In mounting a scope on my rifle today, the gunsmith recommended the scope be canted such that the crosshairs are level / perpendicular for me when I'm shooting offhand to account for my natural cant. I let him do it but I wonder now. I've never heard of this before. Good idea? Bad idea?
Rifle canting question
- Thread starter greg788
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R.W.Dale
Member
I always set mine up till they look straight to me from my POV
This is just my opinion:
My brother is anal about having the crosshairs align to the rifle & bore. I tend to think that is the way to go. I don't think the natural cant will hold up in all positions. The context in my case is if I want to throw a bipod on it, shoot sitting, prone or even if somone else wants to shoot the rifle I would rather have the scope aligned to the rifle. there are a few ways to level a scope including a feeler gauge method.
I find getting the eye relief and cheekweld more critical. Those are more likely to vary on a shot to shot basis. Having a scope canted seems like it would be a problem as range changes. Windage and elevation adjustments may be a bit wierd.
If you cant a lot I'd look for a stock adjustment.
My brother is anal about having the crosshairs align to the rifle & bore. I tend to think that is the way to go. I don't think the natural cant will hold up in all positions. The context in my case is if I want to throw a bipod on it, shoot sitting, prone or even if somone else wants to shoot the rifle I would rather have the scope aligned to the rifle. there are a few ways to level a scope including a feeler gauge method.
I find getting the eye relief and cheekweld more critical. Those are more likely to vary on a shot to shot basis. Having a scope canted seems like it would be a problem as range changes. Windage and elevation adjustments may be a bit wierd.
If you cant a lot I'd look for a stock adjustment.
I've never heard of that being done but I'd imagine that it will give you headaches with adjusting your scope for zeroing.
Is there any reason that you can't correct your form?
I used to have this problem as well - I canted rifles to the right because of old injuries to my right wrist and clavicle. Once I was made aware that I was doing it I was able to correct it pretty easily.
Is there any reason that you can't correct your form?
I used to have this problem as well - I canted rifles to the right because of old injuries to my right wrist and clavicle. Once I was made aware that I was doing it I was able to correct it pretty easily.
Gregg;
I think if you do a little visualization, you'll be able to recognize the problem with canting.
With the rifle absolutely un-canted & the scope mounted properly, the center of the crosshairs is exactly above the center of the bore. Now if we rotate (cant) the gun, with the bore as the pivot point, the center of the scope is offset to the bore. Making the verticle stadia parallel to gravity still leaves the center of the scope offset, see?
At reduced ranges, this probably won't make too much of a problem, but that depends on the amount of cant. At extended ranges, well, you gotta problem there, sure as hell ya do.
900F
I think if you do a little visualization, you'll be able to recognize the problem with canting.
With the rifle absolutely un-canted & the scope mounted properly, the center of the crosshairs is exactly above the center of the bore. Now if we rotate (cant) the gun, with the bore as the pivot point, the center of the scope is offset to the bore. Making the verticle stadia parallel to gravity still leaves the center of the scope offset, see?
At reduced ranges, this probably won't make too much of a problem, but that depends on the amount of cant. At extended ranges, well, you gotta problem there, sure as hell ya do.
900F
if your standing position is very mature and consistent, and you've been shooting with that same cant for years, then yeah.
if you just grabbed the rifle for the first time in the gun shop and the smith saw you tilting it, then no.
if you just grabbed the rifle for the first time in the gun shop and the smith saw you tilting it, then no.
woof
Member
I'm not a real big scope user and not a long range shooter so maybe this is a stupid question: what difference does it really make? The point where the crosshairs, uh... cross is still the same isn't it?
Runningman
Member
Unbelievable!.... canting should be avoided. Me thinks you need a new gunsmith. :banghead:If I am not mistaken a lot of the top High Power shooters have their sights adjusted for their natural body cant. I think David Tubb, numerous time National Champion, came up with a sight design that allows the sights to be adjusted for cant for standing, sitting, or prone. Those sights allow the competitor to adjust to pre-determined settings for each position.
The problem with canting is the sights are at an angle compared to the bore of the rifle. If you think about it, canting is only canting if the sights are at an angle. The bore of the rifle is never canted because it is round. So, theoretically, if your sights are adjusted to be level when you cant the rifle, the sights are not canted, the sights are straight. Your body is canted. If you cant the same every time and your sights are adjusted for the cant, you are not canting at all - your sights are level with the bore. I would say your gunsmith knows what he is doing when it comes to accurate target shooting.
The problem with canting is the sights are at an angle compared to the bore of the rifle. If you think about it, canting is only canting if the sights are at an angle. The bore of the rifle is never canted because it is round. So, theoretically, if your sights are adjusted to be level when you cant the rifle, the sights are not canted, the sights are straight. Your body is canted. If you cant the same every time and your sights are adjusted for the cant, you are not canting at all - your sights are level with the bore. I would say your gunsmith knows what he is doing when it comes to accurate target shooting.
burrhead
Member
As has been already noted, David Tubbs uses canted sights, as do two good friends of mine who shoot high power. One of my buds shoots high master. But what do they know about setting up a rifle; they’re only shooting a 600-yard course of fire.
Reticle Perpendicularity
By Darrell Holland
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/reticle-perpendicularity.php
How Canting Your Rifle Affects Long Range Accuracy
By Carl Taylor
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/canting-rifle-long-range-accuracy-1.php
As for the high power shooters, the rifle is set up for cant, not the shooter's body. Also the sight is shimmed at an equal and opposite angle so that while the sight axis is not inline with the bore axis it is parallel to the bore axis. The shooter can then account for the fractions of an inch to the left or right. The scope on the hunting rifle is not set up as such and will cause problems. Probably not enough to notice at 50 or 100 yards though for most people.
