Reservist depressed. Family calls police for help.

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okay, so the "extra details" are so inconsequential in determining if the response was appropriate that we need to nitpick them? they are totally inconsequential, so inconsequential that if they went the way you describe or how i describe, the police were warranted in their actions regardless of whichever is true. i don't see the point in nitpicking this issue.

as far as the anti-LE sentiment, it was here before i registered as a THR member and it will be here long after i decide i've had enough of reading the anti-LE garbage on THR.

i personally don't care if anyone accepts my ideals or not. if i did i'd be posting anti-LE stuff on here like alot of others do. im not one to care if someone agrees with me or not. i just think it is very ignorant of a person to judge the actions of LE when they don't have any sort of experience or training to make themselves a credible source of criticism.

there are plenty of people on THR that are anti-LE and especially anti-SWAT. that has been evidenced in alot of threads on this webpage.

the actions taken by the police in this matter were appropriate from what i've seen, regardless if it unfolded your way or mine. really...does it make a difference? if it happened your way would you have said that they were not justified? probably not.
 
Ok I can understand not wanting to talk to the cops, but shooting at them? I don't think anyone can seriously suggest that if you shoot at someone, police officer or not, who is not directly threatening you, you are not in for a world of problems. He could have handled this with a simple, "No officer I am fine, thanks for checking on me, I'll give my sister a call right now." Had he said that we wouldn't even be discussing this.
 
hang out a few hours and let him cool off?

De-escalate? back off? if he's alone the only person he could hurt is himself.
Why couldn't they have just cooled off the situation by simply waiting a few more hours?
Ask him if he wanted pizza? ciggs? get a family member to talk to him?

The press hates the war, hates vets, hates gun owners, dislikes the police
They would do anything they can to paint this picture as "First Blood"

They hate the idea that a Vet can have his very own guns in his own home.

As far as going back to the sandbox, I don't blame him a bit, when you
have to fight a politically correct war , you can not win.
 
It sounds pretty reasonable, a great explanation of why you don't want the government to 'help'. Gov't just isn't good at helping, friends and family are.


One question, though, is about the actual shooting:

MD State Police Col Tim Hutchins- "At about 12:50 PM (26 Dec) Tuesday, Dean tried to exit his house. At the same time a peacekeeping vehicle approached the front of the home to deliver tear gas. Mr. Dean came to the doorway, had a weapon in his hand, and began to raise that weapon, at which time the state trooper that was functioning in a counter sniper position fired one shot and Mr. Dean fell. Had the sniper (state) not taken the shot, the lives of many would have been in severe danger."

I think the type of weapon is important. I know, it's always wrong to point a firearm, any firearm, at police - that's not being disputed. But it's an exceptional circumstance, so it's worth asking if the weapon he held would give a reasonable person in a heavily armored vehicle reason to fear for their safety.

Anyone know where to draw the line? That's a confusing grey area, where you're in an armored vehicle, of course you're going to be afraid of a firearm pointed at you, but is it reasonable fear? Would a rifle be more reasonable than a pistol?

That would be a great debate topic, lots of angles!
 
From the article it would seem that this is a bit of an over reaction. Military has counseling. I dont know how great it is but its there.

As for the weapon, what was it? And COULD it be that you FREAKED out a DEPRESSED person with surrounding their home with SWAT units? Hmm...possibly...yeah great job guys couldnt have just sent a uniformed officer to the door to say "hey buddy hows life? Family was worried about you." Or it does not seem from the article the family did enough they just decided to call police cause they knew he was armed.
 
From the article it would seem that this is a bit of an over reaction. Military has counseling. I dont know how great it is but its there.

Overreaction on Dean's part and or his family in contacting to the police right?

Because it is no secret when you shoot at cops they are gonna shoot back. The cops did their job in the case, I mean his own family called the police on him and reported that he was armed and was a threat. Maybe they thought that he would be smart enough to lay his firearms down once the police showed up, I guess they underestimated his determination.

Trust me alot of these cops involved were in the service and they were sympathetic to what the guy was dealing with, but they drew the line and truely used deadly force as a last resort.

