Guillermo
member
Craig is right as usual (except for his love of obsolete transportation, he usually is)
That said, to the average joe, a pistol can be shot more quickly.
That said, to the average joe, a pistol can be shot more quickly.
Revolvers still have their place?
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a TUNED revolver can be fired very very quickly.
I have seen it, and done it myself.
The load has to match the gun and the gun has to match the shooter and the springs have to match the load and the moon has to align...
but for everyone else at the line the auto is faster by a large margin.
I have seen it, and done it myself.
The load has to match the gun and the gun has to match the shooter and the springs have to match the load and the moon has to align...
but for everyone else at the line the auto is faster by a large margin.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
True but the above was in reference to Ed McGivern, who was not the average Joe, maybe not even human!
Probably not so large if the shooter is worth a toot. If you heard me slip-hammering a single action off in the distance, you'd swear it was an automatic. The difference is that most shooters at the line are satisfied to just make some noise. For them, the automatic is definitely quicker and easier to empty.
Zaydok Allen
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You are absolutely right. The ability to deploy and utilize a weapon is critical regardless of where you may be, and the tactical requirements are the same. I guess my point is that if a small revolver is not enough of a self defense weapon and I think I need more gun than that, I would likely avoid the situation. Like you said, liklihood. I try to avoid increasing my chances of needing to defend myself by avoiding places I think may be a bad idea given certain circumstances. That situation may still come up for me, but I feel comfortable with my five shots. Some people don't. I do not dispute that in general, semiautos are superior carry pieces for a lot of reasons. I also admit that I may some day be lacking ammo in a critical situation, but that is a risk I accept as just a part of life. I'm sure if one lived long enough, one would find themselves in the situation that an SBR would be not enough gun.
One thing that is missing from this is that the recoil of a semiauto feels different than a revolver to me, and I am a more effective shooter with a revolver. This in my mind makes it a better carry option to me, and again, I'm comfortable with five shots.
The question from the OP was whether or not revolvers still have a place as ccw's. I think we have established that they do......... Are they the best option? They are for some and not others.
Guillermo
member
I would love to have seen him shoot.
Truly one of the pioneers of stretching the limit of the double action revolver.
I believe there is footage of McGivern shooting. I recall seeing it a long time ago, not on a computer.
Which is to say the gun can be emptied faster, or perhaps more shots in a similar time frame.
But where will all those shots go? "Real experience" suggests all over the neighborhood
. The bottom line still is, "What counts is solid, on-target hits.Otherwise you may get to meet a lot of lawyers, not to mention police investigators.
So, then, if you do end up needing to fire in self defense,...
- How many center mass hits do you think you will likely need to effectively stop someone desperately and violently closing on you with an edged weapon?
- How many shots do you think you will likely have to fire to effect those hits, if that someone surpises you and runs at you very fast?
- How many rounds do you think you would want as a margin of safety?
- What would you do should an accomplice choose to continue the attack?
The problem is, I do not think that a small revolver would be a very prudent choice if I might have to fire three to four shots in rapid succession, and if there is any realistic probability of having to deal with a second attacker after that.
And since such a situation can develop at any service station, parking lot, or ATM near any major thoroughfare, I do not see any way to "avoid the situation."
Yes, we all agree that they "still have a place as ccw's." Perhaps for back-up, or perhaps in pairs. Or maybe when one is accompanied by another armed citizen.
The problem is, anyone who has really analyzed the subject has either come to the conclusion that carrying one small revolver by itself probably does not constitute a very prudent risk mitigation strategy, or has chosen to remain in denial.
Take another look at JohnKSa's analysis. Make your own assumptions regarding hit probability. Here it is again. Or if you want to make some other assumptions, do so and do the math yourself.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
So what, it's a 15-20 shot 9mm or nothing? Maybe a subgun in case things get really dicey??? Sorry but I can't go along with this logic.
Is there any data to support the theory that you really need more than a five-shot snub?
Guillermo
member
depends on several things including, but not limited to, the circumstances and the shooter
DavidE is a SERIOUS threat with a J-frame
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
IMHO, there's WAAAAAAY too much focus on the equipment in internet discussions. I know this is a forum for and about shooting but in a fight, the most important weapon you have is the one between your ears. It will have a greater effect on the outcome of a gunfight than any other factor. Period. A cool head with a 2" .38 will be more effective than an inexperienced, hot-headed idiot with an MP5.
Proper stress placed on the wielder, rather than the wielded.
Admittedly the Old Fuff is not an experienced "shootest," although he has known some who were. But on two occasions in his long but mostly uneventful life he thought he might just become one. In the first incident he was armed with a Colt .32 Pocket Pistol and faced one individual with questionable intentions. In the second there were three, and he was carrying a Detective Special, loaded with ultra-awful 158-grain lead round nose bulleted cartridges.
The obvious lack of superior arms and ammunition didn’t matter, as no shots were fired while the potential muggers established what must have been an Olympic record in the beat-feet, quick-time dash event. They may still be going.
Now looking at the above post by Kleenbore and associated statistics, I would expect the daily news to be filled with sensational stories about numerous plain ordinary folks with a concealed carry license (by whatever name) being found done in by evil bad guys and left with an empty .38 snubby in their cold, dead hand. Truth of the matter though is that such circumstances are very few and far, far between.
Now it is true that those employed in the law enforcement profession, and/or those who are involved in a particularly dangerous environment or occupation might be wise to take some extra precautions. But when this is not the case, I for one would feel a bit silly going around festooned with weapons and ammunition, ever ready for an event that is or was most unlikely to happen.
Somewhere in the middle there is something between being utterly defenseless and going way overboard.
