Remember little me?

[bigjim]

fjolnirsson
An apology doesn't make something less abhorrent.
JMHO
YMMV

Adding silly abbreviations does not make an opinion any less of a opinion. There was nothing abhorrent about his opinions.
That is my opinion.

"IDCIYA" (I don't care if you agree)

"PDBOCIWJD" (please don't be offended cuz I would just die)

"STPGITWOC" (Sometimes politeness gets in the way of communication)

 

[czhen]

Very complex context, but simple subject

Dear White Wing
It's so interesting for me when smarts people can debate, listen, express or just acquire knowledge from others.
First of all, Are there any European citizens, anti-gun or pro-gun person able to assure me that will never appears a Hitler, Stalin, King George, Mussolini, Ceausescu etc.? Secondly, Why can deprive my rights to practice a just very pleasant sport where focus and skills must be use to success. Furthemore, Why can deprive my rights to protect my family, properties or just myself from all above. In short, my rights are the essence of your freedom.

Ps.: They first came to pick-up Polish, them Checz, them gypsies, finally came to take me.
Berthold Brecht
I 'm sorry if wrote wrong the quote from some German poet.

 

[Stickjockey]

Farnam-

What I did say, is that we've got enough American anti's here without them being reinforced by European anti's.

The difference here is that we have a confessed anti who has admitted that because of our civility and insightful commentary, his views are starting to change, and who's actually listening to us with at least a half-open mind.

Whitewing-

As you can see, the issue of gun ownership is a very personal thing. But through all the different personal reasons, it all boils down to this: the ownership of a gun, and all that it entails (training in it's use, responsible handling, etc.) is what allows a person to resist those who would restrict those rights that are inherent in an individual's mere existence, whether they are an individual, a group of individuals, or a government.

(Hope that made sense. )

 

[Farnham]

czhen, nobody can assure you that there will never be another Hitler, except you, and your friends, family, and countrymen that will not give up their Sunday afternoons at the range. It is definitely reassuring to hear from others around the world that believe "my rights are the essence of your freedom."

Stickjockey, point taken.

White Wing, my opinions are already there, what would you say to change them? As you might have noticed, I'm "opinionated," a condition I would also accuse anti-gunners of being in. So if you would change my opinions, how then might I change yours?

The facts are already out there, if you need the facts, history is full of them. Hitler, Mao, George, and Mussolini ALL disarmed (or in one case, tried to disarm) their people, and then commenced to killing, imprisoning, or otherwise abusing them. If you'd like me to, I'll give you numbers, statistics, stories, and quotes on how a disarmed populace ALWAYS loses freedoms beyond the RKBA, but I have a feeling you already know, or you wouldn't be asking the questions you have.

Twoblink was definitely on to something, I think that explanation was the clearest I've ever read of how words and emotion interfere with our thinking.

 

[White Wing]

TwoBlink:
I see your point. This is exactly the stuff I’m after. Hey, I’m gonna post
something tomorrow; something I hold as one argument against guns as a
aid in protecting freedom. I don’t have time for much today; some friends
are arriving later. We’ve been planning an inter-rail (train trip throughout
Europe) and we’re continuing today. We’ll be touring Europe by train from
Paris to Rome to Istanbul and it requires some serious groundwork.
But that’s for all of you; I need a little time to formulate the post and I’ll be
throwing it at the boards tomorrow. Maybe late tonite after the guys leave,
but we’ll see… It’s a major principle among a few I know, mnrivrat.
So I’m looking forward to see what you guys have to say about it.

Farnham,
I’m not here to change people’s opinions. I’m here to throw my arguments
at a gang of people with knowledge I don’t have so that I can hear what
about the things I hold as true are wrong. Nobody can really say they see
the whole picture. Thing is I’ve been hearing only one side of the case for,
well, my whole life, and what arguments speak against my opinions have
been scarce. No opinions can be said to be valid before they have been
tested wouldn’t you agree? With such a high percentage of an American
people who would like to hang on to their guns, what it boils down to is
that assuming that I have all the facts is maybe somewhat arrogant.

