Reloading defense ammunition !!??

[JAMES77257]

Oh, BTW..................if you ever have to defend yourself in such a way - empty the mag, clip, etc on them. Dead men can't sue and the families of such deadbeats rarely do sue because they have already written them off as dead anyway and have little or no knowledge of their whereabouts or activities. (As a side note - it can be argued that emptying the clip was an instinctive act of preservation on your part, further justifying that you felt you were in mortal danger).

That's murder 2 my friend.

 

[ATAShooter]

Atty: Did you put 3n1 oil on your gun 3 days prior to the shooting?

defendant: yes

Atty: So, you were planning on shooting someone 3 days prior?

Defendant: No

Atty: So, why did you put 3n1 on your gun 3 days prior if you didn't plan to use it?

Defendant: Maintanence

Atty: so that it would work correctly in the event you would NEED to shoot someone?

Defendant: Yes

Atty: So, you DID plan on using it sometime 3 days prior.

Moral of this story,... Liberal lawyers can make a can of 3n1 oil sound like a pre-meditation of murder nowdays. :banghead:

 

[ATAShooter]

I Just Realized...

I just set myself up for a " Anybody that puts 3n1 oil on a gun SHOULD be thrown in prison" attack. DOH !!!

 

[dmftoy1]

I think you have to have been cross-examined by a real lawyer to have any concept of how much they can twist ANYTHING. I've only had it done twice and both times I was a "friendly" witness and came out of there wondering which way was up.

I still go back to the idea that correct decision making on whether to use deadly force and bullet placement are more important factors than whether you're using handloads. If you shoot someone you've got some pretty serious legal ramifications to deal with even if it's 100% justified.

Just my .02

 

[Steve C]

My point was, the prosecuter made it a point about using a 10mm ("More powerful than a police gun" and using JHP "designed to kill". My point was had the loads been "reloads" I could see the prosecutor making a point of that as well ...

The Fish case was unusual and from the perspective of many his being found guilty was a result of an over zealous prosecutor, political pressure from the people who where distant acquaintances of the deceased along with the legal circumstance in Az at the time and an initial defense attorney that IMO wasn't the sharpest knife in the rack.

At that time under AZ law a person claiming self defense had the burden of the proof and had to prove themselves innocent beyond reasonable doubt rather than the typical criminal situation where the prosecutor had to prove the person being tried as being guilty beyond reasonable doubt. This has since been changed by the AZ legislature.

The police detective that did the initial investigation of the shooting came out and said publicly that the evidence at the scene supported Mr. Fish's account of the incident yet neither the prosecutor or Fish's lawyer pushed that evidence. There was some things in the paper about the police report being altered from the initial detectives report too.

Even so, any reference to ammo type showing an intent to kill would be challenged by a competent defense attorney as being prejudicial, inflammatory and not germane to the issue of self defense. If the judge allowed such remarks to go on record a good attorney would have called 10 police officers and asked them what type of ammo they carried, a ballistic expert to determine how "more deadly" was his 10mm vrs a police .40 S&W and a Dr to testify if Mr. Fish had been using a lower powered ammo, like using a Police load .40 black talon for example, would the person definitely be alive.

Mr. Fish didn't obtain a good lawyer until after he was convicted and tried to get a new trial under the newly revised AZ statute.

 

[Mark whiz]

Steve............that is exactly the kind of details I expected to see on this case - much more than meets the eye in a general discussion of an issue such as this.

dfmtoy1
I have been grilled by a lawyer a couple of times (although calling him "good or real" may be a stretch of the imagination) due to my fairly recent divorce............and quite frankly he tried to engage in a battle of wits, but he came to court without any ammo! After spending almost 2 full days on the stand under constant harrassment, my lawyer told me I had put the idiot to shame and had the judge eating out of my hand because of the way I handled the goof. That's why I don't fear lawyers - logic, common sense, and EVIDENCE will defeat lies & inuendo practically everytime. Know your local laws, and do all to stay within the guidelines of said laws, and unless politics and other garbage comes in to play - your evidence should do the trick. And as you mentioned, if you ever HAVE to defend yourself - you will be in for some serious grief, no doubt. So again, Make SURE you are within the law before pulling the trigger and be able to prove it.

The key here for me is why I choose to defend myself, my family, & my property in the 1st place. I refuse to be victimized, bullied, and controlled by a Criminal. If that is the case, WHY should I then choose to let myself be bullied around by a lawyer?? The principle here being I will not sit still and consent to being a victim - not to anyone. THAT is why we have a Constitution in the 1st place - so that NO citizen should have to allow himself to be victimized, not by criminals, not by the Gov't, and not by mealy-mouthed lawyers.

