Rifle for learning real markmanship

[ArmedBear]

The keys to learning any sport or skill well are similar:

1. Get good information/instruction.
2. Practice to learn/improve
3. Competition or other test to assess progress

Repeat until really good. Then repeat some more.

To facilitate this, the gun should be low-recoil, really cheap to shoot, and easy to clean.

A .30-06 semiauto is none of these.

Doesn't mean it's not fun...

 

[Clipper]

You do realize that the rifle you'll be issued will not have a pristine bore, or have a match trigger, etc. My own opinion is that you should be shooting something with a less-than-perfect trigger, offhand, until you can hit with confidence. If you can shoot well with average equipment & crummy triggers, you can shoot anything, and it won't matter what caliber it is. You can learn a lot of very valuable lessons from a pawnshop POS...

 

[wooderson]

CZ 452 in the rimfire of your choice (they've got 'em all, I think)
or
CZ 527 in .223 Remington.

 

[Owen]

First, find a smallbore or air rifle club to see if you really like position shooting. The other thing is you will be around people that know what they are doing. They will most likely be happy to answer your questions, and prevent you from traveling down dead ends.

Practice doesn't make perfect, it makes permanent, so make sure you are doing the right thing before you burn it in with a few thousand repetitions.

 

[cracked butt]

Ouch! I thought that I bought my 'last' rifle last night, then someone has to go and post about a really neat rimfire from Savage with lots of nifty add-ons for a low price.:banghead:

 

[mustanger98]

I was thinking of the better condition ones that didn't need as much work

I've heard a lot of good about those Rack Grades too... they shoot a lot better than CMP tells you they will. And you can rebarrel when that becomes necessary. Plus, if you need a better stock than comes on it, Boyds and Ramline offer two decent and affordable options.

 

[mustanger98]

Ouch! I thought that I bought my 'last' rifle last night, then someone has to go and post about a really neat rimfire from Savage with lots of nifty add-ons for a low price.

Yeah. :banghead: Oh, wait, that's a good thing.

 

[WYO]

I'll jump on the .22 bandwagon. My son shoots in an NRA junior program, position shooting iron sighted .22's at small bullseyes at 50 feet. He also squirrel hunts with a scoped .22, which gives him a lot of experience in field positions at varying distances. When the big game rifle comes out, the techniques he has learned serve him quite well at 300 yards, and this year we'll try 400. At 14, he's way ahead of where I was when I was 3 times his age.

 

[itgoesboom]

Get a .22lr rifle, Get a .22lr, what you still haven't gotten a .22lr?

Okay, it ain't a direct quote, but I love that everyone seems to be on the same page.

The .22lr does sound like a good idea, and that savage looks like a good little rifle, and would meet the requirement of having a peep sight.

Honestly, the whole point of this is that if I enlist, I want to score expert on the marksmanship test. Really, i would like to score 40/40.

If it wasn't for the fact that I am considering enlisting, I would be getting a precision rifle next. But with possibility of enlisting, I need to work on my shooting with iron sights.

Here is my concern:

As someone already mentioned, when I qualify, it won't be with a pristine AR-15 right off the shelf, it will be with a used, probably slightly abused M-16 that has seen better days.

So part of me thinks that I should get used to something slightly tougher to shoot well, such as the M1 or M1A, and shoot it out to 600 yards, so that when I get to basic, shooting the M-16 at 300 will be a piece of cake. I already shoot 20-40 rounds of .30-06 a week, but right now that is off the bench, and with a scoped rifle.

Part of me thinks that getting used to an AR-15 is a good idea, since that is close enough to what I am qualifying on, and I could always take that out to 600 as well to get me a tougher challenge. Or I could get a 16" carbine, and shoot it at 300 yards, and with the shorter sight radius, it will make it a little tougher. Learning to clean it effectively, learning the feel of it, and getting used to the sights, etc etc.

Part of me thinks that shooting reduced sized targets @ 25 and 50 yards with a .22lr makes a lot of sense, since I won't be worrying too much about holding high/low with the battle sight zero.

Thanks again guys, you have given me a lot to think about.

I.G.B.

 

[mcwjr13]

Marksmanship

While I agree with the affordability of a .22 rifle and ammo My vote would be for a centerfire cartridge rather than a rimfire if you really get into it you will want to start shooting longer distances and I would recommend a larger caliber such as a .223 .I would also recomend a bolt action rather than a semi, just my opinion.

 

[LAK]

Obtain a copy of The Art of the Rifle, by Col. Cooper - and something like the already suggested CZ 452.

This package should be standard issue to boys under the Christmas tree at the appropriate age and time.

------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[Soap]

Obtain a copy of The Art of the Rifle, by Col. Cooper - and something like the already suggested CZ 452.

This package should be standard issue to boys under the Christmas tree at the appropriate age and time

That is exactly what I was going to post!

 

[Ash]

Since you have all the fun-go-boom rifles that double as home/range/end of the world defense, then a good .22LR might be the perfect thing. The CZ's are good, but keep in mind you can get a Mossberg 320-350 model .22 that has a really nice trigger, detachable magazine, iron sights, and is hammer fired like your Cetme or other military rifles. Best of all, you can get used Mossberg's for very, very cheap. Last one I picked up with a pristine bore in perfect condition, (but was a single-shot only) cost me all of $60. Just about every pawnshop will have at least one.

