Ron Paul in the debate TONIGHT!

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We support middle eastern terrorist states(Egypt, Saudi Arabia). We dropped Afghanistan on it's rear the second the Soviets pulled out(and let islamofacsists take over). We backed Saddam in the Iraq-Iran war. We supported the Israeli occupation of Palestine. I fail to see how any of these actions would do anything but encourage terrorism. Having said that, when you have alot of power, and you use it to influence conflicts, the side that wasn't backed and their sympathizers and backers, are going to be justifiably angry with you.
 
Paul's claims are errant nonsense.
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Thats nice but you are wrong.
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Your right, but I'm going to backup your thought.

You would think Rudy "I saved the day 9/11" Giuliani would have read the 9/11 commission report, but I guess not. It backs up Ron Paul 100%.

Here is an excerpt:

"The 9-11 Commission report detailed how bin Laden had, in 1996, issued "his self-styled fatwa calling on Muslims to drive American soldiers out of Saudi Arabia" and identified that declaration and another in 1998 as part of "a long series" of statements objecting to U.S. military interventions in his native Saudi Arabia in particular and the Middle East in general. Statements from bin Laden and those associated with him prior to 9-11 consistently expressed anger with the U.S. military presence on the Arabian Peninsula, U.S. aggression against the Iraqi people and U.S. support of Israel."

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=195576

This is what Ron Paul was referring to when he said "If you would have read the reports".
 
Ron Paul is great on the gun issue. On Foreign Policy he is lost. His comments last night on Sept 11 sounded very kook fringe...in fact I suspect it will be remembered as the moment his candidacy in this race died. You will note no applause after he said that. As far as the Republican primary he is done. He may run as a Libertarian now...

I have a lot of libertarian sympathies and tendencies. However the Libertarian party really is ready for prime time where it comes to dealing with issues abroad. Pity as they are so good on defending the Second Amendment.
 
Simpleton, mouth-breathing reasoning is what is fed to the masses--it has always been this way.

Why did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor? The standard answer you were suppose to recite in 1941 (and for long thereafter) was basically some variation on: "Because they are dirty, stinking treacherous Japs!" Just go back and watch the movies made during the war--that was the only "thinking" that was acceptable.

The truth, of course, was a bit more complicated--but nobody wanted to hear it at that time (and many still don't). Human nature doesn't change very much.
 
We support middle eastern terrorist states(Egypt, Saudi Arabia). We dropped Afghanistan on it's rear the second the Soviets pulled out(and let islamofacsists take over). We backed Saddam in the Iraq-Iran war. We supported the Israeli occupation of Palestine. I fail to see how any of these actions would do anything but encourage terrorism. Having said that, when you have alot of power, and you use it to influence conflicts, the side that wasn't backed and their sympathizers and backers, are, of course, going to less than happy with you.

Bottom line though, we are the 800lb gorilla in the room when it comes to the world stage, and as such we make a great target. With any missteps we are going to trod on someone's toe, giving them a reason, in many cases justified, to be angry with us. Given our active role in influencing world affairs, and taking into account that no one is perfect, messing up in inevitable. What I think our greatest problem with respect to our foreign policy is our eagerness to shrug off mistakes and label them as inevitable and thus irrelevant. If someone bombed the terrorist down the street, and killed my sister/brother/mother/cousin/uncle/aunt/whatever in the process, and said "oh well, it happens.", I'd have a perfectly good reason to be angry. Add to that that it was done by foreigners, ignorant of my culture, language, and history, and it's just salt in the wound.
 
Whether we should have gotten involved with the shah of Iran doesn't matter now. We've got tens of thousands of very bad people who want to saw our heads off, and that needs to be addressed. A good leader is going to have to address that.
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How about we put somebody in there who won't turn the 10's of thousands into tens of millions in the future, or leave them hanging out there and create some more somewhere else?

At some point, all of us learn enough to start "making things right" when we mess up, and that means fixing the root cause not the symptom. I don't consider "surging the messing-up" to be very productive. I certainly don't teach my kids it's very productive to redouble a counterproductive/failed effort in the hopes of magically producing better results "next time".

