Repeal of the 2nd amendment

[BluesBear]

Glad it'snot just me

I agree with you Cracked Butt

telewinz
Time to close this thread. You may have the last rant!

Then 3 more posts?




Reminds me of high school kids on the phone;

Good Bye
Bye,
Bye,
Yes bye,
hang up now
OK
Hang up
you hang up first
no you hang up first
no you
etc
etc

 

[carp killer]

Hell, gun owners, in the guise of the NRA, are the largest and most effective gun banning organization in the country.

Good point. Nothing burns me more than some ignorant "duck hunter/cowboy shooter" who questions me on the need to own one of those "black guns".

Also comforting is that whenever they ban a few more guns, they first propose banning a lot more guns... so that you can be comfortable in the fact that they only banned a few guns this time, and not all of them.

That is a common negotiation trick. You always ask for more than you really want in the beginning. Just keep on chipping away until you reach your ultimate goal. Ask the Brits how it turned out for them.

How many of you would support a complete repeal of the 1868 and NFA? Hopefully all of you... but you're in the minority among gun owners in the US.

I know.

 

[Bill St. Clair]

That is a common negotiation trick. You always ask for more than you really want in the beginning. Just keep on chipping away until you reach your ultimate goal. Ask the Brits how it turned out for them.

This is why I maintain L. Neil Smith's Atlanta Declaration (below). It actually is what I want, and is the correct interpretation of the second amendment, but nowadays even many folks who believe in the the right to keep and bear arms won't go this far. It's good to remind them, often, that their alleged pro-gun position is already a compromise.

Every man, woman, and responsible child has an unalienable individual, civil, Constitutional, and human right to obtain, own, and carry, openly or concealed, any weapon -- rifle, shotgun, handgun, machinegun, anything -- any time, any place, without asking anyone's permission.

 

[Sam Adams]

Let's look at a few facts:

There are something like 250 million guns in this country (that the gov't will admit to knowing about) owned by 80 million + people.

Modern semi-autos have been around for over 100 years. Between domestic production directly for civilians, war surplus sales and foreign imports, there have to be at least 50 million semi-auto rifles and probably another 75 million semi-auto handguns. That's half of all guns, owned by at least 25-30 million people.

Even bolt-action guns can be very effective killing tools. They generally come into their own at long range, where the use of a single-shot gun is not so much of a disadvantage, simply because the target and his/her entourage won't know where the shot came from. There are probably at least 25 million bolt action rifles in the country.

The number of people who could be used to "round up" guns is limited to the local police, federal police (FBI, BATF, DEA, Postal Inspectors, etc.), national guard and armed forces. Most of the latter are needed to defend the country, and most of the middle group are similarly tasked when mobilized. The vast majority of local police and federal police on duty and "on the streets" at any given point in time is substantially less than 50% of the total force, and most of them are also needed to do the jobs that they were ostensibly hired to do (i.e. protection against real criminals, terrorists, drug dealers, etc.). Maybe, maybe you will have 250,000-500,000 out there collecting guns.

What will be facing this force? If 25 million people own semi-autos (probably a low figure), and only 1% of 1% choose to actively resist (a figure that I believe to be absurdly low), that means that means 2,500 people nationwide. They'd likely be the best armed, best trained and most motivated people out there, each likely orders of magnitude more dangerous than the Beltway "snipers" that tied up over 10,000 police for several weeks. If 2 morons could kill 12, what could 2,500 of the best do? My own take on this is that these 2,500 could easily take out 10 times their number over a period of weeks, and that they would target the brains and heart of their opponents - which is to say the political leadership. Are there 25,000 politicians willing to literally put their lives, or those of their families, on the line to take away the property of others nakedly and with the most brutal methods (especially when they can, through corruption, become very wealthy at little risk to their physical safety)? I don't think so.

And what happens to the general willingness of people to inform on their "friends," neighbors and relatives for the princely sum of $1,500 when a few dozen or hundred such people (and their families) are found burned to death or full of bullet holes across the country? I know that such a "downside" to informing would deter me.