And on the account that I should just read the facts off the internet. Well,
it isn’t the same as debating my opinions. I may have arguments myself
that can’t be answered in the factual columns out there and the only way
to test those opinions is to come here.
I just hope that you and the others who would like to get me off the
boards come to see that I’m not here for an argument. It was said I
seemed to, despite my statement saying I was unshaped on the issue,
seemed to be strong in my opinions. Well, you know? Both are true. I have
been having a strong opinion on the case, but have come to realise that I
might not want to be so sure about it after all. Not because I’ve been
hearing good arguments lately, but on the basis of principle: I’m a human
being, and can’t be said to have all the facts. And no opinion can be said to
be valid without being tested.
Czhen Said I was smart here. I’m honoured, but I won’t even
divulge the result of my last IQ test. I’m not all that clever; I just find “All
you really know is that you know nothing†to be a wise phrase. The thing
that remains is whether I am brave enough to be wrong and if I’m brave
enough to have my opinions changed. Again; I’m not here to change your
perceptions, but to challenge my own.

So to WonderBill, Anna G, SlamFire, Oleg Volk, VeT|Us, Justin, Michael,
Fjolnirsson, Freedomv, only1asterisk, Baba Luie, TwoBlink, czhen, and not
least Stickjockey thx for your good faith. I appreciate it very much!

 

[White Wing]

By the way; sorry if you guys took the “vulgar Americans†a little rude. No
offence. As I said; all the Americans I know personally are good people;
sorry we never get those overseas…
Baba Luie: The French are as arrogant as ever! Elegant, beautiful
and charming, but as arrogant as the crème of snobs. A Frenchman always
eats French food and never speaks English. People say it’s because of
their opinion that French should be the language of the world and so they
express their views thus. Man they can be hard to deal with.

 

[Baba Louie]

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/index.html
Probably worthy of a thread on its own (It may be that someone has already started one on it and I'm just too lazy to search for it) but it appears that Finland and Norway are #1 & 2 in terms of gun ownership in Europe w/ Finland being #2 in the world. Seek out their "Media" reports in the link for specific country surveys. I find it interesting that France has more unregistered firearms than several countries combined or that France and Germany combined have 3 times the amount of firearms that England has. How quickly some people forget some very important lessons, a fact that both Norway and Finland seem to remember for some odd reason (LOL). I guess invasion and occupation will do that to a culture.

White Wing... chalk it up to a warrior mentality. Some got it. Some don't. I liken it to a small boy (typically its a male thing) who likes to skip rocks on a pond, likes fireworks and things that are slightly dangerous and loud and scare mom... then combine the two. Loud, accurate rock chucking devices. Combine that with a particular culture's history, write it into your government's basic rules as an inalienable right pre-ordained by the creator for all mankind and you get a bunch of people who actually start to believe it and live it... I guess. Works for me anyway
It's kinda like computer programming. GIGO. Sometimes, the garbage is useful stuff.
From a female perspective (I'm speculating here so work with me) some female units have a nice streak of Tomboy in them and that helps. Factor in the MOM equation or a stong sense of self preservation and defense of their young'uns... well, you can figure that out can't ya?

Finally, there is the Darwin or the survival of the fittest theory. The strong will survive and be criticized by the weak for being such dominant idiots. (meanwhile, the strong criticize the weak for being so... weak and pansy-fied) Did the Vikings really need all those swords, axes and archery stuff when they visited Brittania, Europe, etc to raid peace loving (right!) people armed with sticks and plows who would have been willing to appease them if they'd only been given half a chance? I mean, the mayor of Paris gave the Vikings 600 tonnes of silver if they promised to leave Paris alone. They took the silver and decided since it worked so well and the Parisians were so hospitable, they'd come back and vacation there again next year (Ah, Paris in the spring).

Are we wearing ya down yet? Or winning ya over? Here's how programmed I've become over the last 5 decades. It's so obvious to my way of thinking I can't imagine being able to sucessfully debate the con side of the coin. Brainwashed I am, I tell ya.
Not one of my firearms have ever been fired by me in anger at another human being and I hope to keep it that way.
If you're ever in Las Vegas, look me up and I'll take you out for a day away from the casinos making some noise while we terrorize some soda cans and paper plates in the desert. (We like all tourists since they leave so much money here. I avoid them like the plague.)

So to sum up... It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

 

[Anna G.]

"Anna G, I didn't say or imply that the Europeans were in any way inferior to Americans"

For some reason it sounded like that. Maybe because what you said sounded like ALL europeans are anti gun (or at least it could be read this way), i.e. we are inferior in our way of thinking. I am glad this is not the case.