OH BTW - emptying the clip is NOT murder 2................... every LEO I have ever talked to said to pull the trigger until nothing comes out - except maybe if there are possible innocents in the area. Now, shooting the Perp and THEN walking up to his head to finish the clip WOULD be murder - and should be, but a simple act of instinctive defense, shooting repeatedly from the same spot out of fear for one's life meets every definition of self-defense.

 

[temmi]

This is an old question... and I prefer to keep it simple.
Find a good commercial SD ammo.. Crono it and try to duplicate it…
Practice with your handloads and carry commercial SD ammo. That way there is NO doubt you are using STANDARD ammo… and there is just one less thing to deal with… remember there is still the Civil “Wrongful Death Suit” to look forward to… and if you have used your ammo… someone will have to answer the question… “why was commercial SD ammo not good enough”… you can bet that trial will be much more emotional…

 

[Nnobby45]

Oh really?

But here is the truth, up until now - there is absolutely ZERO evidence available that this has ever been successfully used in a court of law.

With all due respect, how would you know the degree to which it had an impact in court? If the attorney uses it at all, he/she must think it will have an impact. Just more weight on your adversary's side of the scale that your attorney will have to spend your money refuting. It becomes one more bullet your advarsary can send your way, and you may not even know how badly you were hit by it.

It's some what amusing that there are those who are always challenging someone to prove that which is impossible to measure, since any single such issue is but one part of the whole.

 

[2400]

I wouldn't carry reloads, but if I did I'd get some factory ammo, pull the bullets and reload with my own choice of powder and bullets. At least that'd eliminate the chance of a primer not going off.

I don't see any good reason not to use factory ammo, though. They do a lot of research to get the best performance and have a pretty good record on dependability.

I'm trying to understand how you can have "pretty good dependability" with the factory primers you used "to eliminate primer failure"?

In a self defense round I want more then "pretty good dependability" to bet my life on.

 

[tomhorn]

I use that old winchester black talon its factory and very reliable oh I use a 44mag and or a 45 L/C you can have anything on the bottom floor as long as my family is up stairs if you try to comeup stairs I will stop you and it will leave a mark .on you and the wall behind you .

 

[jeepmor]

Double Tap - fast and not handloaded.

 

[Bullet]

nitesite

Keep in mind the flash-suppressed blended powders used in many brands of premium personal protection ammunition.

You can't get that with the powder you buy off the shelf.

This is what convinced me to use factory ammo for defense.
I load my own for practice.

 

[bigsarg99]

I carry 230gr Hornady TAP because I one I know it works proven stuff, Two I know im gonna get sued by the family of someone who assaulted me, while i was minding my own business btw, no sense making it worse by them saying I made laser raygun bullets ( even though all I had was ordinary componets). The Lawers will twist it so bad that I will have defended myself or family with something that hasn't even been invented yet. Besides might as well give the the bullet makers some feedback on how their bullets work!!!

 

[grendelbane]

I have never understood the people who recommend factory ammuntion for reliability reasons. The comments concerning liability, I do understand.

If you assemble it yourself, you know that their is a flash hole in the case, and that there is powder present. You can visually inspect the primer. With factory loaded ammunition, this is impossible.

Could it be that some people just do not trust their own hand loading ability? It seems like it. These people should indeed use factory ammunition. In fact, if they can't trust themselves to load the very few cartridges necessary for SD, they really ought to consider not handloading at all.

 

[darwin-t]

Something happened in Indianapolis that relates to the subject of self defense. Two guys broke into a woman's apartment. She shot and killed one of them, the other fled. That guy can be charged with felony murder because someone was killed during a felony that he participated in. Man, I LOVE Indiana.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070219/LOCAL1803/702190386/1195/LOCAL

Be sure to read the comments.

 

[Idano]

darwin-t,

Sorry to tell you but you have misplaced trust in factory ammunition, it can misfire too. I have experienced misfires in Remington and Winchester ammunition in the past. I now only trust my reloads never factory. Think of it like packing a chute would you rather jump from a plane with chute packed by yourself or some stranger?

 

[Crimp]

Keep in mind the flash-suppressed blended powders used in many brands of premium personal protection ammunition.

You can't get that with the powder you buy off the shelf.
--nitesite

Low-flash Vihtavouri powders are available off-the-shelf and are excellent handgun powders.

 

[MCgunner]

I don't listen to Mas Ayoob on this one. I live in Texas. Either a shooting is justified or it isn't, case closed. As they say, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, but I can't handload anything any more effective than I can buy, really. And, I keep it cheaper with handloads and I always have a source for those loads, important to me since I don't live where I can readily buy ammo anywhere, but Walmart. My 9mm stuff just duplicates CorBon and does it a LOT cheaper!

My point was, the prosecuter made it a point about using a 10mm ("More powerful than a police gun" and using JHP "designed to kill".