As for the weapon, what was it? And COULD it be that you FREAKED out a DEPRESSED person with surrounding their home with SWAT units? Hmm...possibly...yeah great job guys couldnt have just sent a uniformed officer to the door to say "hey buddy hows life? Family was worried about you." Or it does not seem from the article the family did enough they just decided to call police cause they knew he was armed.

Dude the intial patrol cops were fired upon before the SWAT teams came in.
 
What does not make sense to me is why you send a SWAT team? Why not send a uniformed patrol to the house to see whats going on?

Did you read the thread I communicated this on the previous page?
 
Maybe the Army let this guy down? He obviously went through a very tramatic situation with the attack that took all his buddies in the middle east.
Did he get counseling from the Army, did they take the time to access this guys mental state before trying to deploy him back in to a war zone? These are things that I don't know. But should be looked into.
 
Maybe the Army let this guy down? He obviously went through a very tramatic situation with the attack that took all his buddies in the middle east.
Did he get counseling from the Army, did they take the time to access this guys mental state before trying to deploy him back in to a war zone? These are things that I don't know. But should be looked into.

I checked the entire thread out again. My fault shooting from the hip again.No excuses on my part.

Above question is very very concerning. I hope we don't see any more of these incidents from vets.
 
Tragic any way you look at it

for all we know it was supposed to be a suicide by cop.....

Basically what I am leaning towards as well.

The only people that failed was his family.

Yes and no. There certainly would have been some warning signs. The
family could have attempted an involuntary commitment hearing --which
could have produced the same end result. Bottom line is the guy could
have gone in for free counseling at the VA after his original 18 month
deployment to afghanistan
and for whatever reason either did NOT at
all or did not seek help again when this latest crisis emerged.

Speaking of Reservists being activated for another deployment:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...6CF9E241324089548625725100509644?OpenDocument

The commander of an Iraq-bound Army Reserve unit says his soldiers got at least three months' warning that they'd be shipping out next month.

He was responding to a complaint from a member of the unit who charged that the soldiers had at first got a short notice and just now were getting an even shorter notice.

.....
Most of Xxxxxx's battalion has already deployed to Iraq at least once, in bits and pieces. This time around, he said, "Nobody who has already gone is being forced to deploy. Even so, of the approximately 300 going, about 25 percent will be deploying for the second time -- or the third time -- as volunteers."

Granted most soldiers who are being FORCED to deploy again are not committing
suicide/having an armed standoff, but could this cause a little too much
stress in some causing them to snap one way or another? YOU BETCHA.
 
ok. i've been accused of jumping the gun and embellishing some information. i just found another news source that says exactly what i said happened....so i guess whoever thought i was wrong can read this and make their own decision. BTW i didn't "embellish" anything, if anything i may have used logic in making determinations as to how this incident probably unfolded. nothing was fabricated by me, the only thing being argued was that i may have put A before B, or B before A, neither scenario of which would have changed the appropriateness of the police response.

here is the link:
http://www.somdnews.com/stories/122706/entetop143520_32137.shtml

A soldier facing a return to combat duty shot at lawmen called to his family’s home in Hollywood this week, authorities said, and he raised a gun at approaching officers before a sharpshooter killed him.

‘‘He said someone would die that night,” St. Mary’s Sheriff Timothy K. Cameron said at a press conference Tuesday about five hours after the midday death of James Emerick Dean, a 29-year-old Army reservist who had served in Afghanistan during 2004 and 2005 and was being activated to go to Iraq.

‘‘This upset him greatly,” the sheriff said, and prompted family members to call police shortly before 10 p.m. on Christmas night to check on his safety, and to warn that he had weapons at the house on Dusty Lane. Sheriff’s deputies and Maryland State Police went to the house, and made a phone call to the lone occupant.

‘‘He said he was not going to come out [and] that he intended to commit suicide,” the sheriff said.

Dean shot three police cars, including one occupied by a lawman who was not injured, during the 14-hour confrontation in which communications lapsed into repetitive comments, the sheriff said, including Dean’s proclamation that someone would die.

‘‘It appeared that they were going nowhere,” Col. Thomas E ‘‘Tim” Hutchins, secretary of the Maryland State Police, said of the negotiations. At about 10 a.m. Tuesday, a state police Special Tactical Assault Team arrived.

