Road rage: critique my real-life situation

[budney]

Had an interesting incident tonight. I was returning home from the range, and started merging onto the two-lane highway. Construction work reduced the road to one lane, and blocked off the shoulder, all using barrels. As I was starting to merge, I saw an oncoming SUV going very fast, and jammed on my brakes. He also jammed his brakes, and screeched to a halt. I waited for him to drive on, and merged a minute or two later when there was a break in traffic.

Thinking no more of it, I continued driving the ten miles or so to my exit. At the end of the offramp I stopped at a red light. Suddenly the same SUV roared up alongside my passenger door, and the driver rolled down his window and began screaming obscenities. Apparently he drove slowly (or pulled over) and waited to reacquire me, and then followed me to my exit (which I certainly didn't notice him doing).

Several thoughts ran through my mind. One was the irony that the only gun in the car was a .22 Sig Mosquito, which was unloaded, cable-locked and stowed in the trunk. My 9mm Sigma was home; I got my PA LTCF only this week, and am not quite comfortable carrying in public yet. I wondered whether he was going to get out of his car and attack me, and I wondered whether he was armed. And I wondered, if I were armed, whether I would display a firearm to discourage him from further escalation, or whether that would be "aggravated assault" on my part.

I resolved to floor it if he opened his door or showed other signs of escalation. Meanwhile I refrained from even looking at him. Pro: eye contact would probably trigger escalation. Con: if he had a gun pointed out the window at me, I wouldn't have known it. I ignored him completely, and shortly before the light turned green he squealed his tires and got back on the highway.

If I were armed, I think I would have handled the situation the same, except: I might have taken hold of my gun, or drawn it and held it low and out of sight; I would have peeked to see if he was pointing something at me; and if he left his car and moved toward me, I would have displayed it in addition to flooring the gas pedal. If I showed him a weapon, I would then have called the cops (and a lawyer? That aggravated assault thing again...).

And finally, I regretted that my cheapo beater car had manual locks. If he ran for the passenger door, he might have gotten in before I could lock up.

--Len.

 

[johnny blaze]

A SUV huh?
Most of my near run ins have been with SUV's. imagine that.
I think you did alright. I would have kept an eye on him, as it is hard to tell what he is doing out of sight.
I try to avoid a run in at all costs.

 

[mek42]

I do not yet carry regularly either, still being a fairly new shooter. I've also never been in a situation where I have felt truly concerned about the possibility of being assaulted. However, sincle getting my handgun license I have been giving these matters some thought.

If I was worried about a situation so much so as to be wondering if I'd be drawing a weapon if I had one, it would be well past time to call 911 if all I had at my disposal was a cell phone.

I don't know about PA, but in NY the act of pointing a loaded firearm (and possibly an unloaded one, I don't recall correctly) at someone may be prosecuted as assault with a deadly weapon - no shot need be fired. So, legally, drawing down on someone is more or less equivalent to shooting them.

As far as self defense within a car, unless you're locked in traffic or otherwise unable to move the car, the car itself is a much more effective weapon than a firearm as well as being a vehicle of escape. If he had run for the passenger door, drive forward, turn into his vehicle if close enough, anything to deny him access to the door.

Again, if someone has been yelling at you and subsequently starts following you, call the police - at the very least it is on record that you are concerned for your well being if something should happen requiring a response from you. If I was in a situation where I was being followed after a verbal altercation I would say that I was being stalked by the individuals who had just verbally assaulted for me and was thus in fear for my safety. Road rage gets a lot of publicity - it is not irrational to fear for your safety in such an incident.

 

[gomer]

The best thing to do is pull over on the side of the road. If he pulls over also and exits his vehicle to "attack" you.. there isn't a jury around that would convict you

 

[SomeKid]

And I wondered, if I were armed, whether I would display a firearm to discourage him from further escalation

The best advice I was ever given regarding drawing:

Do not draw, unless you plan to shoot. Do not shoot, unless you plan to stop the threat, even if it means killing. Don't kill someone, unless they are trying to kill you.

