ultimate Lithium AA's.

Folks complain 'bout the price of CR123's, but you often find they're talking compared to alkalines - when you compare apples to apples, CR123's are not as much hassle / cost as folks still believe.

CR123's are expensive if you buy them in the photo section (around $5 each), cheaper at Lowe's in the flashlight section ($2.50 each, and now we're in Ultimate Lithium price range), and if you buy in bulk (I and some friends do), they run around $1.35 each (delivered) for name brand.

 

[Skribs]

I think there's a general push towards reflex sights, but most people don't want them because they require custom work. I don't really consider something that simply involves replacing a part and maybe polishing the new part (i.e. trigger kit, night sights) to be "custom work", and those services are much more readily available. I think if it didn't require shipping, waiting, and paying out $200+ to have the gun milled, a lot more people would be open to it.

I carry at about 8:30 (southpaw), and I would have absolutely no problem with a red dot.

 

[ForumSurfer]

I think there's a general push towards reflex sights, but most people don't want them because they require custom work. I don't really consider something that simply involves replacing a part and maybe polishing the new part (i.e. trigger kit, night sights) to be "custom work", and those services are much more readily available. I think if it didn't require shipping, waiting, and paying out $200+ to have the gun milled, a lot more people would be open to it.

My problem is the overall price of what I need to do to make it happen.

Trijicon RMR, battery free or battery dependent option...$500+
Mill work: Less than $100, figure $150+ on the high side with a refinish.
Skip the mill work and get a dovetail mount (extremely high IMO): free.

So we're looking at $500-$700 minimum investment for an RMR. I don't have an unlimited budget for my disposable income. If I look at it rationally, $600 in ammo and a 5-day course will make me a better shooter that the sight ever will...unless I take the same course with the sight. If I look at it from the perspective that I just want it, I have to "just want it" more than the other things I'm wanting to get involved in (600+ yard shooting, reloading, gear for 3 gun matches...)

 

[Skribs]

For me, Forumsurfer, it's not so much about the price, although the shops I've found online are charging a lot more for the work than just $100. It's about the fact that I'd have to take my gun and send it for custom work, which could be months before I get it back from some of the reviews I've read.

There are options coming out that are $200-300 (or less), but I agree it is an investment.

 

[X-Rap]

If I ever take the leap to the RMR it won't be for the either/or option, I still value the irons simply because damage to the reflex if it has taken the place of your rear sight will leave you with none. There is a premium to be paid for both but when I pull the trigger that's what I want.
Might be a while and I might go with something like the Burris in an existing dovetail for practice but my long term goal for my carry gun would be the dual sighting option but cost at this time is a factor and I too have to many wants. ($650 fish finder I just bought cleaned out my toy fund for a while)

 

[Skribs]

I'm with you on cowitness, X-Rap. Some people who do slide milling will also put a line on the RMR to use it as the rear sight should the lens fail. Even so, I'd rather have front and rear irons and the option to place a plate on the milled portion if I decide to switch back to factory irons...like with the FNX tactical.

 

[GLOOB]

The laser falls short because in most SD encounters, the shooters don't score 100% good hits. More like 30%. Having a laser won't magically turn that to 100%. Your adrenaline will be up and the other guy is going to try to avoid being shot. Would you rather see a flash sight picture good enough to get a pretty good shot off at a pretty good point in time, or try to watch for a glimpse of a red spec jumping on/off your intended target for a 10th of a second at a time and hope that when you squeeze the trigger the dot is still where you wanted it to be and that you don't jerk the trigger?

I would personally prefer reflex >> night sights >> regular sights >> laser.

 

[DefiantDad]

CR123's are no longer "fancy" (if they ever were). If you compare apples to apples, CR123's are as cheap (or cheaper) than Energizer Ultimate Lithium AA's, etc.

I run lithium batteries in all my high tech toys since my understanding is they don't vent and are not supposed to leak. The days of tossing something like a cheap flashlight because leaking batteries made a mess of it are over - ain't gonna be no tossing of expensive gadgets (and don't want the hassle of repair) caused by leaking alkalines, etc.

I have one EOTech that takes a CR123, and I have one that takes AA batteries. I run Eveready Ultimate Lithiums in the one that takes AA batteries - the CR123's are cheaper than the Ultimate Lithium AA's.

Folks complain 'bout the price of CR123's, but you often find they're talking compared to alkalines - when you compare apples to apples, CR123's are not as much hassle / cost as folks still believe.

CR123's are expensive if you buy them in the photo section (around $5 each), cheaper at Lowe's in the flashlight section ($2.50 each, and now we're in Ultimate Lithium price range), and if you buy in bulk (I and some friends do), they run around $1.35 each (delivered) for name brand.