Police were aware of Dean’s firearms training.

‘‘We were certainly cautious,” Cameron said.

The standoff continued until shortly after noon that day, when law officers in a military-type vehicle fired tear gas canisters into the house, the law enforcement commanders said, as additional officers approached the back of the house. Dean appeared, carrying either a shotgun or rifle.

‘‘He came to the front door of the house,” Hutchins said. ‘‘He began to raise that weapon.”

The single shot striking Dean was fired by a 46-year-old police sergeant, a 17-year veteran of the agency who had served 13 years with the tactical team, the colonel said.

‘‘The officer had to take that action to protect the exposed officers,” Cameron said.

The vehicle carrying seven officers had open ports on its sides to fire the tear gas rounds, police communications director Gregory Shipley said, and its rear hatch was open.

Hutchins said all other officers on the property would have been in jeopardy if Dean had been given an opportunity to use his weapon.

‘‘It’s a tragedy that was not of our doing,” Hutchins said. ‘‘It was Mr. Dean who decided.”

‘‘Their priority was to end this peacefully with no harm to anyone, particularly Mr. Dean,” the sheriff said.

okay, so now it now appears undisputed that the following occurred, in this order:

1. normal patrol officers arrived to the call of a welfare concern/possibly suicidal person and contacted him (it appears, by phone). they arrive on Christmas evening (Monday).

2. citizen says he is not coming out and is threatening suicide, and will shoot at anyone entering the house. citizen also said someone would die although unspecific as to whom.

3. citizen fires shots at police cars. one of the bullets struck a patrol car occupied by an officer.

4. law enforcement hostage negotiators attempt communication and talking him into giving up for 14 hours

5. on Tuesday 12/26 at around 1000 hours a SWAT team arrives

6. at approximately 1200 hours they pump gas into the house and attempt a rear entry into the residence. citizen comes out the front door with a weapon and allegedly points it at an officer. sniper shoots citizen dead.

shockingly, this is mysteriously the exact order of events that i said probably and logically happened:

SWAT wasn't the first responders. patrol officers responded, got shot at, the bad guy barricaded himself, and then SWAT showed up. if you act like an idiot and shoot at the patrol officers, and barricade yourself, SWAT will probably respond.

you may ask how did i come up with this scenario logically in the now proven correct order? based upon typical police response. evidently something some people here may have little to no knowledge of since their level of expertise of law enforcement response deals primarily with what they read on the internet, watch on TV (reality based TV shows, CSI, and other fictional police dramas), things they make up in their head, and see in the news media. they don't have any real world first-hand experience on what a typical LE agency does, how they do it, and why they do what they do.

it made no sense for a SWAT team to initially respond to a call like this. even if SWAT was mobilized immediately, a SWAT team generally NEVER arrives first. patrol officers beat everyone there because they are closest. SWAT response time even in a major city like New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Dallas, Houston, etc., takes at least 20-30 minutes at best. in those same cities the patrol officers arrive generally within less than 10 minutes if it is a high priority call.

i guessed that SWAT got there after the initial shots were fired. turns out i was right. i reasonably deduced this because generally speaking, if this turns into a barricaded standoff, secondary responder patrol cars park well away from where the incident is occurring. not always so with the initial responding officers who had no idea this was going to turn into a barricaded standoff. it was very evident that the cars that got shot up were those of initial responders, not SWAT. SWAT most likely showed up at a designated command post and were briefed before going out to the actual area to set up. it also says they used an armored vehicle. chances are most of the SWAT guys responded to the command post in various cars, assembled, briefed, and got into the armored car. they probably didn't go to the PD, brief there, get into the armored car, and all drive out there.

so i guess for all of the guys who accused me of making things up or embellishing can see that through logic we could have reasonably deducted the logical course of events.
 
The article still doesn't say what you say it does. The article makes no representation as to when the shots are fired, just that they are fired during the 14 hour standoff. They were probably(likely) fired before SWAT arrived, but the question still remains you are using an article to support what you say that doesn't say what you say it does.

And then someone questions that, you jump all over them and start insulting them.
 
Again with the insults Spreadfire, huh? Can't just simply discuss things?

