Ron Paul in the debate TONIGHT!

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JWarren,

I agree that an American Nationalist (Socialism) would be very different than the German National Socialism. But it would still be bad. Bombing the crap out of dusky Middle Easterners would be one aspect of it, as well as harassing Muslims domestically, so there is a racist component to it. But the bigotry would also embrace Mexicans and Canadians, and anyone else not born here.

Nor would it stop there. A "nationalist" would also regard "lack of patriotism" as a crime--and anyone who doesn't support his policies would of course be unpatriotic.

I'd much rather have a leader whose priority is liberty, not jingoism.

--Len.
 
Has Dr. Paul ever articulated his thoughts on President Thomas Jefferson's undeclared war against the Barbary (pirate) states in the Mediterranean 1801-1805?
 
Budney,

I appreciate your analysis and comments. I don't know if we each are applying a different definition to nationalism, however. I'll do my best to illustrate what I am getting at, and I hope I do it well enough to make sense:


Bombing the crap out of dusky Middle Easterners would be one aspect of it

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Our relations with other countries is born of economics often enough. Would we bomb the crap out of someone if we were more nationalistic? Maybe. But this is hardly different that what we are doing currently.

as well as harassing Muslims domestically, so there is a racist component to it.

Not necessarily. My view of nationalism is representing the interests of US Citizens. We are a melting pot of cultures, religions and ideologies. I am speaking of citizenship, not religion. A muslim US citizen is a US citizen. Period. The same may be said for a Methodist, Hindu, or anyone else.


But the bigotry would also embrace Mexicans and Canadians, and anyone else not born here.

I disagree here as well. A naturalized citizen is exactly that-- a citizen. A person not born in the US but has become a citizen has essentially tied his future, his fate, and his loyalty to the US. They have "chosen a side" and invested of themselves into this country as well as accepted the responsibilities of such.

A "nationalist" would also regard "lack of patriotism" as a crime--and anyone who doesn't support his policies would of course be unpatriotic.

Again, this is presumption that seems to draw on totalaritan governmental entities as inspiration. What makes someone unpatriotic is when they have chosen to advance another country above that of their own. Disagreeing with policies is hardly unpatriotic-- this is one of the cornerstones of our history. I disagree often with some of the policies of our administration as well as the past few.

It is obvious that too many History Channel programs on Nazi Germany has usurped the definition of nationalism. Sad, really.

I look at nationalism similar to my owning my own firm. I paid a small fortune for my building, signs, advertising, keeping the bills paid, etc. If I found out one of my employees was selling the products of my competitor out of my office, his butt would be on the street. You see, I am the one who has invested into this company. I must place the interest of my firm over that of my competitor. And an employee who has no invested interest in my firm who advances the position of my competitor at my expense has NO right to be part of my firm.

This notion seems to be lost in the US today. When we place the interest of others who have no vested interest in this country-- or other countries themselves-- over those of US citizens we have lost everything our founding fathers bled and died for.


-- John
 
Why dont we stop supporting Israel and other states?

Oh I don't know... maybe because Israel is a diamond of hope sitting atop the mound of dung that is the middle east. Maybe because Israel would take our back in a second. Perhaps it's because they want to preserve the holy land, whereas the Jihadis want to blow it up. Or could it be that they are the older religion from which most Americans derive their religion? Or could it be that if we didn't support Israel, the Jews would face a second genocide (or perhaps some of you think it would be their first?)

I find the latent anti-semitism on this thread distrubing. Now we know which of you post at Stormfront as well.
 
I’ve really never seen what would be called Anti-Semitism on this board. There are a lot of Jewish members here. While I am not one and cannot speak for them, they seem to be fairly satisfied with the climate of THR. I could be very wrong, however.

The quote you referenced did specifically mention Israel, but it also mentioned other countries. Now, I am not so naïve that I don’t understand why we give aid to some countries, but that statement isn’t over the top. While I haven’t read the raw post, I can understand why some are not thrilled at how much we give to other countries.

Disagreeing with giving aid to Israel specifically doesn’t make one anti-Semitic. A person holding that view may have a number of reasons that do not take into account one way or the other nationality, race, or religion. They may have gone through a pro’s and con’s list that doesn’t add up to supporting aid to Israel.

I am up in the air as to how I feel about what is in our best interests. I may well support them—and I may well see the consequences of doing so. I may decide that it is or isn’t a consequence I wish to accept. We all should have the right to make those judgments in supporting ANY country. It is not appropriate that people who do not place Israel’s interest over our own country are automatically labeled as Anti-Semitic. It that is a criteria for being Anti-Semitic, then the very definition of Anti-Semitic is watered down and useless.

