Reommend Home Defense for Elderly Couple w/Special Needs
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Derry 1946
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They live in a nice area and have a monitored alarm system. They're concerned about reports of break-ins, but not in their immediate vicinity. My suggestions are to get a dog (if large is unwieldy, get a small dog), get Life Alert (help is on the way at the push of a button), form a neighborhood watch organization (get to know the neighbors, look out for one another), get in touch with the local PD (responses will be easier/more focused if the PD are already acquainted with the callers). Put a very solid door in the bedroom. Get a bullhorn ($10 to $30 at Harbor Freight) and rehearse a plan of what to say to any intruder ("The police are on the way," or whatever Ayoob suggests). Put their neighbors on speed dial. As a LAST alternative, consider a medium-sized revolver with enough weight to avoid a lot of recoil. I have a 1905 HE 32-20 5" that is EASY to shoot, in a load they say was once used for medium-sized game. But any largish DA/SA revolver in a medium load (32, 28 sp), would probably work. It seems likely they will be together in the event of any intrusion; only one of them need operate the firearm, while the other operates the phone.
If none of this is sufficient, and they want to preserve more of their independence than a care facility provides, they might consider a gated community, if it's within their means.
I'll add my concurrence to the opinion that wasp spray is ill-advised as a home-defense tool. Even if they avoid federal and state conviction, even if they avoid indictment, the ramifications of the investigations alone (and possible civil suits, against which there is no defense) are extremely draining and expensive.
Good luck and godspeed.
Derry
If none of this is sufficient, and they want to preserve more of their independence than a care facility provides, they might consider a gated community, if it's within their means.
I'll add my concurrence to the opinion that wasp spray is ill-advised as a home-defense tool. Even if they avoid federal and state conviction, even if they avoid indictment, the ramifications of the investigations alone (and possible civil suits, against which there is no defense) are extremely draining and expensive.
Good luck and godspeed.
Derry
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Actually, we did try a single shot from the CZ-82 and it was too much to handle, aside from the fact she is unable to rack the slide on it.
We have talked about the Beretta Tomcat, it was in my original post. Didn't seem to get much of a reception here.
The dog is not an option. They had one for many years but it is gone now and they don't want to tdeal with another one. They are both active and get out of the house, or at least into the yard on a daily basis. They have looked at the retirement communities but are not ready for it yet.
Thanx.
We have talked about the Beretta Tomcat, it was in my original post. Didn't seem to get much of a reception here.
The dog is not an option. They had one for many years but it is gone now and they don't want to tdeal with another one. They are both active and get out of the house, or at least into the yard on a daily basis. They have looked at the retirement communities but are not ready for it yet.
Thanx.
I have a devil of a time loading a .357 lever rifle in any kind of hurry, and am not yet fifty years old. It is not so much the difficulty of the process itself, as the .357 Magnum cartridge being just small enough to be difficult to manipulate easily. I had a Mirokuchester chambered in .45 Colt, which was much handier to load, due to the larger cartridges, but it was too finicky of a feeder to consider for defensive purposes. My Mirokuchester and .357 Marlins are all gone now. If I reach for a rifle for HD, it will be a Mini-14.
Would the Beretta Cheetah be a consideration? .22 LR, high quality, DA/SA, with the option of Condition One, and accurate, though expensive.
I could not imagine life without dogs.
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230therapy
Member
One option may be a used S&W revolver in 38 Special from J&G Sales for $259 + shipping and transfer.
While we are staying gun fixated...I think a gun that allows for lots of dry firing to gain confidence and proficiency would be superior for safety as well as practicality. Learn the gun with minimal risk or arthritis pain and use live rounds when necessary.
Cards81fan
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I would say a 32 revolver if you can find one and they take to it, and a 22 revolver if you cannot.
Many people here seemed to have brushed over the extent of their arthritis that you described. If they mentioned not being able to rack the slide, I say all semi-autos are out. Even the tip-up ones, IMHO (you still tap/rack/bang a Tomcat on a malfunction, no?).
Many people mentioned carbines, and you could do okay with that, but a .410 would likely be too much to handle to shoot, and many carbines can get too far up there in weight for an elderly person to handle. Not to mention those often require more work to load and chamber rounds. Something like a Marlin Model 60 would be good, and you get better velocity and more rounds than a 22 pistol, if they can handle holding the weight of a rifle.
All that said, I really like the small revolver idea. Ideal, no but much better than being unarmed.
Many people here seemed to have brushed over the extent of their arthritis that you described. If they mentioned not being able to rack the slide, I say all semi-autos are out. Even the tip-up ones, IMHO (you still tap/rack/bang a Tomcat on a malfunction, no?).