I don't need anything spoonfed, but as we are all well aware, the media often gets the details and chonological order of events wrong. As they don't explicity state the chronological order, I don't thinks it's too much to ask for it. You are the one making assumptions.
 
again if you feel insulted then i guess you have to live with it. i don't see how i've insulted you for failing to comprehend an news article and use logic in order to understand what occurred. you are arguing such an insignificant part of the story and blowing it all out of proportion. the news article very clearly appears to have been written in the chronological order of events, yet you stand firm that the shots could have been fired after SWAT arrived.

if that is such a big deal then please explain to us the significance of the detail and how that changes what occurred. forget about you feeling insulted. tell us how that is of any significance other than how your feelings were hurt.

okay if you are alleging the news media has the details and order of events wrong please find something in contrary to the published news stories. they all pretty much say the same thing. if you don't believe the news articles, call the police department and ask for a copy of their press release or a copy of their police report. maybe that will help you establish a time line. or maybe it won't. don't police sometimes lie in their reports too?
 
I'm not even arguing the story. I'm arguing that you are posting things as fact that haven't been substantiated and when called on it resort to insults.
 
It seems that SWAT did the job they were created to do, they "neutralized" the threat.
Could the whole thing have been handeled differently? Maybe, but that is with the Leadership of the local Police. We don't know what other options were or were not tried.

Bottom line, DON"T call the Police for help. You call them if you want someone arrested or dead.
If you want help call someone who wants to help (crisis intervention, minister,counselor) do not call the police. They are not there to help.
 
i think i've proven myself right. just because i can logically determine what happened without having to read it on a piece of paper that you even state can be incorrect, due to my experience and training in matters like this, doesn't mean i am wrong. we have already seen that my hypothesis of events was correct.

i dont think at any point i told everyone that what i said was fact. that is something you clearly assumed. what i typed was what i believed happened. i have no disclaimer saying that everything i write is a fact. take it for what you will. if you don't believe what i type then who cares. i certainly don't.

i quoted a news source that was from a more reputable source than Mr. Balko. then i typed my feelings about what appeared to have happened based upon logic and my prior experience and training in this subject matter. if you think that everything i type on THR is a fact then you're sadly mistaken.

the fact that i happened to have figured it out prior to it being published in a news article is moot. if you are arguing that i guessed what happened, you're right.

if you feel insulted that i said that you may be one of the paranoid anti-LE members on THR, then so be it. if you are one then you are one. if you aren't then you aren't. are you really that hypersensitive that you actually feel insulted by me saying you may be a paranoid anti-LE type? if you're fishing for an apology, sorry bud, you're not getting one.

if you're trying to gain some glory here by pointing out that i could logically deduce what happened without having to read it in a news article then so be it. i certainly didn't fabricate anything. i certainly didnt embellish anything.

i think this thread is getting off track by you pointing the finger at someone as making up facts, which i have not, and you being hypersensitive. i think we need to discuss what actually happened in this incident.

it is painfully obvious that what i hypothesized was correct. it appears to be fact. if you can't accept it as fact then ask the police department themselves. arguing semantics with me doesn't change what happened in Maryland.

i think it's best to drop it. you seem to feel insulted and i don't think i insulted you. if you're fishing for an apology, sorry. there isn't anything to apologize about.
 
tlhis is not about SWAT, not about the guy's family

My reaction when I read this was: Microcosm of the nation as a whole.

And then I thought...

This is what happens when bad men ask too much too long of good men.

Maybe I'm full of it; I don't think so.

I know of people who have served in Iraq, more than once, bravely, who have said "Enough!" and planned to 'disappear" if called again and people who are fiercely patriotic and pro-military who would help them do just that. This is not about bravery or loyalty, it is about exploitation and about moral rot deep, deep inside this nation extending to the highest levels.

The System dare not cut a guy like this any slack, lest the whole house of cards, built on obedience, belief, and trust, come crashing down...
 
Putting aside the facts of this particular case, people are too eager nowadays to call the police for all sorts of unhappy, non-violent (or lightly violent) domestic situations. Cops get called to homes for people who are acting a little nuts or for husbands and wives getting in loud arguments ect. Most police are men of discretion or they gradually learn it during the early part of their careers. Some policemen, on the other hand, are like sending a gas tanker truck to fight a forest fire and only make things worse.