Just my two-cents from someone who doesn’t post on Stormfront.
 
It that is a criteria for being Anti-Semitic, then the very definition of Anti-Semitic is watered down and useless.

It is watered down and useless. Ignoring how lame it is to play the race card in the first place the fact is that Arabs are Semites, too. It seems that quite a few people here and elsewhere have no problem bashing Arabs or other acts of anti-Arab prejudice. Anyone who does so can rightly be called an Anti-Semite. Conversely, not all Jews are Semites because Judaism is a religion not a race. I dated two Jews, one was fully Czech, the other German. Slavic, Germanic, bottom line is European Caucasian and not Semite. Similarly there are Muslisms who are not Arabs and not all Arabs are Muslims. By the time anybody gets around to playing the race card to support their argument they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.
 
Rudy wants to get rid of all guns, drive the gun makers out of business and make it impossible for anyone to get a gun. He wants anyone who trys to own a gun to go to prison for a long time. Clinton wants to implement the AWB and get rid of all handguns (at least for now).

That statement right there is just as accurate as saying Ron Paul thinks the USA is to blame for 9/11.

Guliani isn't the perfect candidate, but he's a far cry from hillary. If you take him at his word, he believes gun control should be left up to the states, which isn't inconsistent with anything he's done in the past. If you don't believe him then theres still the pressure from his political base.

Hillary has neither. Thats the difference and thats why if it comes down to those two, Rudy is the better person for gun rights. This of course ignores taxes and the general ability to lead, which he does have. Hillary has achieved everything off of her husband. At least Rudy has built a career on his own starting with a stellar record as a US attorney.
 
I was serious when I asked why we support Israel? I am not anti-semitic and I do not post at Stormfront. I ask why we send moeny to countries outside of the United States? Why not give that money back to the American taxpayers? And why dont we let the state of Israel be the state of Israel on their own without American backing?
 
If we cease supporting Israel financially (and I'm all for it) we should likewise cut off Egypt, Russia, the UN, the IMF, etc, etc, ad nauseum.
 
Geeze, with that kind of savings we could afford to take care of our own American poor, uninsured and downtrodden, plus get a fat tax cut! What's not to like? As long as we have homeless, starving poor people without medical care here in this country we have no business providing those services to foreigners.
 
And why dont we let the state of Israel be the state of Israel on their own without American backing?

Because if we don't help them out financially (ie militarily), they'll cease being Israel after the Islamofacists slaughter them.

Conversely, not all Jews are Semites because Judaism is a religion not a race.

Tell that to the president of Iran who wants to wipe Jews off the map. I'm pretty sure the Jihadis don't care if you're Jew by blood or Jew by choice. They'll saw your head off either way.
 
Quote:
And why dont we let the state of Israel be the state of Israel on their own without American backing?

Because if we don't help them out financially (ie militarily), they'll cease being Israel after the Islamofacists slaughter them.


Quote:
Conversely, not all Jews are Semites because Judaism is a religion not a race.

Tell that to the president of Iran who wants to wipe Jews off the map. I'm pretty sure the Jihadis don't care if you're Jew by blood or Jew by choice. They'll saw your head off either way.


But neither of those statements indicates Anti-Semitism in someone who doesn't support Israel as a country. Again, I am not saying that I do or do not. I AM saying that we have to maintain some ethical validity and consistency here. The knee-jerk name-calling and labeling of persons holding differing views should be reserved for our politicians in the '08 Race.

I have a good friend who is a broker I've worked with. Incidentily, he is a orthodox Jew. Would I have been considered Anti-Semitic if I chose not to do his work for him when we were co-workers? Would I be considered Anti-Semitic now that we both own our own firms now and are therefore competitors? Should I bow out from getting a client because I am potentially taking one from him?

It is essentially the same arguements.

It would probably be best to try to meander back to the topic of this thread. I only chimed in because we must resist the urge to use such labels liberally.


-- John
 
Has Dr. Paul ever articulated his thoughts on President Thomas Jefferson's undeclared war against the Barbary (pirate) states in the Mediterranean 1801-1805?
I dont know, but why would it be an issue? His foreign policy isnt totally isolationist, it is to avoid nationbuilding and being world police. Jefferson acted against the Barbary pirates because they directly affected our trade routes and were greatly affecting our economy. They tried to make us pay ransom for using international waters and attacked ships that didnt give in and bribe them.
 