Regarding eye contact, it does not always escalate the situation. I had a POS follow me around one night (4amish). Couldn't outrun whoever it was. Pulled into a parking lot, turned and faced them, and gave quite possibly the angriest stare I have ever given a person. He suddenly was less interested in tailgating me around backroads at 60mph. (And, my position was totally unarmed, and a dead cellphone. Angry stares and a bluff was sadly one of my better alternatives if I wanted to avoid a fight with unknown person(s) at 4am.)

 

[Archer1945]

Gomer, I hate to say it but you're living in a dream world. The fact you pulled over would be used as an argument that you were the one who started the problem, after all the other person might have just been stopping to see if you need help when you pulled a gun and started shooting. The only thing that might possibly help you would be of others had seen the person pull along side you and start cussing you out. Even then unless the person came out of their vehicle with a firearm you could be in big trouble. It would not help one bit if you purposely put yourself in danger just so you could shoot someone, no matter what they had done previously.

 

[Doggy Daddy]

johnny blaze

A SUV huh?
Most of my near run ins have been with SUV's. imagine that.

Hmmmm... it also seems that Dodge drivers are noticeably more agressive than others. Anyone else notice that?

Let the flames begin! <G>

 

[gomer]

Yes, I may be LIVING in a dream world.. but I'll never die in it from a crazy cracked out road rager. If I set on the side of the road minding my own business and crazy dude comes to my vehicle wanting to instigate, he has just entered the Castle Doctrine that my state has passed. I am minding my own business in my own vehicle and have been approached by a person wanting to do me harm... I do NOT have to retreat.

 

[BullfrogKen]

gomer, before you get too wound up in this thread, I would direct you to read the "sticky" at the top of the S&T forum regarding "bloodlust".

 

[REJones]

Good 'nuff!

Hi Len,

I think you did just fine. Eye contact seems to be one of those personal choice things. If you didn't feel comfortable making eye contact, you probably wouldn't have given a very effective stare down. That's worth more trouble than minding your own business.

Next time, you might want to consider possible escape routes for your vehicle. Actually, it's a good defensive driving precaution to always have somewhere to go planned in advance. Keep enough space between your car and the car in front of you that you can see their entire back tires - that way you should have enough room to steer around them if blocked. Situational awareness on the road goes a long way, too (I'm guilty of lapses, here) as you'll spot both road rage afflicted drivers (rare) and ordinary hazards (all too common).

And remember, you run into these road rage guys once in a while. They have to drive with one everywhere!

 

[dralarms]

You did almost everything great. the only thing I would have done is run the light if it was clear enough for me to retreat. There's no "duty" to retreat in TN either but I don't want to push the issue if I can make an escape. I had an 18 wheeler follow me for 30 miles flashing his lights and pulled off the same exit I did. I never even slowed down at the stop sign, barrelled right through made my left and left him sitting there at the sign. I don't know what he wanted and don't care (I did notice later that my wheel centers were missing, one might have flew off and hit his pressious truck)

And BTW I was armed with my XD40 subcompact, an extra mag, and had my S&W 457compact in the travel gun safe with an extra mag. So I was not "afraid" I just knew that if I got rolling on the road before he did he could never catch up to me, no matter what his intentions.

Oh I drive an SUV, I don't cuss you, I don't use sign language, I try to mind the rules of the road, IE not driving to close, using turn signals, ETC. If you want road rage try living and driving in Germany for 18 months.

 

[jad0110]

Hmmmm... it also seems that Dodge drivers are noticeably more agressive than others. Anyone else notice that?

Yeah, I thought that was just around here. Dodge trucks seem to have two throttle positions: "On" and "Off" ! I have a friend who had a '99 Dakota 318 that he drove like that. He always wondered why his mileage was in the single digits and why his back tires wore out 2x as fast as the fronts . He always seemed to have molten chunks of rubber dripping from the wheel wells. No offense to you Dodge pilots out there, I know all of yall aren't like that .