Further, I think that the 1% of 1% figure is dreadfully low, just as the 250,000 to 500,000 gun-grabbing cops, NG, etc. is way too high. In the Revolution, we had 1/3 of the population sympathetic to The Cause, though only about 3% actually took up arms against the "legitimate" government of the time, which also happened to be the most powerful nation on Earth. If we are only 10% as brave per capita as the Founding Generation, then 3 1/3% of the population would be sympathizers (roughly 10 million people) and 0.3% would take up arms (roughly 1 million, just a bit more than the 2,500 I postulated). Now we're in a different ballgame. Now the country will be ungovernable, the economy would collapse, food and fuel would cease to be transported to the big cities from the interior of the country , etc. Now the pols ordering such an action would have that many more bullseyes on their bodies and would have that much more pressure to end it by backing off. Many would, I am sure, take a hint and skulk away to hide under some rock, in the hopes of "coming back" some day - if they can, quite literally, survive. And isn't that really the point of the 2nd Amendment?

No, there was no revolt after the '34 NFA or the '68 GCA, or Brady or the AWB - but sometime in the future the line WILL be crossed by the pols for at least several thousand well-armed, intelligent, motivated people. I don't advocate any such actions as discussed here, but I think them inevitable. I would hope that anyone interested in banning guns would take a long, hard, realistic look at what a substantial minority of people could do to this country (and to that part of the political class motivated by the same anti-Liberty sentiments as they are).

 

[telewinz]

"No, there was no revolt after the '34 NFA or the '68 GCA, or Brady or the AWB - but sometime in the future the line WILL be crossed by the pols for at least several thousand well-armed, intelligent, motivated people."

History has shown that THE LINE must be invisible. People had much more freedom in '34 than now and yet they STILL chose to do nothing, history will continue to repeat itself. The very few that choose to resist the law will be jailed or killed, for the rest of us life will continue as normal. Why do you continue to assume that most gunowners support your radical ideas?

"well-armed, intelligent, motivated people." those are the same people that make and support "the system", they have too much responsibility and have earned too much material wealth to be willing to throw it all away on some romantic/idealistic and suicidal venture.

 

[Carlos Cabeza]

Well put Mr. Adams.

have earned too much material wealth to be willing to throw it all away

Material possessions do not the man make ! Though I'm sure many men are deluded into thinking this.

 

[Bill St. Clair]

telewinz:

You would do well to re-read the Declaration of Independence, the relevant part of which I have quoted below from this National Archives page. It explains quite well why we have not yet responded violently to repressive and blatantly unconstitutional, hence null and void, gun "laws". The long train of abuses in our case has not yet become insufferable.

Our government had best learn from history, however. It was an attempt to confiscate guns that caused the shot heard round the world. A similar attempt today will likely evoke a similar response.

I'm with you and likely everyone else on this board in the hope that we can retain our inalienable rights without bloodshed. I greatly prefer the soap box and the ballot box to the cartridge box. But I will not turn in my guns, and if they come to my house to take them, they will have to take the ammo first. All ammo leaves my possession at between 875 and 3240 feet per second (paraphrasing a Leslie E. Starks quote from the Armed Females of America's quotes page).

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

 

[keederdag]

I really dont see the situation descibed happening (with respect Tele). I think we will see a gradual degredation of our 2-A rights. Kinda like we've been see'ing all along. For Instance. Gov:"Ok, you can keep the ones you have, but register them, and no new ones". Gov: "Ok let's have an amnesty". Gov.:"ok kiddies, remember that o'l nasty gun Dad left you, we'll we will pay you to turn it in, no it's ok, keep those others, just this one". Gov."Ok great grand-kiddies, We know you have these nasty, o'l dangeouse thingy's, so we wana buy em from you". Gov: " hey how's about another amnesty to turn em in Ok, no questions asked". Gov: " now see how easy that was, Dont worry we are here to take care of you"...............................

 

[telewinz]

keederdag

I don't think their is a plan as such but by and large the course you chart seems to be fairly reasonable IF nothing major happens like the Kennedy/King killing and Reagan/ Brady shootings which I fear will happen.
Other than that we will slowly have to "compromise" away the fairly "loose" interpetation of the Second Amendment we are now enjoying. Our civilization/culture is outgrowing the need for armed cowboys roaming our streets, that "right" is increasingly being viewed as a liability by main stream America.

 

[keederdag]

I agree. I think we have more to fear from the Kid's watching MTV all day/night, than we do from bad legislation. They are being mainstreamed into thinking guns are bad. With them it's just a gut reaction. I think it's a war we will loose some day, I just hope I dont see it. But I'm gonna fight like hell to do my part, while we still have it!