"see France, Germany, and Russia and the Iraq War, the Revolutionary War"

And thats a bad thing? Lets not go into another is-the-war-in-Iraq-reasonable argument. I just dont find disagreement with someone's politics a bad thing.

"see World War I and World War II, and don't tell me you could have done it without that help. If I get hauled out of a life or death situation, I don't call it help, I call it rescue."

Maybe we would, maybe we wouldnt, who knows. In both cases your help is appreciated. But its not known if YOU would have done it by yourself either. USA partecipated into coalition, and that coalition won the war.

"No, I didn't have to come up with that conclusion, some very smart early Americans knew it and cared enough about it to outlaw our government's infringing on it."

We didnt have that luck. Dont hold it against us.

White Wing, I have heard the same about the french. Why do they have to embarrass us in front of the americans and create the impression we dont like them? I vote we kick them out of Europe.

 

[griz]

Hello White Wing,
In this thread I haven't seen a real question from you or a position to address. Could you be a little more specific about what you would like to talk about? One place to start would be the unanswered three pages.

 

[White Wing]

Baba Luie:
You’re sortof getting to me. I’m seeing a few points already that are rather
valid. I haven’t even posted as griz says, an opinion yet and I’m
already gathering some good points.
And yes, griz. I think one opinon from me might spawn even six
pages of arguments from you guys. A good reason to come to this board is
that people are such damn good debaters

By the way, Baba; I’m coming to the U.S next year I think. Primarily
the east coast, but maybe as far as Arizona. I don’t know if I’ll get as far as
Las Vegas though… I've been looking at some maps though, and it seems
Las Vegas is right on the border to Arizona! Chance is good I think that me
and Fernando will take a trip there when I come to visit him... If we do, I'll
be looking you up definately!

Anna G:
Yeh, maybe we should kick them out of Europe… I dunno; maybe give
Germany, Spain and Italy some privileges on their French borders? And
who thinks France when someone says Normandie? Let’s hand it back to
the English who have owned it… well, now and then…

I’m putting together a post right now to go on the boards. It’s rather long
and I want to formulate it all as good as I can. Mostly my posts are easy to
misunderstand if I don’t spend some time formulating it in WordPerfect;
things might get messy... Doing that now as a matter of fact for this post
here; there’s something about the text window on the boards that leave
me confused in some way…

 

[joab]

White Wing
Once again you come and announce your intent to debate an issue but fail to actually engage in debate. I am admittedly not the smartest member here, but it is my understanding that a debate consist of point/counterpoint discussions where an opinion is expressed and some sort of fact is used to back up that point of view
Instead, as before, you keep saying that you want to debate and complimenting others on their abilities but express only your feelings.
Personnally I don't care about your feeelings, Not because I don't like you or because I'm insensitive, but because feelings are based on emotions which have no place in debate. A discussion based on emotions is an argument and serves no purpose.

In other words
The debating's commenced, get to debating or get away

 

[winstonsmith]

Norway is an expensive piece of hollyday and the
only tourists we get are the rich and pompus . It’s always just as amusing
to see the rich snob tourists stribe their way through a new culture. I dig
the pompus Germans and vulgar Americans spreading their cash on Viking
helmets and lead tours. Wicked!

I think his true color has already shown itself. RED.

YMMV,

 

[griz]

Did someone say debate?

All I see so far is bait.

We're ready for that substantive response White Wing.

 

[mnrivrat]

Well for me it realy doesn't make much difference if there is no debate .

I think the information posted by those who have replied to this thread may just be of significant value for those who wish to read the posts. Wether it be White Wing or someone just brousing the site.

A lot of good information contained in an easy to read text . I congradulate all who have done such a wonderful job expressing their opinions regarding 2nd amendment issues . It's easy to "debate" an issue when you have so much history and truth on your side. Sometimes its not so easy to express those facts in a way others understand.

Facts and documented history carry more weight than emotional arguments that rely on anti firearm propaganda and twisted statistics . ( my statistics professor started our first class with these words : " There are lies, then there are big lies, and then there are statistics" ) The meaning of which is that to many people use twisted data to arrive at a pre-concieved opinion and then try to pass the results off as fact.

I think many of you have expressed yourselfs well - My hats off to you !