The obvious lack of superior arms and ammunition didn’t matter, as no shots were fired while the potential muggers established what must have been an Olympic record in the beat-feet, quick-time dash event. They may still be going.
Now looking at the above post by Kleenbore and associated statistics, I would expect the daily news to be filled with sensational stories about numerous plain ordinary folks with a concealed carry license (by whatever name) being found done in by evil bad guys and left with an empty .38 snubby in their cold, dead hand. Truth of the matter though is that such circumstances are very few and far, far between.
Now it is true that those employed in the law enforcement profession, and/or those who are involved in a particularly dangerous environment or occupation might be wise to take some extra precautions. But when this is not the case, I for one would feel a bit silly going around festooned with weapons and ammunition, ever ready for an event that is or was most unlikely to happen.
Somewhere in the middle there is something between being utterly defenseless and going way overboard.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Agreed, 100%!!!
David E
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Bob uses two hands to fire blanks, so it's comparing apples and Choco Tacos.
Ed used one hand and fired real ammo, but unless he was more than TWICE as fast on the trigger as World record holder Jerry Miculek, semi-autos are ready for the next shot before the revolver trigger can be pulled by even a super human.
Guillermo
member
David
What do you carry?
What do you carry?
David E
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Ok, apparently I have to spell it out, lest I be accused of visiting Egypt.....
Ed's record is "5 shots in 2/5th's of a second." 2/5th's of a second is .4 or 40/100th's.
Since Ed was a fast shooter and not a fast draw, we will start the time at the first shot.
1st shot at .00, second shot at .10, third shot at .20, fourth shot at .30 and the last shot at .40
So we see how his "splits" (time between shots, is .10, or 1/10th of a second.
This is phenomenal, since Jerry typically had .14 splits when he sets World records.
But remember, Ed was using "state of the art" equipment......at the time. The timer he used was mechanical and could be no more precise than ONE FIFTH or TWO TENTHS of a second. Today's shot timers go at least to ONE HUNDREDTH of a second.
So we are giving Ed a pretty big benefit of the doubt allowing his split time to be 1/10th of a second.
But semi-auto guns typically are ready for the next shot in .07- 08......which is faster than Ed at .10
Ed's record is "5 shots in 2/5th's of a second." 2/5th's of a second is .4 or 40/100th's.
Since Ed was a fast shooter and not a fast draw, we will start the time at the first shot.
1st shot at .00, second shot at .10, third shot at .20, fourth shot at .30 and the last shot at .40
So we see how his "splits" (time between shots, is .10, or 1/10th of a second.
This is phenomenal, since Jerry typically had .14 splits when he sets World records.
But remember, Ed was using "state of the art" equipment......at the time. The timer he used was mechanical and could be no more precise than ONE FIFTH or TWO TENTHS of a second. Today's shot timers go at least to ONE HUNDREDTH of a second.
So we are giving Ed a pretty big benefit of the doubt allowing his split time to be 1/10th of a second.
But semi-auto guns typically are ready for the next shot in .07- 08......which is faster than Ed at .10
All this means jack shih tzu if your precious autos decide to jam. I'm not impressed with your tactics David E.... A proven fact, autos jam more than revolvers.
Well, whatever the chosen assumptions, it is demonstrable via calculation that six is better than five (and by more than might be intuitively indicated), seven is better than six, and eight is better than seven. Two J-frames would be better than that for the defender who knew how to use them and who employed effective tactics, and two Colt D-Frames might prove even better.
There is no way of knowing what one needs until it happens, and no to encounters will yield the same result except through coincidence.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
The demonstration was done with live ammo and the revolver cycled more quickly than the auto, which was a 1911. Even if he did use blanks, it proved that mechanically, a revolver can be fire more quickly than a semi-auto.
David E
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Lighten up, Francis.
My "tactics?" That's funny right there! Maybe you should reread my post. I was only showing the provable facts that are contrary to the assertion that a DA revolver can be shot by someone faster than a semi-auto can cycle. Its not true
I cast no aspersions on revolvers or the peoria that choose them. Odd you somehow thought that I did.
Did you somehow read into my post that I don't like or carry revolvers? My first handgun was a revolver, I've carried one as a cop, won several awards, including various State titles, shooting one, set a Department range record high score for a snubby on the 50 yd course and last week won the State Snub nose Championship.....again.
What was your point again?
David E
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Was it a double action revolver? Did he use one hand? Did the "live ammo" make it to the back stop? Did he fire at least five shots with the revolver?
How, exactly, was the 1911 fired?
Guillermo
member
skidder
you now I respect you but do not disregard David on this.
He spends a lot of time thinking about and practicing everything from pre draw to reload.
You may disagree, but he is the real deal.
Also a multiple grand master in the gun games I believe
you now I respect you but do not disregard David on this.
He spends a lot of time thinking about and practicing everything from pre draw to reload.
You may disagree, but he is the real deal.
Also a multiple grand master in the gun games I believe
Ive always been one of simplicity G. I've never backed down from an opinion, but David has insulted a buddy. inexcusable. I'm a simple logger from NW Montana, but I will not be intimidated by intellectualism, no matter how sweet it sounds to the itching ears that surround it. We can all sound intelligent if we use big words.
This ongoing devotion to accommodate a predetermined escapade designating a perspicacious explanation, forthwith neglecting classicality overtaken by an insidious exhibition of distinguished predominant intellectualism. Acquainting erudition through candor annotation is inestimable in eliminating the overbearing substantiality that detracts from an elementary exposition of an antecedently transcendent conjecture.
I'm not intimidated by "intellect" and never will be.
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