To which I'd ask him, was the .380 ACP designed to WOUND?! Of course the 10 is designed to kill. I wouldn't carry ammo that wouldn't stop the fight! The idea is to stop the fight and the quicker the better! One good thing about lawyers, they don't often exhibit the ability to think logically.

Like I say, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I often carry a .357 Magnum, another cartridge "designed to kill". At least I know that law enforcement agencies around the country gave up the .357 for 9mm automatics, so the 9 must be designed to kill better, eh?

Don't worry about lawyers unless you're a murderer. If you're defending yourself, don't matter if you shoot 'em with a 105 howitzer or run 'em over with your car or put an axe blade in their cranium, of chop their heads off with a chain saw...self defense is just that.

 

[mballai]

I've seen this discussion more than once. I would opt to use something purchased in a store. If asked why I chose it, I would say it was on the shelf and it was designed to protect me and my family if I ever needed to use it. And then ask if there was a law against protecting myself.

 

[1911user]

I would reload defense ammo, but I'd end up spending so much time with extra QC steps that it wouldn't be worth it. I'd rather buy a box of $20 ammo once or twice a year and let the factory do the QC work.

 

[Clark]

We did a survey and had a long thread on this, as have many forums.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=172213&highlight=Ayoob

 

[Idano]

Originally Posted by 1911user:
I would reload defense ammo, but I'd end up spending so much time with extra QC steps that it wouldn't be worth it. I'd rather buy a box of $20 ammo once or twice a year and let the factory do the QC work.

I don't understand this statement, don't you take the same care regardless of what you are reloading? This is why you can never trust reloaded ammuniton from some else!

 

[1911user]

I don't understand this statement, don't you take the same care regardless of what you are reloading? This is why you can never trust reloaded ammuniton from some else!

Talk about jumping to conclusions! I take reasonable care when loading practice and match ammo (probably more than many reloaders). My reloaded ammo has fed, fired, and ejected with boring consistency for tens of thousands of rounds over the years.

For loading my own defense ammo, the QC level would go way up. It would be the practical equivelent of mil-spec testing and that takes time and effort to do right. I doubt you do this for your practice ammo and I don't for mine. You can bet factories do similar QC analysis and control for each lot of premium defense ammo they sell. As I said, it's easier for me to just buy a box or 2 of $20 ammo every year for defense ammo.

 

[Idano]

I didn't jump to any conclusions, you clearly stated you don't maintain the quality of your reloads to that of off the shelf ammunition for practice rounds. I simply replied I don't understand why you would reload to a lesser standard of quality regardless whether it is for practice or defense. Properly reloaded ammunition should at a minimum be equal to and more often superior then factory ammunition. Your comments implied that there are two standards, one for practice ammunition and another for when you life depends on it. I am saying you should always reload as if your life depends on it because it does! Maybe that sounds a little extreme but I don't believe in taking short cuts when it comes to reloading. Here are the answers to your questions:

I would be recording and testing primers, powders, brass, and bullets all seperated by lot date codes. Idano> Why, what practical application does this have, you certainly don't get this with any factory ammunition.

Do you record the lot number of the primers and powder for each batch of practice ammo you load? Idano> Again why, what practical application does this have, you certainly don't get this with any factory ammunition.

Do you retain unloaded samples of the components used in each ammo lot? Idano> Again why, what does this have to do with the quality of the ammunition?

Do you perform random sampling of 25% of each lot of loaded ammo then perform statistical analysis on the chrono and accuracy results? Idano> No, once I dial in a load and I don't go back and re-evaluate it unless I change guns. However, I maintain strict control over over my reloads to ensure that they are assembled correctly and with the correct charge regardless whether they are for practice or defense. By the way I don't believe in practice rounds. I only build up one load per gun and I strive for the point where maximum energy and the best accuracy meet. I then use those rounds for hunting, self defense, and practice. To me part of practicing involves the feel of the recoil, especially for pistol and I shoot 200-300 rounds a week at the range

Would you visually inspect all primers, powder, brass, and bullets before loading them? Idano> Yes absolutely, that is what all responsible reloader are suppose to do. I also clean all primer pockets before I reload.

Would you test the loaded ammo in a wide range of temperatures and light levels for consistency and muzzle flash? No, and do your check your factory ammunition and know it is consistent in different temperatures? Muzzle flash certainly not an issue for me since I use my ammunition for hunting and self defense not sniping and it hasn't affected my kill rate on rock chuck.

You realize that you are puting a lot of faith in that factory ammuntion that you haven't verified yourself with your guns. Remember that factory ammuntion is desinged to operate safely in the lowest quality modern production gun currently available.

 

[RustyFN]

No, I was advised by my instructor for all the same reasons everybody brought up. The way I figure it is if I by one box of self defence ammo and shoot six or eight in my gun to make sure they cycle and shoot good. The rest of them should last me years because I will practice with my reloads.
Rusty