 

[Baba Louie]

White Wing
While you're preparing your debate background and wording, getting it just so, if you're up to it, read every post (especially Trish's near bottom of page one) in James Castilla's thread "Im an Anti w/ questions"...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27373&highlight=Anti+with+questions

Warning tho'. Mr Castilla seems to have been inundated with our side of the coin's logic and, well, he hasn't stuck around to post and play on a daily basis. He might lurk, but he didn't join us or seem to switch sides. I only hope his head didn't explode from trying to comprehend and process the valuable info contained therein... some people seem to have difficulty accepting logic, facts and historical realities if it doesn't neatly fit into their assigned slot for emotional debate.

It's not really fair of me to do this to you, but I think that for any others who might enter into the fray, you (and they) should have at hand as much information as possible in order for you to be able to successfully debate and challenge what little fact, logic and historical reality our side of the fence have developed and filed away in our minds.

Because some day, I'm thinking that maybe, someone, such as yourself, might actually be able to muster the exact right logic, backed up with facts, presented with proper historical context and such, crafted with language that truly sways someone such as myself from being a pro to a con and makes me want to give up my toys, lay down my arms, rethink my entire belief system and accept the fact that evil is not evil and that bad guys will do me no harm should I only think positive, happy thoughts... I think some people call that state of being "heaven" or "paradise" and it usually comes after this mortal life is over, but I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time for that.

WyldOne tried and tried (for those of you who remember Denise) but resistance was futile... I could not be assimilated... and I'm OK with that.

So please prepare your thoughts on paper with care; look up HCI, MMM or Brady's campaign, read up on Janet Reno, Bill Clinton, Josh Sugarman, Pete Shield, Diane Feinstein, Ted Kennedy, Charles Schumer, UN Small Arms, NY Times editorials, LA Times editorials, Mayor Daley, PETA, et al... all the big hitters who seem to believe that your average Joe has zero need for firearms of any type.

I figure if you start now, you should have about nine or ten months of research to properly prepare said paper for presenatation. Then when you come over here and get to Arizona, let me know. One good range session will probably change a lot of your preconceived and newly researched perceptions

And that'd be a good thing, methinks.

One more thing... If you like to read historical fiction, purchase and read a copy of John Ross' tome "Unintended Consequences' from Amazon.com. Mr Ross does an outstanding job of blending fact with fiction concerning the American Gun Culture.

I look forward to your progress with a smile on my face and a song in my heart.

 

[ssr]

Here's my brief take.

The Second Ammendment is about the defense and long-term survival of the United States as a country. Armies can be wiped out and defeated or disarmed. anyone who thinks the United States military will be the most mighty military for the rest of mankinds history is sorely mistaken. One just has to look at history to see that. Look what is happening to our military in Iraq, the most advanced, powerful military in history. There is no way we can stay there, occupying, forever. Likewise, with a well-armed population, the United States could not be indefinitely occupied if our military was ever defeated. The Second Ammendment is there to ensure the long-term survival of our country.

Many other reasons to own or enjoy guns. Hunting, defense, target shooting, sports, clay games, collecting, etc, etc. With gun ownership also comes a sense of responsibility. As a human being in this world, I also understand I have certain rights, such as my right to be myself and defend myself and my family from others. for another to try to harm me or take from me is the worst offense one can commit, to deprive another human of their life or happiness. I should allow others to live their life in peace and happiness, and likewise I should be allowed to live in peace and happiness. If someone attempts to try to take that away from me, I have all rights, as a free person in this world, to stop them with all my power.

What you don't want is for the governments of the world to be the only ones with guns or weapons.

 

[M67]

ssr:

What you don't want is for the governments of the world to be the only ones with guns or weapons.

Amen.

White Wing, you do know that the number of guns and gun owners in Norway is comparable to that of the US? Slighty smaller, but not a huge difference.

If you want my opinion on why the right to own firearms isn't mentioned in our constitution, it is because they simply didn't think of it when the constitution was written. In America their government (King George) tried to take their guns away, and they didn't want that to happen again. In Norway that had never happened, on the contrary our laws at that time made it mandatory for people to own guns. I just don't think anyone imagined that "gun control" could ever become an issue.

Different history, different language, slightly different ways of doing things. It doesn't necessarily make one or the other better or worse, just different.