 

[telewinz]

Not to beat it to death but we will lose the "useful" interpetation of the Second Amendment because of a lack of interest. The past and current pro-gun comments on the Second amendment are like grand-pa talking about his service record during WWII, over and over again. After a while people hear but they just don't listen, we will fade away with a whimper not a bang.

 

[keederdag]

Sobbin here, but agree'in

 

[Don Galt]

I was checking up on that guy running for governor against Ahnald today-- Tom McClinton.

In one of his articles he delineated the political spectrum quite succinctly. On one side, you have the libertarian line of thought: Rights are god given. On the other hand, you have the telewiz/marxist line of thought: Rights are granted by government.

Support for the constitution is not "Radical" telewiz, it's fundamental to the idea of human rights. I can think of no third view of the world-- all political factions fall into the spectrum between those who endorse human rights, and those who endorse slavery.

The idea that you need the government to protect you from corporations is absurd. Corporations interaction with people are all consentual-- either they are consentually employed, consentual stockholders or consentual customers. You don't like the company, you can simply cease your relationship with them.

On the other hand, governments' interactions with its subjects are non-consentual. The government enacts the legislation the elites decide they want-- usually for their benefit-- and you have no choice. Hell, even the ballot box is a pale fraud of "choice" as the government decides which candidates get to run.

Americans laughed at Iraq when they only had Saddam Hussien to choose from in their elections, never realizing the fact that we get to choose between two essentially identical socialists is not an improvement. We have merely the illusion of freedom.

You can abdicate your responsibiltiy and say that you will let the government protect you and that you don't need guns... that's your choice telewiz. But when you say that everyone else must be a subject, and doesn't have the right to self defense, then you are standing in opposition to human rights. And to the constitution and the american way.

Yes, many americans are ignorant. Ignorance, however is a choice.

 

[Tag]

bullets first

 

[Tag]

I wouldn't worry about liberals "mainstreaming" guns out of our culture. There will alwase be those who refuse to be brainwashed.

 

[telewinz]

Don Galt

Life is not that simple and neither is the Constitution. Two lines of thought, slavery or god given rights. Now that might sound great as a speech to a bunch of third graders or if you are preaching to the choir but it won't get you squat among the voters. Yes there is a great deal of ignorance in America but our system works well at and weeding out the dreamers, fools and misfits. They are kept in positions where for the most part they can only harm themselves and not the public as a whole.

Funny, but these are the same people that most often have to depend on the government to care for them later in life.

Tag....

Do you mean brainwashed or educated?

 

[Gordon Fink]

Telewinz is wrong about the uselessness of resistance, if only because there won’t be much of any. As such, though, the Second Amendment will never be repealed.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=435836#post435836

St. Gunner’s words also bear repeating.

The fact is if it turns to violence we all lose, simply because this country will not be able to undergo that fracture. It will become a wound impossible to heal. As Police officers quit in protest, political leaders die for their cause, and patriots who stood their ground are buried by familes who don’t understand why they felt the need. A situation of such proportions has no remedy, all that is left at the end is to try to pick up the pieces and try again.…

~G. Fink

 

[telewinz]

Gordon Fink...

"The fact is if it turns to violence we all lose, simply because this country will not be able to undergo that fracture. It will become a wound impossible to heal. As Police officers quit in protest, political leaders die for their cause, and patriots who stood their ground are buried by familes who don’t understand why they felt the need. A situation of such proportions has no remedy, all that is left at the end is to try to pick up the pieces and try again.…"

As I said, history repeats itself, it was called the Civil War and we healed just fine. If their is another civil war (unlikely) it won't be over the "fine print" of the 2nd amendment. The country is and will continue to do just fine, the same cannot be said for the unstable, radical right.

 

[Moparmike]

Sorry to jump on the telewinz bashing bandwagon, but I have to say this.

Originally posted by telewinz:
Yes there is a great deal of ignorance in America but our system works well at and weeding out the dreamers, fools and misfits. They are kept in positions where for the most part they can only harm themselves and not the public as a whole.

Some of those dreamers, fools, and misfits built this very nation and fought for the rights you would gladly give up and freely without government interference desecrate. Desecrate while the desecrating is good. The opprotunity wont last forever.

Damned well said Sam and Don.