By Darrell Holland
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/reticle-perpendicularity.php
How Canting Your Rifle Affects Long Range Accuracy
By Carl Taylor
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/canting-rifle-long-range-accuracy-1.php
As for the high power shooters, the rifle is set up for cant, not the shooter's body. Also the sight is shimmed at an equal and opposite angle so that while the sight axis is not inline with the bore axis it is parallel to the bore axis. The shooter can then account for the fractions of an inch to the left or right. The scope on the hunting rifle is not set up as such and will cause problems. Probably not enough to notice at 50 or 100 yards though for most people.
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30Cal
Member
Unless all you shoot is offhand AND use a lot of cant (more than say 10 degrees), I would just keep it level. Even then, I wouldn't bother unless you need to make massive elevation adjustments (i.e. past 300yds).
Locating the scope off the bore centerline is a very minor issue.
A canted sight/scope is something I'd consider only for a very specialized rifle. The highpower guys that do it (not many) have to change the cant of the sight during the match for the different positions--takes a lot of data and experimentation to bring it effectively into action.
Locating the scope off the bore centerline is a very minor issue.
A canted sight/scope is something I'd consider only for a very specialized rifle. The highpower guys that do it (not many) have to change the cant of the sight during the match for the different positions--takes a lot of data and experimentation to bring it effectively into action.
Brandon,
Those are some nice articles I learned something new & 1 thing I never saw before. It was good to see some actual numbers.
I shot with some guys out to 600 scoped. The guy that shot the best had one of the leveling devices on his rifle.
Thanks for the links,
WNTFW
Those are some nice articles I learned something new & 1 thing I never saw before. It was good to see some actual numbers.
I shot with some guys out to 600 scoped. The guy that shot the best had one of the leveling devices on his rifle.
Thanks for the links,
WNTFW
woof
Member
I still don't get it. Even if the reticle is off by 5 or 10 degrees you can still adjust to zero. And once it is at zero what difference does it make?
The barrel on a rifle is not parallel to the sights. The muzzle is slightly higher than the breach. If the scope is mounted perfectly vertical, with no cant, the bullet will rise above the line of sight after firing. At some point it will drop back down and be aligned perfectly with where your sights are aligned. This is the range at which your rifle is zeroed. All bullets travel in this arc. Dependign on the gun, and the range at which the sights are zeroed I may have to aim higher or lower to hit my target. But if the sights are not canted the bullet will be in line with the sights at all ranges, unless blown off by wind.
If your scope is canted then the bullet in not only traveling in a vertical arc, but to the left or right as well. If I zero my scope at 100 yards it will hit at 100 yards, but at any other range the bullet will be off slightly left or right. The more extreme the range the more it will be off.
The reason target shooters can get away with it is because they are shooting at known ranges and have their guns sighted in for that range. Canted scopes are a really bad idea on a hunting rifle where you are shooting at multiple and unknown ranges.
If your scope is canted then the bullet in not only traveling in a vertical arc, but to the left or right as well. If I zero my scope at 100 yards it will hit at 100 yards, but at any other range the bullet will be off slightly left or right. The more extreme the range the more it will be off.
The reason target shooters can get away with it is because they are shooting at known ranges and have their guns sighted in for that range. Canted scopes are a really bad idea on a hunting rifle where you are shooting at multiple and unknown ranges.
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woof
Member
"If your scope is canted then the bullet in not only traveling in a vertical arc, but to the left or right as well."
The canting of the scope doesn't change the trajectory of the bullet. If it did I could turn the scope 90 degrees and the arc would be horizontal only
. Windage aside, the bullet is "only" traveling in a vertical arc.
The only significance I can see to canting is if you are using calibrations in the scope to estimate elevation at a distance or actually adjusting elevation in which case you might be moving POI laterally a tiny bit. But the OP was talking about shooting offhand and I doubt anyone shoots offhand and those ranges. And even at those ranges don't most hunters (not 600 yd bench shooters) merely hold an estimated X inches higher?
The canting of the scope doesn't change the trajectory of the bullet. If it did I could turn the scope 90 degrees and the arc would be horizontal only
. Windage aside, the bullet is "only" traveling in a vertical arc.The only significance I can see to canting is if you are using calibrations in the scope to estimate elevation at a distance or actually adjusting elevation in which case you might be moving POI laterally a tiny bit. But the OP was talking about shooting offhand and I doubt anyone shoots offhand and those ranges. And even at those ranges don't most hunters (not 600 yd bench shooters) merely hold an estimated X inches higher?
If your scope is canted and when you fire the gun and the crosshairs appear canted to you, then you are correct.
But if your crosshairs are canted and you get the crosshairs level when you look through the scope before firing you are now canting the rifle to compensate for the crosshairs not being level. Now your rifle is shooting slightly left or right.
But if your crosshairs are canted and you get the crosshairs level when you look through the scope before firing you are now canting the rifle to compensate for the crosshairs not being level. Now your rifle is shooting slightly left or right.
woof
Member
OK, that would be true at distances significantly different from the zero distance only. I'm trying to think of who, before shooting at a deer, checks to make sure their horizontal crosshair looks lever and adjusts their hold on the rifle according before firing. I'm not assuming there is no such person, there may be. It would mean though that he had no problem with the canting while he was zero'ing the rifle on the bench but couldn't tolerate in the field.
I think the bottom line is that canting matters if you are using devices within the scope, like elevation markers in the reticle or turret adjustment, to change POI. If you are just aiming a little high or low it wouldn't matter. It would annoy me though so I just checked my scopes and whew, they look level enough for me
I think the bottom line is that canting matters if you are using devices within the scope, like elevation markers in the reticle or turret adjustment, to change POI. If you are just aiming a little high or low it wouldn't matter. It would annoy me though so I just checked my scopes and whew, they look level enough for me
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