People ought to learn to learn that calling the police, armed agents of the state, is not always the smart thing to do when you have a problem. People may wish to consider calling a pastor, a trusted relative or a friend to untangle minor situations of stress. The boys in blue spend all day dealing with inhabitants of the gutter who have to be talked to roughly sometimes, so they often have this "take charge" attitude which is not universally applicable to all situations.
 
The System dare not cut a guy like this any slack, lest the whole house of cards, built on obedience, belief, and trust, come crashing down...

A "guy like this" being someone who has already served in GWOT and was
about to be sent off again. And, if this second send-off was the second
time also as a Reservist and not from prior active duty service, then it can
easily be argued that he was also given an illegal order that set this whole
sequence of sad events in motion.

Bottom line is the guy was boxed in and these are what he saw as his only
"choices": participate in a fruitless search for non-existant WMDs and
democracy-building during a religious civil war in Iraq that only profits
elite insider families, get arrested and imprisoned for failing to report as
ordered for AD along with a dishonorable discharge (his prior service in
Afghanistan made irrelevant), go on the run with a federal pick-up order
issued that even Mall cops get to enforce, or kill himself.

Maybe he should have crossed into Mexico, renounced his US citizenship
and then come back across the border into the US as a Mexican citizen.
Law enforcement would have ignored him, never detained him and he could
have worked in this country until given blanket amnesty along with all the
other felons the elite families seem to value more. The message should be
clear in any case --don't let the home guard sort out your legal problems for
you. If you really want to live, the last thing you want to do is come
charging out of the barn with a pitch fork a la "Cold Mountain" deserter
brothers style.

BTW, great it's a great movie: http://youtube.com/watch?v=0W7F6N0g5iA
 
A "guy like this" being someone who has already served in GWOT and was
about to be sent off again. And, if this second send-off was the second
time also as a Reservist and not from prior active duty service, then it can
easily be argued that he was also given an illegal order that set this whole
sequence of sad events in motion.
I would love to hear the legal basis of your theory that his orders to deploy might be an illegal order, since you claim it can be "easily argued." I'm sure all the legal minds of this country who care about such topics, especially those who are against the US being in Iraq would also love to hear your legal reasoning.

In the military there is a name for folks who make claims about the law, including what is and is not an "illegal order," when they have nothing to back up their claims. We call those folks "Barracks Lawyers," and it's not a compliment.
 
I would love to hear the legal basis of your theory that his orders to deploy might be an illegal order, since you claim it can be "easily argued."

Easily argued except when it comes to the sports bar consumers who decide
foreign policy on AM radio talk shows and the current administration's lawyers.

If his second time is also his second time as a reservist and he did not
sign a COTTAD, then it's illegal. The President gets to call you up one
time as a reservist, not the twisted logic of one year on and one year off
till you die or they decide they no longer need you. But, you're welcome
to start this debate off properly by pulling the Congressional record and
posting the speeches made that put 10 USC 12301, 12302, and 12304 into
law.

Most of Xxxxxx's battalion has already deployed to Iraq at least once, in bits and pieces. This time around, he said, "Nobody who has already gone is being forced to deploy. Even so, of the approximately 300 going, about 25 percent will be deploying for the second time -- or the third time -- as volunteers."

BTW, this is not the first time I've heard this from a unit commander --try the
third time in the past year, with three different reserve units. So either,
there's a basis, they're stupid or they're just lying?

DMF, I swore an oath to the Constitution not the partiya in current control of
the airwaves and signing the federals checks. Anything less than adherence
to the Constitution as the Law of the Land is treason. I wish I could say that
about other people deciding things right now. It's time this was a government
of, by and for the People again. Who do YOU think it should be by? :scrutiny:
 
a friend of mine was deployed to Iraq

an Infantry E7, NG unit.
He now hates GW (only a little less then his officers, which isn't saying very much)
He went in there voting R now he's "never voting again :cuss: "

He might flip out too if sent back.

He was manning a road block with 4 guys and a car was rushing them, warning shots were ignored and they opened fire. Killing a little kid and wounding his father.