I dont know when people will get tired of having their rights trampled day in and day out, but when they do there will be political hell to pay. Even if 10% get tired of it and are ready to act, they will act swiftly. I pray that I can help them in their cause. I realize that war is an ugly thing, but I am damned tired of getting sh|t on by the people who recieve my cash and decide my fate in one way or the other.

 

[Thumper]

In my experience, it's those with their arms in the air hollering Revolution that wont even write a simple letter to their congressman.

80 million gun owners and most cant even be bothered to vote. You expect armed revolt?

Americans are mostly fat, happy and live well. That ain't a recipe for a revolution.

Tam made a good point once: I paraphrase-Those of us who've actually seen tyranny up close find teenage American kids screaming "Revolution" a little amusing.

Hastening to add, that last bit looked like it was aimed at you moparmike...it wasn't. I understand your frustration.

 

[St. Gunner]

As I said, history repeats itself, it was called the Civil War and we healed just fine.

It won't heal, we have to many outside forces that want to see us fail. After the civil war, the only viable option to take over America was to come by ship, land and move inland, in which case both sides would have driven them into the sea. Enter today, the numbers of folks already on American soil, the advent of airplanes, faster ships, and assorted other weapons. If the focus is at home and it would have to be, what is going to happen next. I'm sure China would love to gain some natural resources.

Your interpretation of healed just fine and mine are vastly different, for the most part the South is still upset about the loss of choice, about personal freedoms.

----------------------------------------------------------------

On another point everyone has a crossover point, slow boiled or fast boiled. You always reach a defining moment where you realize that the only option left is to fight. Even liberal pants pissers can be persueded to fight if and when they realize they have no other option. I think the shrinks call it survival instinct. You probably witnessed it on the playgrounds of your youth, some kids where bullied once and they put an end to it, some kids wet their pants and cried to the teachers for weeks on end as some smuck stole their lunch money until one day when nobody was around and they where cornered they let fly.

I'm pretty easy going, you've called me an ape, insinuated all sorts of things, i've let em slide and not said much. But if we where faced off and you encroached on me, if you waved stuff in my face, crossed a verbal or physical threshold, i'd put you on the ground and feel no remorse. If you came at me with some weapon, i'd put you in a bag and feel no remorse. That is what a human being is, a creature that has fears and defenses for those fears.

You apparently have not evolved enough to realize that relying on others to protect you from your fears does only one thing, it leaves you vulnerable to their actions and conditions. You allow them to set the rules, you allow them to dictate your moral code, that is fine for the present, but the problem with people like you is in the bargain you are willing to give up the right to resist future infringements you may not wish to endure. Do you pay for groceries a farmer has not yet delivered? Do you pay the neighbor kid to mow the grass before he does it? Do you pay interest to the bank before you ask for a loan? Then why would you give up the only option you have, the only tool at your disposal when push comes to shove, to a government that has proven time and again it can't be trusted? I'd rather pre-pay the farmer, because at least I know he'll make an honest effort to do what is right.

People like you scare me, because you are so gullible you'll fall for anything with a government seal. But even pants pissers have a threshold for tyranny, as much as they hate to admit it.

If you won't kill to protect the one means you have to defend your loved ones against oppression, then you aren't worth much to us or your loved ones, in fact you are a simple liability to those who care about you most. What do you tell your wife or daughter as some thug with a GED and a government badge is raping them, beating them, or something worse?

Our civilization/culture is outgrowing the need for armed cowboys roaming our streets, that "right" is increasingly being viewed as a liability by main stream America.

How touching, will you have it etched on their tombstone?

People like you simply amaze me and make me think Darwins survival of the fittest was hoax. Telewinz galloping across the Savanna being pursued by a mob of hungry Hyenna, he runs up to the Lion and screams, "You are King of the Jungle don't let them eat me." So the lion eats him instead. A Very touching moral to your political strategy story, maybe i'll write a childrens book along the line, hopefully your kids can pick it up and read it.

Momma always said their would be people like this to explain things to them, my daddy said to beat some sense into them, my grandpa said to tie a brick around their neck and throw em in a river they where beyond hope. Somedays I am at a loss as to which one was right.:banghead: :banghead:

 

[St. Gunner]

The majority of the people who inhabit this country have spoken their minds by voting yet because you disagree with them, you ignore and then damn them for not agreeing with YOUR interpetation of the 2nd amendment.