Rudy's appeal to base emotionalism showed that Paul had him bested rationally and intellectually.

Dr. Paul is right, 9/11 was a consequence of choices made by the .gov, choices we LET them make.
 
Geeze, with that kind of savings we could afford to take care of our own American poor, uninsured and downtrodden, plus get a fat tax cut! What's not to like? As long as we have homeless, starving poor people without medical care here in this country we have no business providing those services to foreigners.

If only there was someone who wanted to drastically cut our deficit spending to take care of Americans...HMMMM......

On the other topic, a lot of you underestimate the Israelis. We're not doing any good over there, and believe me, they can take care of themselves.
 
On the other topic, a lot of you underestimate the Israelis. We're not doing any good over there, and believe me, they can take care of themselves.

I highly suspect you are correct, sir.

-- John
 
Originally posted by Prince Yamamoto:
Because if we don't help them out financially (ie militarily), they'll cease being Israel after the Islamofacists slaughter them.

If you think the US is concerned with genocide you are mistaken. Look at most of Africa, Tibet, and other countries. The only reason we got into East Europe is that the UN pressured us.
 
guys....Ron Paul is the man if you disagree with his policies you are basically disagreeing with the founding fathers....doubt me? go read the Constitution, Federalist Papers and quotes from Jefferson, Madison, and Washington.

I can't believe you guys are falling for this 'slapped down stuff'....the moderator STOPPED paul from responding to guiliani.

Why is it that the leaders and owners of Fox news have ties to the pentagon?

And 3rd parties get in because the government basically makes it impossible to get into.

As a police officer, i see the country headed into a socialistic, fascist police state....i was always denying it but the proof keeps slapping me upside the head.

Are you really going to not vote for paul b/c of one or two issues you don't like?

He needs to be the next president period! And the REASON he didn't sound smooth or whatever is b/c ron paul speaks from his heart and not rehearsed like most of the other guys....

look how much time they gave to socialistic, pro gun control, big gov., big taxes guiliani?

think about it!

DB
 
guys....Ron Paul is the man if you disagree with his policies you are basically disagreeing with the founding fathers....doubt me? go read the Constitution, Federalist Papers and quotes from Jefferson, Madison, and Washington.

I can't believe you guys are falling for this 'slapped down stuff'....the moderator STOPPED paul from responding to guiliani.

Why is it that the leaders and owners of Fox news have ties to the pentagon?

And 3rd parties get in because the government basically makes it impossible to get into.

As a police officer, i see the country headed into a socialistic, fascist police state....i was always denying it but the proof keeps slapping me upside the head.

Are you really going to not vote for paul b/c of one or two issues you don't like?

He needs to be the next president period! And the REASON he didn't sound smooth or whatever is b/c ron paul speaks from his heart and not rehearsed like most of the other guys....

look how much time they gave to socialistic, pro gun control, big gov., big taxes guiliani?

think about it!

DB

Right on!

Hey 246 Post, Jesus.
 
oh and who cares is who 'debated' better i mean who really cares!!!!!???? I want principled men holding that kind of power, not rehearsed shmoosers....like saying clinton is more charming than paul so i'll vote for clinton....NO!

DB
 
Has Dr. Paul ever articulated his thoughts on President Thomas Jefferson's undeclared war against the Barbary (pirate) states in the Mediterranean 1801-1805?

Actually if you go back to what I posted earlier on Paul's ideas for effective responses to the 9/11 attack that he wrote in October 2001 you will see that Paul, transported back to the dawn of the 19th century, would have had congress issue a letter of marque and reprisal against the Barbary pirates for preying on shipping. In fact this was one of the major uses in history for letters of marque and reprisal. Paul's position has never been one of pacifism. His position is don't start any trouble and there won't be any trouble. Big difference.
 
His foreign policy isnt totally isolationist, it is to avoid nationbuilding and being world police.

Not "totally", just "mostly". He might have studied medicine, but his training in economics is not very evident.
 
Geeze, with that kind of savings we could afford to take care of our own American poor, uninsured and downtrodden, plus get a fat tax cut! What's not to like? As long as we have homeless, starving poor people without medical care here in this country we have no business providing those services to foreigners.

That is the Democrat mantra. I just wish the loudest, clearest voice wasn't the CBC. Don't kid yourself on the tax cut. That concept is totally incompatible with the rest.
 
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