Back on topic,

Keep enough space between your car and the car in front of you that you can see their entire back tires - that way you should have enough room to steer around them if blocked.

Excellent and simple defensive tactic. I do the same thing myself. It's also nice for the driver in front of you if you are rear ended - no need to involve them.

Edited to add: I would also add that everyone should try to keep their vehicle in top working order, if you can afford to do so, in case you have the option of making a quick escape from a road rager. I ran the tires on my car down to the wear indicators (just being cheap ). Later I thought, "what if my life depended on those tires on a wet road?" Also, try to attain a good feel for your vehicle's handling and braking limits/characterstics. Just don't break any laws or do anything stupid doing so .

I agree with the other posters, don't show you firearm unless you are in a position of legally using it to defend yourself from death or serious bodily harm (NC). One of my father's coworkers was driving somewhere late one night when he made a minor booboo: he failed to yield to a big crew cab pickup (4 door), but caught himself in-time. He raised his hand up and gave a little wave, as if saying "sorry, my bad". Not good enough for the 5 passengers in the truck.

They stopped, got out and began approaching his car, cussing him the whole way. One was armed with a pry-bar and another with what he said appeared to be a hammer. At that point, he raised his 1911 45 ACP that he kept beneath his driver seat and showed it to his would be attackers (he did not point it at them, he wanted them to clearly see it).

They got back in the truck faster than they got out! No more trouble. I sincerely hope none of us never find ourself in a situation like this to begin with.

 

[budney]

[blockquote]You did almost everything great. the only thing I would have done is run the light if it was clear enough for me to retreat.
[/blockquote]
You raise a good point: apparently my respect for the law is so ingrained that I was contemplating becoming the victim of a violent assault, but considered running a traffic signal only as a last resort.

--Len.

 

[lee n. field]

And finally, I regretted that my cheapo beater car had manual locks. If he ran for the passenger door, he might have gotten in before I could lock up.

Cheapo beater car == tactical advantage.

 

[Oldsportokie]

Attitude?

Hmmmm... it also seems that Dodge drivers are noticeably more agressive than others. Anyone else notice that?

The Dodgers Are just trying to give the other two time to get ou of the way. Mountain climbers and rock climbers are just hardheads, I use a RAM 4X4.

 

[Cosmoline]

Run the red if you can. Phone the police. Be prepared to defend yourself if he continues to chase.

 

[dralarms]

Yea, I mean if you look worst case you get a ticket from the cop you didn't see, best case, you get away from a potention deadly situation without firing a shot.

I have run a red light right in front of a Tennessee state trooper. Didn't think much of it at the time since there was an ambulance barrelling down on my rear view and really NEEDED a place to go. So I gave it to him. Tropper never even looked at me other than to watch to make sure I didn't get hit while making a lane for the ambulance.

In 1990 there was a terrible accident on the interstate here, killed bunch of people, closed the interstate for a long time. Anyway I was traveling on the road parrell to the interstate and saw an ambulance coming, I proceded to put a dodge van (the full sized with the extention on it) into a ditch, the guy with me though I was gonna roll it, all I could think of was "what if that was me needing help"?

 

[Avenger29]

I had a Dodge truck driver try to hit me on purpose- as I was pulling out onto a four lane highway, he, being in the far left lane, tried to come over on me, then quickly went into the other lane, and tried to hit me with his rear quarter pulling back into the rightmost lane. He had a Delaware tag. Durn yankees coming down here

Anyway, I think you did good. Just start increasing your awarness. I am glad to see that your first thought was using your vehicle to escape. Don't show your weapon unless you intend to shoot. You need to be concentrating on driving, anyway, and not the best way to brandish

 

[copper4262]