Over 75% of the people on this board who took your survey think your POV is wrong, I would guesstimate that more than 60% think your name calling, ranting, and unruly behaviour is uncalled for. So would it then be right and feasible for Tamara or another mod to ban you since most of us agree you are pest and a menace to the voice of freedom? According to the loose interpretation of the 1st amendment you liberals adhere to, you may just have to give some up, afterall in todays society we are sick of 1st amendment cowboys peddling porn at bookstores who sell childrens books and other issues you pants pissing fascist expect us to adhere to.

The problem with you people is you attempt to say you are liberals, which historically would mean open to all things. You are simple fascist, you want to destroy everything you are scared of, disagree with, or you see as a threat to your power. Well I am a threat to your power, live with it, just like we do your fascist drivel.

I mean after all according to you civil rights are up to a majority vote, I bet you are one of those weenies who call this place a "Democracy." It is your proverbial fascist fantasy to see it as such, so that you can muster 51% of the vote and rule it. But alias those old dead white guys you seem to hate so much, gave us right wing whacko marginally intelligent nut jobs the paper that says we have an inalienable right, to put a bullet between your eyes if things get to the point you try to rob us of our rights. It is our undeniable gift for generosity and love of our fellow man that most of the anti-liberty fascists in Washington still draw breath. So why attempt to make us deny that love and generosity?

If you want to talk about gun violence, why don't all you bleeding heart fascists take all the prisoners you turn loose into your homes and keep em off the street? Why is it you complain about crime, but instead of punishing criminals, you punish the law abiding? I'm totally convinced after 130+ hrs of liberal education that you people want to disarm us, so we can't kill the sobs that are genetically programmed to hurt people, because it isn't their fault. If you sobs had one care in the world about "Saving one Child" you'd kill every pedaphile in existance, instead of giving them a special section at the bookstore. If you gave a crap about cutting crime, you'd implement a national CCL, and watch crime drop nationwide. But instead you stand content to attempt to lead our lives for us, well I won't be controlled and regulated by anyone I don't respect, to attempt to force me will end in only one way, the same way it did for bullies who attempted to steal my lunch money, with violence. It is the fascists choice, they can live happily with what they today hold, or they can push me and others and some of you can die. The choice is at this time up to you, just remember that if you make the wrong one it may not be possible to turn back the clock to a kinder gentler time.

So thank your lucky stars that we don't view inalienable rights the same way you do, or you'd be gone from here. Maybe it is time for you to do some soul searching.

 

[Al Norris]

Earlier, telewinz wrote:
I ENLISTED (draft #362) in the military (when it wasn't popular to do so) and served for over 6 years, so please don't presume to lecture me on patriotism.

I enlisted at 17 for 4 years. Spent 18 months in SE Asia along with a lot of other good Marines.

So I'll presume to lecture you.

You may think you know what the Constitution says, but it's a sure bet that you don't understand the reasonings or the minds of the founders... Else you wouldn't be spewing forth the socialst crap you've been subjecting us all to.

Patriotism is not subjecting oneself to every law and whim of the government. Patriotism is standing up for what's right and decent and good about America, regardless of what others may think about you or even regardless of what they might do to you. A Patriot recognizes the difference between the government and America.

A Patriot recognizes the inherent good in the People and the inherent evil in all governments. And a Patriot will not waste their lives for something that gains nothing.

When you gave your oath to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, you were never told your oath was fullfilled simply because you are no longer in active service to this country. That oath is binding until you die.

 

[St. Gunner]

Al Norris,

Amen and thank-you for all you did and are continuing to do for this country. I say thanks everyday for the things men like you allowed me to keep and have. I'll try to do honor to the sacrifices you made for me.

 

[Baba Louie]

Attack the argument, not the man.

When the American Colonists revolted against the King's crown the majority did not want to risk losing all they had worked for. A few however, knew that in signing the Declaration, they were signing their lives away to a cause bigger than their mere lives.

That's the cause I champion. The cause worthy of defending. Call it anarchy, call it a belief in "pre-ordained rights" that no government can take away, even if legislated into extinction. It was born in the 1770's on this hemisphere and it's dream will live on long after I cease to breathe and walk and enjoy shooting my firearms or shooting the breeze on some internet board.

(I hope and pray)

How to stop the Oligarchy and corporate masters? For me, besides spirited debate on Internet boards and voting at the election polls when allowed, it boils down to Ownership of a device that can stop those persons who feel morally empowered (by a majority vote?) to decide and dictate every facet of my life.

Adios