It's rather pointless for us non-Americans to discuss a particular amendment to their constitution. Their laws, their business. I can see no legitimate reason to restrict gun ownership among law abiding citizens (although it is restricted, both here and in the US). You may disagree. But the specific words on a piece of paper 3,000 miles away are no more our business than our laws are any of their business.

Farnham:

I grew up with guns, learned to shoot when I was about 5 on a Daisy Red Rider

RED Rider? You some sort of communist? Anyway, I received my first shooting lessons at the age of two, with an M1 carbine. Geography doesn't have a whole lot to do with it.

Baba Louie:

it appears that Finland and Norway are #1 & 2 in terms of gun ownership in Europe w/ Finland being #2 in the world

I think Finland and Norway are # 3 and 4 in the world, with the US in 2nd place. I read somewhere that the world's # 1 in gun ownership is Yemen. I still wouldn't want to live there, though. If the number of guns alone was a guarantee for freedom and liberty, Baghdad ought to have been a nice place too.

 

[Gus Dddysgrl]

I do remember seeing your last thread however I never had time to read it. Sorry I cannot come to you with a rebuttal of all your beliefs/opinions.

I do know you are looking for reasons to carry a gun.

To give you my reasons I must give you a little background.

I am a 21 year old female living on my own downtown a small borough(we're not big enough to be a city.) (side note-I am 5'5", and 130 some pounds. I'm fit and ... well... nicely proportioned. I say this to tell you I have on several occassions been well looked at in a not so nice way and have often feared for my safety. Guys will do a lot to get a good look at me and have even followed me. I would like to know that if something happened they would regret choosing me as a "weaker" woman to target)

I moved there a couple of months ago from an actual city. It was a small city, but it had a not so pleasant side to it. I lived on the border of this not so pleasant side. Many nights I would sleep through shootings and knivings and fights and gang stuff(some of this I actually witnessed). I saw many drug deals go down and once even saw a SWAT team drag a guy out of his house cause he had used a rifle for something which they later found on his roof. My dad has gone with the cops to ID people from shootings. (the funny thing was he made them wait since he was packing heat). I saw and lived through probably something similar to, but not as bad as you did.

Now I know that by carrying a gun I don't make myself fully protected. I do know that when I carry a gun I am more powerful. However prior to putting the gun on I put on a warrior/confidence/self-defense/awareness mindset.

You can avoid many of the bad situations by just being aware of where you are and your surroundings. I do not need a gun for self-defense, but I 'd rather be smarter and more strongly defended than any attacker who would want to harm me.

I may be cute, but if you end up on the other end of my gun your gun better go away and quickly.

I pobably have other reasons, but I don't know what else to say to you, but when I hear your arguements I will be sure to bring you what I believe that disagrees with you.

 

[Gus Dddysgrl]

I forgot to mention all my above reasons were for personal defense.

Another reason would be if the government were to try to take our rights away. We'd be able to defend ourselves and our loved ones. If someone would rally the masses against our country they sure wouldn't want to try to set foot on our land. There is enough of us who own and know how to use our guns and we will not be taken over.

And the best reason is it's FUN. I love slinging lead that other people think I can't handle, but usually end up with a sore hand anyways. The feeling you get when you are able to make a good grouping on some paper from 25-50 yards is great to. The training and practice has paid off. But like I said it's FUN!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Delmar]

We also like having guns because it is much for fun than pointing your finger and saying pow-pow-pow-pow-pow-pow-I got you first

 

[MeekandMild]

Farnham, your post jogged my aging memory regarding a History Channel discussion about Stalin's removal of Ukranians to Siberian death camps in the 1930's.

Basically some of the Ukranian leaders wanted independance from the USSR so Stalin decided the only way to prevent it was to remove their political base. He sent troops to embargo the area, cutting it off from food sources, then he had them remove the wheat harvest and burn what couldn't be taken out.

Although a good portion of the people starved there were still enough left to sent millions of slave laborers to Siberia. Average lifespan of a Siberian slave was just a few weeks but some did manage to survive to tell about it.

Point of this long rambling discussion is over a hundred thousand people wrote Stalin personal letters asking him to help them, saying they had been sent to Siberia by mistake and they were actually loyal Communists. They trusted him and trusted in the system to do right for them but the system changed in ways they couldn't anticipate nor plan for nor remediate.

The old Czarist system of governement, which the Communists inherited, treated the peasantry like cattle. The primary folks who owned firearms were the rich (and under the Communist government the Party members).