He has no idea why the dad ignored the warning shots.

Thank God he was among the first boots on the ground because now
he would have been up on charges or something.
 
http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2434173.php

December 19, 2006

Multiple deployments increase stress, study says

By Michelle Tan
Staff writer

Soldiers who have deployed to Iraq more than once reported higher levels of acute stress symptoms than soldiers serving their first tours, according to an Army report released Tuesday.

Those with multiple deployments also suffered slightly higher levels of anxiety or depression than their first-tour counterparts, but the findings also showed that it is now easier for soldiers to get help in theater and the stigma of seeking counseling is decreasing.

The report, which also looked at suicide rates and soldiers’ access to mental health providers, was put together by the Mental Health Advisory Team III. The team was established at the request of Multi-National Force-Iraq, and the data was collected in October and November 2005 in theater.

This is the third such team to assess soldiers’ behavioral health in Iraq. Similar assessments were made in the fall of 2003 and 2004.

The study “reflects a snapshot of the morale and mental health of deployed soldiers last fall in Iraq,” said Lt. Gen. Kevin C. Kiley, surgeon general of the Army and commander of Medical Command at Fort Sam Houston, Texas.

It also was the first time the team was able to compare data from soldiers with multiple deployments with those on their first tour, and collect data from soldiers tasked with training Iraqi security forces.

A total of 1,461 soldiers, 172 behavioral health providers, 172 primary care providers and 94 unit ministry team members participated in the assessment.

The Army’s efforts to educate soldiers and health care providers, train soldiers to adapt to the stress of combat, and provide resources to troops on the ground are “unprecedented,” Kiley said.

“Our goal is to ensure that every deployed and returning soldier receives all the help they need,” he said.

Other key findings are:

• Almost 19 percent of soldiers who had at least one prior tour in Iraq reported acute stress symptoms, including hyper arousal, avoidance and intrusive thoughts, compared with 12.5 percent of soldiers on their first tour.

• Fourteen percent of those surveyed said they suffered from acute stress symptoms compared to 11 percent in the 2004 study; 17 percent reported a combination of depression, anxiety and acute stress, compared to 13 percent the year before.

• Only 4 percent of surveyed soldiers serving under Multi-National Security Transition Command-Iraq, who are tasked with training Iraqi security forces, reported acute stress, depression or anxiety. The low number is attributed to the fact that most of these soldiers are older and more experienced, with an average of 17 years of service.

• The latest soldiers surveyed were significantly more likely to report knowing someone who had been seriously injured or killed and having an improvised explosive device or other ordnance explode near them.

• Forty-five percent of the soldiers, compared to 39 percent in the 2004 assessment, said they were in life-threatening situations where they were unsure how to respond based on the rules of engagement.

• Length of deployment and separation from family were the top two non-combat stressors for active-duty and reserve soldiers. Those with multiple deployments reported “significantly” higher concerns about deployment length.

The suicide rate in 2005 in the Iraq theater was 19.9 per 100,000 soldiers, a slight increase from the 2003 rate of 18.8 per 100,000 soldiers. However, the 2005 rate is much higher than the 2004 rate of 10.5 for every 100,000 soldiers.

Fifty-five percent of soldiers surveyed said they are confident in their ability to identify soldiers at risk for suicide. A majority of the deaths involved junior enlisted soldiers who were white, unmarried males under the age of 30.

The Army is establishing a suicide prevention team at Fort Sam Houston to further analyze data related to suicides and suicide attempts, while soldiers receive suicide prevention training before and during their deployments, Kiley said.

“We have not made a connection between the stress on the force with a significant increase in suicides, [but] that isn’t to say there aren’t any,” he said. “I don’t have any evidence that there is a correlation between [post-traumatic stress disorder] and suicides.”

Findings from this report don’t include troops who might have PTSD because the soldiers were surveyed while they were still in theater, and PTSD develops only after an individual leaves the combat zone.

“Are we concerned that soldiers on their second or third deployments are at increased risk for PTSD? We sure are,” Kiley said. “Are we encouraged because the stigma is dropping and soldiers are seeking more help? Yes, it’s encouraging.”
 
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