Many people mentioned carbines, and you could do okay with that, but a .410 would likely be too much to handle to shoot, and many carbines can get too far up there in weight for an elderly person to handle. Not to mention those often require more work to load and chamber rounds. Something like a Marlin Model 60 would be good, and you get better velocity and more rounds than a 22 pistol, if they can handle holding the weight of a rifle.
All that said, I really like the small revolver idea. Ideal, no but much better than being unarmed.
zxcvbob
Member
Does anybody make a double-barrel "coach gun" in 20 ga?
Onward Allusion
Member
Heh, it only took 16 posts until the 12 ga shotty was brought up. 
Go for a broken in SA/DA revolver in .32 S&W Long or even a 22LR. Note - BROKEN IN... I personally like the H&R 732, but that's just me.
Go for a broken in SA/DA revolver in .32 S&W Long or even a 22LR. Note - BROKEN IN... I personally like the H&R 732, but that's just me.
zxcvbob
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That's why I said a 20 gauge, not a 12. A SxS is pretty foolproof, and a coach gun would have a short barrel.
Cards81fan
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A side by side, even in 20 gauge, would have pretty unwieldy recoil for the couple described in the OP.
Fred Fuller
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My mom at 80 was in better health than these folks seem to be, and even so she traded in her cut-down 20 gauge double for a Beretta CX-4 carbine in 9mm because she couldn't manage the recoil of the shotgun any longer.
I wouldn't think a shotgun was even in consideration for these folks. I'd rather be seeing a lot fewer gun-centric ideas too, but...
lpl
I wouldn't think a shotgun was even in consideration for these folks. I'd rather be seeing a lot fewer gun-centric ideas too, but...
lpl
zxcvbob
Member
Thank you, that's what I was trying to ask.
They ruled out a dog...
In this sort of situation, even the best solution under the circumstances is likely to none that good.
We have an elderly couple with a number of physical limitations. They also apparently have no prior, meaningful experience with firearms and, I suspect, no pre-existing personal defensive skills. And we really have no good information about their attitude or mindset.
I suspect that their options for active defense will be, I'm afraid, limited. If they really want a gun, a medium size revolver in a light caliber would seem to be indicated, along with a fair amount of practical familiarization to develop some basic level of proficiency. Or a pistol caliber carbine might be the answer.
A handgun is easier to maneuver in confined spaces, but a carbine will be easier to hit with. But unless they can actually develop some level of basic proficiency, a gun might not really be useful.
It may be that their best choice would be to concentrate on passive defenses: hardening the home and a good alarm system.
We have an elderly couple with a number of physical limitations. They also apparently have no prior, meaningful experience with firearms and, I suspect, no pre-existing personal defensive skills. And we really have no good information about their attitude or mindset.
I suspect that their options for active defense will be, I'm afraid, limited. If they really want a gun, a medium size revolver in a light caliber would seem to be indicated, along with a fair amount of practical familiarization to develop some basic level of proficiency. Or a pistol caliber carbine might be the answer.
A handgun is easier to maneuver in confined spaces, but a carbine will be easier to hit with. But unless they can actually develop some level of basic proficiency, a gun might not really be useful.
It may be that their best choice would be to concentrate on passive defenses: hardening the home and a good alarm system.
I dare say that none of us will be able to hit the nail on the head so proficiently as fiddletown just did. We seem to mostly be in agreement that a light to medium caliber revolver or a small pistol caliber carbine would be the best choice.
The drawback to using a carbine in home defense would be the confined spaces that might be encountered, and the drawback to the revolver would be the increased difficulty for accuracy, either way unless they're willing to put in a little training and familiarization time I fear that money would be better spent on an extra dead bolt and some rose bushes for the windows.
The drawback to using a carbine in home defense would be the confined spaces that might be encountered, and the drawback to the revolver would be the increased difficulty for accuracy, either way unless they're willing to put in a little training and familiarization time I fear that money would be better spent on an extra dead bolt and some rose bushes for the windows.
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FAS1
Member
.22 revolver worked just fine for this 53 year old woman. Lots of people die from .22's and if that's all she can handle just go with it along with the other appropriate security layers.
http://www.wsbtv.com/video/27874853/index.html
http://www.wsbtv.com/video/27874853/index.html
Carl Levitian
member
After reading all the posts, I can say they range from amusing to out and out ridiculous. Too many young men have no idea what happens when you get old.
I'm 70 years of age, and my wife is 67. I have ostio arthritis from a life of turning wrenches, and some other handicaps from active duty injuries while in the army. The VA has me rated at 50% disabled. My wife has rheumatoid arthritis that runs in her family. Her mother was very affected by it, as is her sister. With meds, it's somewhat under control, but she has good days and bad.