If I wouldn't even let my little kids make that mistake, why should I cast my one precious (I'm not a Dem sterno-bum, only get 1) vote for somebody who can't figure that out?
 
If someone bombed the terrorist down the street, and killed my sister in the process, and said "oh well, it happens." I'd have a perfectly good reason to be angry. Add to that that it was done by foreigners, ignorant of my culture, language, and history, and it's salt in the wound.
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I think that is the exact point RP was trying to make. And Giuliani's response of "we were attacked because we attacked Iraq is absurd" ummm. If you bomb/screw around with a country(and/or neighboring countries), are you seriously going to expect them to bend over and think oh well America knows whats best for us. Yeah Right. Get Real.
 
Rudy is a 911 Whore. Ron Paul is right and no one wants to hear it, it is painful sometimes when you hear the truth, all that applause was sheeple who felt it hurt so bad to hear what the crazy man just said about 911.

People I have decided to donate ALL the funds profit and expenses from selling these decals to Ron Pauls champaign. I have never given to a campaign before this one and I have already send a few 20 spots his way. So help me out and get some original patriotic decals for a hell of a good price.

Ron Paul 2008
 
Simpleton, mouth-breathing reasoning is what is fed to the masses--it has always been this way.

Why did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor? The standard answer you were suppose to recite in 1941 (and for long thereafter) was basically some variation on: "Because they are dirty, stinking treacherous Japs!" Just go back and watch the movies made during the war--that was the only "thinking" that was acceptable.

The truth, of course, was a bit more complicated--but nobody wanted to hear it at that time (and many still don't). Human nature doesn't change very much.
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But not MUCH more complicated.

The Japanese wanted to enslave the Chinese and offload their surplus population, and were willing to kill millions of Chinese to do it. Every step they took in pursuit of that goal got them bogged down farther in a war they couldn't win, and from which they were too stupid and arrogant to extricate themselves. They dressed this cross-border gangsterism up in a lot of high flown rhetoric and nonsense about "fighting communism" and "the National Polity". It was simply sheer greed and avarice, coupled with no small amount of sexual sadism.

We wouldn't play ball in their ongoing rapine in China. In addition, racists as whacked out as any in contemporary Alabama ran Japan.

The Japanese convinced themselves that we wouldn't fight.

We convinced ourselves that the Japanese couldn't fight.

We were both wrong.

It turned out they were more wrong than we were.
 
If countries would look to their own dark, diseased hearts instead of looking for someone to attack to take out their frustrations, foreign policy would be a lot easier. It sucks that there are so many terrible human beings, religious institutions, and so much national zealotry that a good, free country like America has to be sucked in and tarnished by it.

The only reason I ever tolerate the America hate is that maybe we should know better. Not that it's our direct fault, but we have to go the extra mile to pull along the neanderthals. Asking the fundamentalist Muslim terrorists to shape up is like beating your dog if he pees on the floor because you forgot to take him out. We have to be above the fray and take the criticism, but it is certainly difficult.
 
Whether what Paul said was correct or kooky doesn't matter. He made the ultimate political kiss of death that even the most liberal of Democrat won't do. Whatever chance he had to win (read:none) is now done.

Those of you voting for him, I hope the warm fuzzies you get from it will last you through an obama/hillary presidency and the very real possibility of a permanent AWB. Most people who are in the "all or none" crowd really don't truly understand what none is like.

On a side note, while I do agree with some of Paul's criticisims of our foreign policy, his position (that its not constitutional) has no merit. Because foreign entanglements and nation building are bad does not make them unconstitutional. In fact, every time he quotes washington he makes himself look stupid. If someone is advising you to avoid foreign entanglements then inherent in that statement is that one has the power to engage in them.

Then again its a libertarian doctor interpreting the constitution.
 
