Rick's Rant (much ado about copper)

[Dr. Dickie]

Okay, what is the hardest thing about cleaning your rifle after shooting?
Copper removal. That's easy.
I like to use Sweets, but that is personal choice and I am sure everyone has their favorite.
The trouble is, when you are cleaning copper you cannot use brass products! Brass is made of copper (mostly), zinc, and some lead (usually). So, no brass else you strip the copper from it with your ammonia solvent, and you will see blue (tetraamine) pathes forever.

So brass brushes are out, as are brass cleaning rods.
Not to worry (or so I thought), the geniuses that make the products that we clean are weapons with have provided all that is needed (NOT!).
For rods there are (as brass replacement): Aluminum, Steel, and Nylon.
Let's look at each in turn, shall we.

Aluminum. Good stuff, it is very cheap and will not really scratch the muzzle (think Garand here), so muzzle wear is minimized.
Problem is, it is not very sturdy. It tends to bend when you are pushing through a tight patch. So it is useful, but all that good. I like things that are useful and strong. Aluminum can be used, but it not the best.

Steel. Ahh, now we are talking, no brass, very sturdy. Great stuff, except that it will scratch the muzzle (YES, I have one of the plastic pieces that goes over the end and centers the rod to prevent scratching, and it does work well, but it is a bit of a pain and I like stuff simple). Steel is out, without special adapters to prevent scratching.

Nylon. Now you are talking the perfect solution. Stong, durable, solvent resistant (except for chloronated products, which copper removers do not have), and will not scratch the muzzle.

I get a bit of a chubby just thinking about the delivery of my new nylon 36' cleaning rod; however, when it arrives IT HAS A FREAKING BRASS PIECE on ON THE ENDTO SCREW THE BRUSHES INTO!!!!

***! Who is the Einstein that desiged this damn think. WHY oh why would take such a perfect product and destroy it by adding a brass piece to screw attachments into. Steel, okay it is just a small piece. Aluminum, even better. Damn make it out of depleted Uranium, I don't care JUST NO DAMN COPPER:banghead: .

Okay so I am back to aluminun and steel. I will survive (I am pissed, but I will survive).

To really get the copper you should brush the bore. Can't use a brass brush (that pesky copper again).
No problem, the powers that be have provided They make nylon brushes. WONDERFUL. I order a bag of 50 from Brownells (they are cheap too)--past said woodage is returning.
BUT WAIT!! THE FREAKING NYLON BRUSHES HAVE BRASS WIRE HOLDING THE BRISTLES ON!

***!! MY eyes must be playing tricks on me. THIS CANNOT BE

Is this the work of the same sadistic bastard that put the brass end on my nylon rod? MY brass brushes have steel wire holding the bristles on, why not steel on the nylon brushes?
To the people that make these tools: HAVE YOU LOST YOUR MIND???? I HAVE FREAKING WEAPONS, HERE. LET'S KEEP THAT IN MIND!
You are making me want to climb a tower and start taking out the population. WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?
DO you people even own weapons?:banghead:

End of rant, we now retun you to your regually scheduled program.

 

[ugaarguy]

get a steel tornado brush

 

[dakotasin]

relax. the little bit of brass on the end of a dewey does not turn your patches blue like the copper in the barrel. use a dewey w/ some barnes cr-10, and you'll be done in no time, w/o headache and hassle.

 

[DMK]

Dude, cut back on the caffeine.

Good post though. I'm right there with ya.

BTW, have you tried any foaming bore cleaners? I've been using Wipe-Out. Very cool stuff.

 

[Jackal]

+1 on foam cleaners.

 

[taliv]

you know all those articles where benchrest gunsmiths are observing that they've seen more barrels destroyed by cleaning than "shot out"?

if Dr. Dickie cleans like he writes...

 

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me that folks worry too much. I noticed degradation in my groups from my pet '06. Well, after 30-some years and around 4,000 rounds, I wasn't surprised.

I got some of this new-fangled (back then) copper removing bore cleaning goodie. Used a patch, and no brush at all. Got a couple of blue patches, like the instructions said I would. Not much on the third patch, and less on the fourth. Number five was pretty much clean.

Oh, Happy Day!

So I loaded some fresh ammo, went out on the front porch to the bench rest and cut a three-shot, 1/2-MOA group.

"Brushes? We don' need no steenkin' brushes!"

, Art

 

[hoghunting]

I agree with the others in that Wipe-Out is great. Spray the foam into the barrel, let it stay for an hour or so, then patch it out. No fuss and works very well. It does not harm the barrel as ammonia cleaners can.

 

[WYO]

I'm another satisfied Wipe Out, brushless person. Not only does it work well, you don't get the fumes associated with most traditional copper solvents.

 

[Lupinus]

step away from the caffeine

 

[rockstar.esq]

I think you make some great points. I have always seen some things as being more a factor of convention than original thought. Personally, I have felt that the threaded ends on brushes, jags, etc are stupid given that they are slow to change and tend to loosen up with use. Why wouldn't they just use a detent system similar to those used on key rings. I'm sure someone will pipe up saying that adding something that "complicated" will boost the cost I'd have to point out the carbon fiber cleaning rods availible now. So far I've come to the conclusion that pretty much all the cleaning solutions suck and that for the most part, no one cares. A similar vexation is the whole scope and sights arrangement. The military has worked out a means to use iron sights AND optics where both usable without moving your noggin. See through rings have been the only real option and even then they too suck because either the scope is too high or the sights are obscured or as is the case most of the time, both problems occur together.

 

[cracked butt]

Aluminum. Good stuff, it is very cheap and will not really scratch the muzzle (think Garand here), so muzzle wear is minimized.

Except that all aluminum has a natural coating of aluminum oxide which is much harder than steel and is a very good abrasive. If you truely love a rifle, don't allow an aluminum cleaning rod near it.

Brass is made of copper (mostly), zinc, and some lead (usually). So, no brass else you strip the copper from it with your ammonia solvent, and you will see blue (tetraamine) pathes forever.

Except brass is a neat thing called an 'alloy' which has some neat properties like being more chemically resistant than pure copper. The amount of copper that will be stripped out of a cleaning jag is miniscule compared to the copper removed from a bore.


Methinks that you are really overthinking a very simple process of pushing a patch or 10 down the bore.

 

[Dr. Dickie]

Yes aluminum is very quickly coated with aluminum oxide (that, in fact, is why most people think aluminum will not rust). An aluminum oxide is a decent abrasive, but not when coated to outside of aluminum. If you were to grind it out into a fine powder and hit the bore with it, yes a bad thing.
Yes, brass is an alloy; however, if you do not think you can remove the copper from brass with the copper removal agent you are using to clean the bore, then you are using a very poor copper removal agent. There is a matrix of mostly copper and zinc, but the copper is still easily solublized by the ammonium in the cleaning agent.
A couple of passes through with Sweets, and you can see a visible change to the brass end piece of a nylon rod. And yes, you will get the tetraamine blue of copper coming from the brass piece even after the copper is gone from the bore.
Okay, so I used hyperbole for the sake of a bit of humor in the original post. The point was, when cleaning copper you do not want to use brass, why is that so hard for the manufactors to understand?
Am I a tad anal with my cleaning? Yes, can't help it, it comes with the territory.

 

[dfaugh]

While I have bronze brushes for most of my rifles I rarely used them in the past. Always did pretty good with just a few patches, and a good solvent.

BUT, now that I've discovered the Foaming Bore Cleaners, I don't expect I'll ever use a brush again. They are God's gift to gun cleaning.