Neither of us can deal with heavy recoil. We both are life long shooters, and we met on a public pistol range in 1970. So both of us are very familiar with guns. But the last several years we've shot nothing but .22's. I and Karen both shoot Smith and wesson revolvers, as it's easy to load and shoot. No slide to deal with, and if a dud round comes up, just pull the trigger again. A S&W 617 has almost zero recoil, and even Karen's little 317 is managable. There are some older H&R revolvers hidden around the house that gives us 9 shots apiece to deal with whatever. We're both retired, so we're almost always together, and have over the years got some plans of action down pat. With the kids grown and gone, it gets easier as we don't have to worry about the kids and line of fire.
Senior citizens can not deal with shotguns, the wonder tactical auto of the month, or any other macho young mans guns. Time robs you of most of what you are as you age, and most of you are in for a shock in about 30 or 40 years, of what you can't deal with anymore. Old injuries act up, and there's a downhill trend that can be slowed, but not stopped.
These people the OP is talking about need to get a few used but good condition H&R revolvers, practice, and maybe even a couple of .22 rifles like Marlin 60's or Ruger 10/22's, and practice working together as a team. Two seniors, a .22 rifle each and a revolver each, will be a tough nut to crack if they work it right. It's they're home, they know the layout, and they need to practice holding a hallway while one calls 911. The heck with the neighbors on speed dial, make it 911. Again, both need to be on the same page, in the same paragraph, and same line. Unless they've somehow angered a Colombian drug lord or the local Hells Angles, they don't have to be able to repel an armed invasion. Some well used .22's will do well if they have a plan, and rehearse it. A Ruger 10/22 and a 9 shot H&R apiece, will give them 19 rounds each without reloading.
In any real world senerio, that should be more than enough.
I'm 70 years of age, and my wife is 67. I have ostio arthritis from a life of turning wrenches, and some other handicaps from active duty injuries while in the army. The VA has me rated at 50% disabled. My wife has rheumatoid arthritis that runs in her family. Her mother was very affected by it, as is her sister. With meds, it's somewhat under control, but she has good days and bad.
Neither of us can deal with heavy recoil. We both are life long shooters, and we met on a public pistol range in 1970. So both of us are very familiar with guns. But the last several years we've shot nothing but .22's. I and Karen both shoot Smith and wesson revolvers, as it's easy to load and shoot. No slide to deal with, and if a dud round comes up, just pull the trigger again. A S&W 617 has almost zero recoil, and even Karen's little 317 is managable. There are some older H&R revolvers hidden around the house that gives us 9 shots apiece to deal with whatever. We're both retired, so we're almost always together, and have over the years got some plans of action down pat. With the kids grown and gone, it gets easier as we don't have to worry about the kids and line of fire.
Senior citizens can not deal with shotguns, the wonder tactical auto of the month, or any other macho young mans guns. Time robs you of most of what you are as you age, and most of you are in for a shock in about 30 or 40 years, of what you can't deal with anymore. Old injuries act up, and there's a downhill trend that can be slowed, but not stopped.
These people the OP is talking about need to get a few used but good condition H&R revolvers, practice, and maybe even a couple of .22 rifles like Marlin 60's or Ruger 10/22's, and practice working together as a team. Two seniors, a .22 rifle each and a revolver each, will be a tough nut to crack if they work it right. It's they're home, they know the layout, and they need to practice holding a hallway while one calls 911. The heck with the neighbors on speed dial, make it 911. Again, both need to be on the same page, in the same paragraph, and same line. Unless they've somehow angered a Colombian drug lord or the local Hells Angles, they don't have to be able to repel an armed invasion. Some well used .22's will do well if they have a plan, and rehearse it. A Ruger 10/22 and a 9 shot H&R apiece, will give them 19 rounds each without reloading.
In any real world senerio, that should be more than enough.
I agree with passive systems such as alarms and dogs. I would not advise lever or pump actions, semi auto anything, or get them anything but something with the anything but the simplest manual of arms.
Carl's idea of a 617 S&W is most likely the only option if they need a firearm within the parameters you describe. Simple manual of arms, zero recoil, easy to hit with, and 10 rds. You already said she did well with a revolver.
I wouldn't worry about speed reloading. Anything faster to reload brings with it complexities you want to avoid. Along with a layered defense a firearm is the last thing.
Carl's idea of a 617 S&W is most likely the only option if they need a firearm within the parameters you describe. Simple manual of arms, zero recoil, easy to hit with, and 10 rds. You already said she did well with a revolver.
I wouldn't worry about speed reloading. Anything faster to reload brings with it complexities you want to avoid. Along with a layered defense a firearm is the last thing.
Onward Allusion
Member
Carl - AMEN to that!!!
Thanks again for the great responses. I had pretty much discounted anything shotgun. I did consider the .410 Saiga but gave up on that. If we do go with a firearm at this point it appears to be a pistol caliber carbine, probably the Hi-point because of the pricing.