For example:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=65312838

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=65280585


Or even his big brother (though these can be had cheaper)

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=65561952

Of course, the Garand is an excellent rifle for training. A bad Garand trigger beats a good Cetme or FAL trigger, usually. Plus, they are generally very accurate.

Ash

 

[1911 guy]

.22 rimfire.

There are no advanced techniques. There are only basics applied faster and farther away. This came from, I think, Clint Smith.

Learn the basics of marksmanship as well as unlearn any bad habits with a .22 rimfire. Stretching a .22 out to 100M offhand will teach you about wind doping, sight adjustment and proper form. Master this and then move up to something with more range and power. Go back to the .22 often to reinforce the things you need "reminding" of.

 

[mustanger98]

I notice we always hear from those who think a .22 rifle is only good inside 50yds, but I read about one service rifle club somewhere in southern California where they shoot .22LR rifles out to 400yds. I've shot sillouette matches to 100yds with my 521-T with apertures against a line full of scopes and did well enough to get their attention. I also recall when I was 13 or 14 years old seeing my Grandpa- on Daddy's side- kill a chicken killing varmint out at 300yds with his open-sighted .22 rifle. People don't give .22's enough credit.

 

[cracked butt]

Honestly, the whole point of this is that if I enlist, I want to score expert on the marksmanship test. Really, i would like to score 40/40.

Try NRA rimfire silhouette. If you can clean the course fo fire for this discipline, the military marksmanship test would be a walk in the park.

The method I used to work on my standing position was to put a fairly large yet somewhat challenging target (milk jug) on a dirt berm at 100 yards. You get instant feedback if you hit it, and can see where the bullet hits when you miss. Once you gt tot he point where you can hit this target easily, use a smaller target like a 2L soda bottle, Once you get down to where you are hitting a pop can every shot at 1oo yards, you'll know your rifle very well. I spent a few months doing this a few years ago, and my scores for my highpower standing position went from the mid 60's to the high 90s.

 

[cracked butt]

but I read about one service rifle club somewhere in southern California where they shoot .22LR rifles out to 400yds. I've shot sillouette matches to 100yds with my 521-T with apertures against a line full of scopes and did well enough to get their attention. I also recall when I was 13 or 14 years old seeing my Grandpa- on Daddy's side- kill a chicken killing varmint out at 300yds with his open-sighted .22 rifle. People don't give .22's enough credit.

The farthest I've shot a .22 was 270 yards, which was the farthest shot at the range I could take. Shooting prone with a scoped rifle, once I got the drop and wind figured out, I was banging a 14" gong with every shot- the bullets were litterally being lobbed at the target

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I used to win a little pocket money shooting .22 Silhouette -- although now the game is dominated by cheaters -- people with specially-made chin guns with bloop tubes and so on.

One good thing is that the ram is almost exactly the size of a squirrel. I have shot many a squirrel at around 100 yards.

 

[ArmedBear]

I also recall when I was 13 or 14 years old seeing my Grandpa- on Daddy's side- kill a chicken killing varmint out at 300yds with his open-sighted .22 rifle.

What kind of varmint?

How did he compensate for the bullet drop (around 7 ft., I think)?

 

[Eleven Mike]

That savage looks great, especially because of the sights. However, I put together a 10/22 Carbine with a fiber-optic Williams peep sight for somewhat less. The Savage will likely be more accurate. The Ruger will have more after-market parts (sights, triggers, barrels). You can buy a few ten-rounders for the Rugers and spend less time loading, and more time shooting, as opposed to the five-shot Savage. Then again, you don't have much time for gun-smithing.

If you have the cash, get the AR. (Even though I hate them.) The Army will do a poor job of teaching you marksmanship, and you'll be lucky if you figure out how the sights work. I'd get familiar with the platform now. Recoil is negligible, so it's a decent training tool. And some of those DO come with iron sights.

Later, when the New AWB makes them triple in price, you can trade the AR for something better.

 

[mustanger98]

What kind of varmint?

Like I said, it was the kind that kills chickens.

How did he compensate for the bullet drop (around 7 ft., I think)?

I don't know what his holdover was. What I know is I pointed out the target and Grandpa slung in and nailed it. But I agree it had to be a bit high at that distance.

 

[ArmedBear]

Like I said, it was the kind that kills chickens.

...which is why I asked...

We have bobcats, cougars, coyotes, feral dogs, foxes, and maybe a big bird or two.

I'm wondering what a .22LR will kill at 300 yards, even if you CAN hit it.

 

[Plink]

For learning marksmanship, I'd suggest first off getting an accurate .22. There's no easier or cheaper way to learn the ins and outs. Also, since it doesn't kick and isn't loud, it doesn't fatigue you. You'll pick up a lot of valuable skills such as breath control, trigger control, etc. and it won't cost you an arm and a leg to do so. These skills will be with you when you buy something larger for longer range.

 

[Eleven Mike]

But the AR also does this, if you can handle the cost. It also helps you learn the "ins and outs" of the American military's primary small arm.

 

[Avenger29]

Oh, another thing that I have not seen...

The M16A2 has a horrible trigger, which I have read is due to the three round burst mechanism. So don't get too used to a nice trigger.