Alot of good posts here - as a gun toting cop i would have to say that you should obviously call 911 anytime you get into a situation like that - first it gets the police on the way and it also can give you a chance to get your conversation onto a recorded line - say while your talking to the dispatcher mister badguy decides to approach you or worse yet assault you - you have it all on a tape at the police station - if you have to use your weapon it will be on tape that you gave him/her verbal commands to leave you alone and to back off (you did give the verbal commands right?? what do you think any witnesses are going to remember about the situation later?? one thing they always hear is someone screaming for help or to back off)- it also gives you a chance to let the cops have a second by second play book about what is going on before they get there - as an officer there is nothing better then to have a victim on the phone with dispatch detailing the entire situation before I arrive - then i know who is that bad guy - whos got the gun - and what has happened while en-route -what the plate numbers are of the perps suv

And obviously - if you can - RETREAT - i dont care if you have an obligation to by your state law or not - if possible get out of the situation - as gun owners we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard - it may not be fun but being ethical is always better in the long run - you have no idea what the other person might actually be up to - believe it or not many "road-rage" incidends were mistaken by the supposed victim and then made worse by the victim - personally i would rather just get out of there then find out what was really going to happen - if I cant get out - well then deal with it when the time comes. Many of the readers here live in places that require retreat - so if you decide you can't retreat you better be darn sure that all other options have failed - even then you could be prosecuted - i dont care what kind of laws your state has - self defense can be twisted and if nothing else what about the perps family? think you can win a civil suit in your state?? And say you beat the rap and are found not guilty - by that time you might be broke from lawyer fees and there are many people who still wont believe your innocent - how are you gonna face your former friends and co-works- your neighbors etc if they are convinced your a cold blooded killer?? its just something to think about - my best advice is to blow the light and hope there is a cop watching so you can turn him onto the whack-job following you - honestly- whats the worse that could happen?? a ticket?? even I'v had tickets - and trust me - if you take the ticket to court you have at least you have a 50/50 chance of getting it dismissed -

Well thats my 2Cents worth

Now go out there and be safe!!!

 

[budney]

Thanks, Copper. Lots of really helpful posts on this thread. Yours also made me thing: being pulled over for running a light would have its upside in this case: even if the officer disbelieved my story and issued a citation, the BG is unlikely to hang around in the vicinity of a cop with whirling lights.

--Len.

 

[Colt]

and tried to hit me with his rear quarter pulling back into the rightmost lane

Seems most road ragers have a poor understanding of physics. The "close cutoff" is the best example. If they contact your car with their rear quarter panel while attempting to pull in front you you, it's they who will spin out of control, not you.

Just be careful avoiding them after they lose control.

 

[innerwrath]

well gomer..im glad you dont live in canada here are tons of juries who will convict you.the law here sucks! it protects the criminal more then the victim,you cant shoot a guy even if he brakes into your house in the middle of the night! i guess you are suppossed to ask the crook oh excuse me sir..are you armed?are you going to kill me or my daughter? because if you are im going to have to shoot you with this gun...thats if you dont mind of course....or would you like a nice cup of tea?you know its cold out there....meanwhile all those who make the law live in areas of little crime and got lots of money to defend themselves with if they themselves break the law.....sorry,i could go on forever with this....

 

[Zero_DgZ]

I have a stack of moron driver stores that you wouldn't believe. Try delivering pizza for a living for a while and/or driving more than an hour each way to the office across state lines and you rack them up pretty quick.

I won't launch into them unless somebody wants me to, though.

 

[gezzer]

Get a Cell phone. Use it to call 911 leave it on while dealing with the idiot. If you run him over, smash him to protect yourself You are the victim.

 

[gunsmith]

drawing would be ok if he didn't see it

keep it low and unobservable, you call the cops first.
Eye contact may or may not be a good idea.
I expect an apology when some numbskull makes a mistake, and have apologized to diffuse situations (even when I was right)
A simple "wave/I'm sorry" may have been all that was needed