I agree with all the points you raised, expect that I still find the 123 batteries to be less ubiquitous. I look at it like caliber. Now I have to worry about stocking the 123 batteries in addition to AA. And that goes with the entire support structure (recharging). I don't have rechargeable 123s right now but am considering it. I did buy bulk boxes of 123 so I have enough to last a few years I reckon. But still, it would be better if I could just consolidate everything on AA batteries (lithium, rechargeable, etc). Anyway, this is a side note to the main thread topic (but not entirely irrelevant).

 

[DefiantDad]

For me, Forumsurfer, it's not so much about the price, although the shops I've found online are charging a lot more for the work than just $100. It's about the fact that I'd have to take my gun and send it for custom work, which could be months before I get it back from some of the reviews I've read.

There are options coming out that are $200-300 (or less), but I agree it is an investment.

Sending the slide in to get it milled is exactly why I have not done it yet. In fact I was asking around for prices for a spare slide, and to see if any shop will buy the spare slide for me, mill it, and send it to me, then I won't be out of a working gun. Or one less gun (I have two 9mms). And I wanted to get a spare slide and barrel eventually anyway. But nobody has given me any quotes on this (not that I was trying real hard).

 

[DefiantDad]

The laser falls short because in most SD encounters, the shooters don't score 100% good hits. More like 30%. Having a laser won't magically turn that to 100%. Your adrenaline will be up and the other guy is going to try to avoid being shot. Would you rather see a flash sight picture good enough to get a pretty good shot off at a pretty good point in time, or try to watch for a glimpse of a red spec jumping on/off your intended target for a 10th of a second at a time and hope that when you squeeze the trigger the dot is still where you wanted it to be and that you don't jerk the trigger?

I would personally prefer reflex >> night sights >> regular sights >> laser.

If you see a laser on you, you are probably going to squirm and dodge, so IMHO I think a laser sight can detract from your hit rate on a threat. In my imagination, I would think a laser aiming device would be only useful in a "fast and furious" CQB firefight where everyone is running around trying to shoot the other guys faster, and so you have nothing to lose already (you have no cover or concealment) and you are running carbines and not pistols. Like I said, I feel I got suckered into buying the laser devices from watching the movies, and if I had to do it all over again I would not buy any lasers.

 

[Skribs]

Glad to see I'm not alone, Defiant.

I don't think the average BG is going to see a laser on him when his attention is on me, though.

 

[DefiantDad]

True but with some dust in the way, the eye can readily notice the SOURCE of a laser beam.

In fact, let's be clear, a reflex red dot will ALSO be visible from a distance, if the target is looking at the shooter at the right angle. That is the physics of the REFLEX sight. I am not sure if a holographic will be the same. I tried holo sights at the LGS but did not like the recticles I tried (EOTech as I recall) so went for the RMR.

 

[basicblur]

Jest sitting here trying to figure out where all this fascination with reflex sights has come from, ‘specially for HD…video games, advertisers, somebody’s gun guru pushing ‘em (some of ‘em also push lasers)?

It sure looks to me like:
1. A lot more theory than reality / practicality being tossed about.
2. Chances are if you have a laser dot on you you’re going to be squirming and dodging.
Mebbe…but chances equally are the BG might also think since you have him in your sights, it’s time to give it up. Trying to get into a BG’s mind to predict what he’s thinking or how he’s going to react is pretty much an academic exercise - BG’s are like a box of chocolates…
3. AFA lasers, sounds like some folks are looking for the dot – I think you’ll find if you look for the target, the dot’s gonna follow.
4. As usual, a lot of folks are only looking at one side of an argument when it comes to their preference – everything’s a compromise – pick yur poison.

What appears to me to be a sudden interest in reflex sights I fully expect to soon go the way of light triggers, lasers, (insert your favorite flavor of the month here), or until something new and of questionable worth for a particular situation (but making money for someone) comes along.

 

[DefiantDad]

I guess what I am also saying is that plain old iron sights (maybe with night sights; which I don't have) may be superior to both reflex (and definitely laser) in fast acquisition versus not being acquired (that quickly) by the other guy. I am a total newbie with this gun stuff, but this is what I've deduced so far. Having said that, for my purposes right now, I would prefer to have a reflex red dot for my guns, if I had to use them for defense right now, and maybe that opinion will change later if I get to be more proficient with only iron sights (and night sights). Just my 2 cents from my perspective (literally haha).

 

[Skribs]

Basicblur, it's the fact that a reflex sight doesn't have to be exactly lined up in order to tell you what you're going to hit. Instead of lining up the front dot between the two rear dots, you can just put the red dot on target and pull the trigger. The dot moves within the reflex sight so if you're not looking directly at it, the dot moves to show you where the real point of aim will be. Faster target aquisition = faster hits on target.

It's not because its in video games, or because the military uses it (that's why its in video games), or because some manufacturer's are pushing it - it's because when people try it, they realize it works. It's also a lot easier to use a reflex sight with both eyes open than irons, which aids in situational awareness.

Defiant, it sounds to me like you're talking about combat at this point. A self defense shooter is already acquired by the attacker. Whether or not you're spotted is irrelevant, whether or not you can shoot first is what is important.