Dr Paul owned that debate. I have yet to see (or read) a single person explain how anything he said was incorrect. Bin Laden is going to hate us no matter what. However, the reason that he is successful is because he has the support of the people around him and we do not. Our Gov't has continually followed policies that alienate us from the rest of the world without even considering the consequences of doing so. The War on terror will not end as long as Bin Laden and his ilk have the support of the people that we continually piss off.
 
Certainly the Japanese wanted to expand their empire--and were willing to kill millions to do it. This was horribly wrong, of course--but no different in kind than what the United States had done less than 75 years previously.

The US, of course, wanted to blunt Japanese expansion for a number of reasons, including most directly its impact on our interests. So we imposed a crippling oil embargo on them (sorry, OPEC did not invent the tactic). So they had a relatively small window to decide to fight or back down.

As you say, they grossly miscalculated.
 
I think he could have been more articulate, but Ron Paul is still right and I think that many people recognize that. Yeah, many of them may be Democrats but conservative Democrats have long been a core constitency of republicans when it comes time to pull the voting lever. We've been driving a lot of traditional republican constituents away with this neo-conservative stuff. If this wasnt the case, why the hell did we lose in 2006?

What Ron Paul said is only controversial because the republican party line is currently based on self deception. Thank god that Rudy put him back in his place! Imagine republicans thinking the emperor was naked!
 
Romney said that he believes in the 2A but also supports an AWB.
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how the hell does that work???
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He is trying to pander to the gun control and the hunters at the same time.

The fact is the 2A was not written for hunting. Which is sad because alot of 2A supporting politicans claim that are all for the hunting and go on and on about how they wont mess with hunters.... Well its kinda hard to protect all of the other amendments with only single shot bolt actions isnt it?
 
Admit American can be wrong? I find it refreshing.
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Thank You. I would rather have someone admit that we screwed up, it happens, life isn't perfect. Yet, it seems the others want to stick their head in the sand and say, "what bombing and building army bases is other countries doesn't make people like us?, thats absurd!"
 
...yes Romney said that he believes in the 2A but also supports an AWB.
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So did GWB, so what. He's trying to reach a broader base. He won't sign anything. He's just saying he will. He wouldn't DARE sign an AWB, his approval ratings would be in the toilet. Neither would Rudy. The fact is Ron Paul got his head handed to him on a silver platter last night.

As I've posted elsewhere, I think to support Ron Paul now is suicide for our cause. If people associate Ron Paul with pro-gun, they'll bring up, "Oh, yeah, pro-gun, like that nut Ron Paul who blamed us for 9-11". I'll bet you money he gets used against us now. You're going to get comments like:

* "First he blamed us for 9-11, now he wants us all to have machineguns [insert comment about Ron Paul's poor stance on foreign policy]"

* "Of course he wants schoolchildren to be armed. That crazy man also blames us for terrorist attacks." [insert comment going against ccw in schools]

* "Ron Paul blames us for terrorism and now wants to allow unrestricted access to terror weapons." -they'll pull this one out for AWs and 50bmg.

Get the idea? He's bad publicity.
 
A smart philosopher once said: "Those who do not learn from History, are condemned to repeat it." We bring up Mosadegh and the bombing of countless places and people in the Middle East because -for a long-term solution to the mess we're in today- we need to stop doing exactly that. When you notice you've dug yourself into a deep hole, first thing, STOP digging! Does anybody believe that, when we bomb the next wedding party, the survivors will love us, and not hate our guts? As long as the US supports Israel unconditionally, the Arabs will hate us. As long as we give political, financial and military support to corrupt oligarchies, like Saudi Arabia and Egypt, their oppressed peoples will hate us. Rightly or wrongly, that's the Middle East reality. We don't have Samoans and Ainus suicide-bombing us, because we haven't meddled in their lives (yet). Cause and effect. Action and reaction. I think this is the point Dr. Paul tried to make.
 
PY

So now I'm supposed to let my support be dictated by the stupidity and ignorance of others.

And then we wonder why principled positions never get upheld in our system.

No thanks. But you content yourself with the flip-flopping infomercial guy.
 
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