I am still working with them on all of the other items they need to be aware of. I'm working on them to take at least an NRA basic haddgun course and then the PPITH course.
I am still working with them on all of the other items they need to be aware of. I'm working on them to take at least an NRA basic haddgun course and then the PPITH course.
thesecond
Member
Wired camera (connects via RCA to TV), at the very least, for the door.
Reinforced door (many solutions via 'search', from cheap to expensive).
No need to be anywhere in front of the entry to have a first look.
Lighting. Floods, at the least, at the entry.
Electric-powered horn. Definitely loud enough to alert good neighbors.
Transmitter (and on/off receivers) for the lights and horn. (about the size of a remote carkey.)
Transceiver, if using multiple cameras, for multiple views around the home.
Reasonably high-lumen output flashlight (150 lumen minimum?).
The basic gear above will cost you no more than $200 (the flashlight probably will be the single most expensive item).
Local precinct/substation on speed-dial for the cellular (may be an alternative, faster, response compared to 911).
PPITH class is a good idea, to address/round out discussion of certain other areas of SD/HD.
Further down the priority list .... the guns
I liked the idea of a pair of Marlin 60s. 30 rounds and change between the 2, very light, tube-fed, simple controls, familiar rifle feel, fair price for a .22lr.
Or, 9mm carbine (Keltec Sub2000 and Hi-point are the least expensive).
Beretta 21A (bobcat), and CCI .22lr. DA/SA, tip-up barrel (does not need to be racked, but you do need the finger strength to fire the first DA shot). Heavy enough, wide grip-base for a small gun, for minimal felt recoil.
Small .22s revolvers (coil springs) may require a little more hand/fingerstrength in DA-mode (even to cock the gun for SA mode), a spring kit, and are just going to be a more expensive option.
Long-barreled, larger framed, SA .22lr/22mag revolvers might be an option. Heritage, H & R, Ruger Single Six/Bearcat/etc. More reasonable price, less hand/fingerstrength required to get to SA-mode, than for the j-frame size revolvers.
NAA Earl, for a longer-barreled, small frame SA .22lr or .22mag.
Good luck, stay safe.
Reinforced door (many solutions via 'search', from cheap to expensive).
No need to be anywhere in front of the entry to have a first look.
Lighting. Floods, at the least, at the entry.
Electric-powered horn. Definitely loud enough to alert good neighbors.
Transmitter (and on/off receivers) for the lights and horn. (about the size of a remote carkey.)
Transceiver, if using multiple cameras, for multiple views around the home.
Reasonably high-lumen output flashlight (150 lumen minimum?).
The basic gear above will cost you no more than $200 (the flashlight probably will be the single most expensive item).
Local precinct/substation on speed-dial for the cellular (may be an alternative, faster, response compared to 911).
PPITH class is a good idea, to address/round out discussion of certain other areas of SD/HD.
Further down the priority list .... the guns
I liked the idea of a pair of Marlin 60s. 30 rounds and change between the 2, very light, tube-fed, simple controls, familiar rifle feel, fair price for a .22lr.
Or, 9mm carbine (Keltec Sub2000 and Hi-point are the least expensive).
Beretta 21A (bobcat), and CCI .22lr. DA/SA, tip-up barrel (does not need to be racked, but you do need the finger strength to fire the first DA shot). Heavy enough, wide grip-base for a small gun, for minimal felt recoil.
Small .22s revolvers (coil springs) may require a little more hand/fingerstrength in DA-mode (even to cock the gun for SA mode), a spring kit, and are just going to be a more expensive option.
Long-barreled, larger framed, SA .22lr/22mag revolvers might be an option. Heritage, H & R, Ruger Single Six/Bearcat/etc. More reasonable price, less hand/fingerstrength required to get to SA-mode, than for the j-frame size revolvers.
NAA Earl, for a longer-barreled, small frame SA .22lr or .22mag.
Good luck, stay safe.
I thought I'd throw in a few ideas having been around some elderly folks for a while, and getting there myself. I think a semi auto is out of the question, racking a slide, stuffing a mag, pushing stiff mag release buttons are really out of the question for arthritic hands. Consider also the mechanical complexity whether real or perceived by the user. Consider also the need generally speaking of the semi auto to have a firm and consistent grip for reliable cycling. I really suspect you may be limited to revolver for no other reason than the simple and understandable operation by a user with no previous experience. I know a .22 has been mentioned but I just wonder if something moderately heavy like a GP100 with 38 wadcutters would be low enough in recoil. While I know that many have died from .22 wounds, I doubt its ability to stop a fight. The reason also that I mention the Ruger brand of revolver is that the quasi button like cylinder release is probably the most doable of revolvers with arthritic hands.I realize too that hand strength may rule out a DA trigger pull. Best of luck helping these folks out.
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