 

[basicblur]

Basicblur, it's the fact that a reflex sight doesn't have to be exactly lined up in order to tell you what you're going to hit.

I'm a long time owner of a couple of EOTechs-I understand how they work.
I just don't understand this fascination with 'em on handguns.

It's also a lot easier to use a reflex sight with both eyes open than irons, which aids in situational awareness.

Not everybody has much luck with both eyes open (unless they're using a laser).
Try being cross-dominant, with the added bonus of the dominant eye changing from day to day due to varying eye pressure...now try shooting with both eyes open!

A self defense shooter is already acquired by the attacker.

Again, everyone wants to script the perfect scenario to fit their beliefs - who says the attacker has already acquired the shooter? 'Spose you're dealing with a home break-in...you could very well acquire the attacker before he does you.

 

[DefiantDad]

Skribs - you're right, for the laser scenario I am thinking about a combat situation.

The finer point on this is, in a CQB, everyone EXPECTS the other guy to shoot first. So the rules of engagement are simply you try to shoot the other guy first.

In personal defense, you might not be 100% sure the other guy IS going to shoot you. If you acquire the bad guy before he acquires you, then that is not necessarily an IMMINENT THREAT and I do not believe you can be justified to "snipe" him. Of course, unless the bad guy(s) already killed everyone in the household and you have very good justification to believe he/they are just out to kill you as well (e.g., active shooter).

Just pondering: If you have a laser on him, that might make him/her/they react reflexively (e.g., either they scramble out of the way, or they freak out and pull their trigger on you hoping to do so BEFORE YOU CAN PULL YOUR TRIGGER since they figure you got a laser on them already and the next step is shooting, and they have nothing to lose).

This is all theoretical anyway. The most important thing goes back to how quickly can you acquire a target using a laser versus reflex versus iron sights. In fact, now that I think about it, it's possible that for some people, laser is faster, just because of how they train and how their brains react to stimuli. So, that's the qualifier, but again, in my personal opinion, for your purposes, I would say I'd pick a reflex red dot over a laser device, but would focus training more on plain old iron sights so that I do not have to depend on either. I am saying this for my own benefit also, rather than lecturing anyone, because that is what I intend to do.

Further thoughts on that are, if you milled the RMR onto your slide, then that would prevent you from training only with iron sights (unlike, say, mounting a co-witnessed reflex on a rifle).

 

[Skribs]

If he has a weapon out and is actively pursuing me or inside my home, I don't have to wait to see how he reacts to me drawing. Whether or not I have a red dot is not going to affect what the attacker does, but it will affect how fast I can react.

There are also glare reducers that make it so you don't have as much glare on the front of the sight.

Having the RMR wouldn't prevent you from training with irons - you just line up the irons like you normally would.

 

[TimboKhan]

It's just my opinion, but I think learning how to effectively use the irons will be far more beneficial in the long run than slapping either a red dot or a laser on.

To my way of thinking, your just adding an unnecessary level of potential failure. I know the RMR gets rave reviews. I know all the wonderful advantages of battery life, and I know they work well in competion and stuff, but competition and real life are two entirely different things. Irons on a pistol are unlikely to fail.

And look, if you want faster target acquisition, something like the XS express sight is pretty good, and also cheaper. You give up gilt edge accuracy, but you also have a big dot to index on and I can assure you that they are excellent combat sights. I like red dots on rifles, because they make a lot of sense and are much more intuitive to use. On a pistol though, I think they are a solution looking for a problem. Additionally, and this is extremely important, red dots and/or lasers and/or lights on a pistol (or any firearm) are in no way, shape or form a good substitute for trigger time. Competition shooters shoot fast with them because they shoot a ton, not because they are magic.

A RMR costs roughly $550, and you can buy around 2000 rounds of 9mm for that (for example). Truthfully, that 2000 rounds of trigger time is going to pay off way, way more than a RMR will. Confidence you earn shooting is far more valuable than confidence you get from a gadget. I say that because you say this:

but it will affect how fast I can react

No, it won't, and if you don't train hard with it, your actually going to be significantly slowed down by it, because your going to be searching for the dot. If you shoot and shoot and shoot and train correctly and with purpose, yes. But, if you do all that, your going to be just as good with iron sights.

 

[Skribs]

Why do people assume that adding optics and training are mutually exclusive? It always comes up with hardware issues "it doesn't beat training." Well, how about training + hardware vs. just training?

What I meant by improving my reaction time, is it improves the time from when I notice the problem to when I can accurately place shots on target. Yes, it might not be as fast as red dot on a rifle, but irons on a pistol are slower than irons on a rifle. And, like I said - you can cowitness irons. So it's not like I'm only relying on the red dot.

 

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

Perhaps you should check out a "sightless shooting " class ? I bet with a little practice you will be able to have 2 -5 shots on target in the same time it would take you to aquire the laser ! Laser can be a good training aid but I would rather practice a skill that only requires that I have a functional firearm ! Kevin